Masturbation: A sin?

[whatever]

I just saw a television discussion about it, what is the Christian believe?

[Corvus]

The fact that a woman may or may not be a real person is irrelevant, since you have to use your own imagination to "lust after her," and so the problem obviously resides in the effects of the act on one's self, not in the effects of the act on the woman.

No, I think the woman's existence to why what we are discussing can be considered a sin. The verse suggests to me that a connection is being made between the cause of the sin, which is lust, and the effect of the sin, which is adultery, and, perhaps because one leads to the other, they are considered essentially the same. This is somewhat like the 7 deadly sins of Catholic doctrine, which systematically condemns the sorts of feelings, with one or two exceptions being actual actions, but most being emotions, that lead us to go against God's commandments.

As far as becoming aroused by inanimate objects, that is unnatural. Anyone that is sexually stimulated by a stone or a flower has changed from being in a normal state to an, you guessed it, abnormal state. A common term that comes to mind is perversion. But I'm not accusing you, Corvus. We're all just trying to get our questions answered. The thing is, the human body works like it is supposed to, and that is not how it is supposed to. Thus the same concept applies to homosexuality.

Is this a sin? I have to leave right now so I'll make it quick. I believe God created sexual organs for one purpose, that is, sex. Any kind of substitute goes against His purpose.

And someone will probably ask me why I believe that, and I can answer some other time.

Whenever you are ready, FresaRoja, I would be interested in hearing it.

[otseng]

A question I've asked a million people and have yet to get an answer that isn't based on one's individual beliefs...

Who decides what constitutes normal?

Good question. Worthy of being discussed in its own thread. Perhaps you can start one on this?

[virago81]

I'll throw my .02 in, but first:

no one can masterbate and think of mowing the lawn it is impossible

You seem very convinced of this. How is it that you can be so sure?


For the Christians: I think the answer to the masturbation question has to depend on context. I can think of at least two contexts where masturbation is totally appropriate by Jesus' morality and biblical morality in general:
(1) Suppose a man or woman is widowed. They will naturally miss their spouse very much. Since they cannot actually make love to their spouse, they might masturbate while remembering making love to their spouse. Can anyone really think that Jesus would somehow object to this?

(2) Suppose a married couple, in exploring their sexuality with each other, decide to masturbate in front of each other to observe what the other person considers pleasurable. It's difficult to see how this would violate any scriptural precepts.

I think the question for Christians has to do with objectification. When people masturbate while thinking of anonymous women on porn sites or while thinking of someone they know or while thinking of anonymous body parts, they are objectifying the opposite sex. And the belief in the Christian community is that we should not treat other people as objects, that we should view other people as God's children with their own intrinsic worth, and not as a means to our satisfaction.

The opposite of objectifying people is relating to them as people. So for Christians, sexual expression is valid in the context of a relationship, specifically a committed one.

[FresaRoja]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, Corvus. If there were only a few more hours in each day...

So it sounds like I have been misunderstood. I was saying that whether or not the woman/man a person is fantasizing about is real has no bearing on its status of being a sin. Are we clear, there? Masturbation is a sin whether you are thinking of actual people or made up figures like cartoons or whatever. That's all I was saying, which was in answer to your post earlier.

Perhaps I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself in that narrow window of time I had, but here's a little more detailed explanation:

Surely God must do things for a purpose. When he was designing our bodies (which is "in his own image", BTW) he including these sexual organs and the (sometimes incredibly) strong passions that come with them for a reason. My belief is that his purpose was to provide a way for us to multiply as well as a way for a husband and a wife to become closer together. And, as I said, any sort of substitute for that does not fulfill God's purpose, and any action not meeting God's purpose must needs be a sin.

And that's it.

[Corvus]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, Corvus. If there were only a few more hours in each day...

So it sounds like I have been misunderstood. I was saying that whether or not the woman/man a person is fantasizing about is real has no bearing on its status of being a sin. Are we clear, there? Masturbation is a sin whether you are thinking of actual people or made up figures like cartoons or whatever. That's all I was saying, which was in answer to your post earlier.

Perhaps I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself in that narrow window of time I had, but here's a little more detailed explanation:

Oh, I had some inkling of why you believed masturbation to be a sin, but I had thought you were basing your answer off the verse provided.

Surely God must do things for a purpose. When he was designing our bodies (which is "in his own image", BTW) he including these sexual organs and the (sometimes incredibly) strong passions that come with them for a reason. My belief is that his purpose was to provide a way for us to multiply as well as a way for a husband and a wife to become closer together. And, as I said, any sort of substitute for that does not fulfill God's purpose, and any action not meeting God's purpose must needs be a sin.

It's a valid opinion, but I would think it unrealistic to divide our lives into sin and not-sin based on whether our actions meet God's purpose or not. I would think there are many actions in our life that are not sins and are not purposeful, but are strictly neutral in terms of good or bad. Any form of recreation fits under this category, and I would argue so does masturbation.

[scorpia]

Okay, I'm kind of continuing this from another debate. I don't think masturbation of itself may be a sin....... virago and spongemom both had points. But considering Jesus' quote on lusting after another woman being adulterous..... well it is; if you have a partner and they catch you staring at another they may be to some extent jealous. Yes they may have done the same thing but then they would feel guilty and would often choose not to do it, opting to be loyal to their partner. But this staring seems somewhat minor.......

But what really bothers me is the extreme lust..... you have examples where people say it's okay to think of another person when they have sex with their partners. It seems pretty disloyal to me; I'd expect the partner to get offended or hurt by this.

I have seen for myself men getting jealous or at least somewhat hurt from this type of thing....

[scorpia]

Girls dont mind men fanatsizing on them

Well i do

.Its obvious from the fact that they too fantasize and also wear dresses which are meant for showing their body parts and make them look attractive to men.They wear make up only to make them appear more seductive and sexy and they wont mind men fantasizing on them

Like.......... NO! I don't wear dresses or make up because i want a man fantasizing about me I do it because it might be hot, or I might be going to somplace formal and want to look best to everyone. I'm not trying to be seductive, nor am I looking for sex

and even of women do mind men fanatasizing on them, in spite of them fantasizing on them,--its not the correct thing.Because it means that girls are being hypocritical and also they have to learn to live by the rules

Well then they are hypocritical, and have to live by such rules and practise what they preach. it is just as wrong for the woman as it is for the men. even I dislike fantasizing about men..... it still feels disrespectful, and prefer to brush such thoughts out of my head

If being honest harms everybody concerned why do you want honesty?

It causes much less harm then hiding the truth

If i tell some girl i fantasize on you, it will end up in me being murdered.

I wouldn't murder you In any case, I find myself less offended by the more crass yet open men then the ones who keep everything in private. I trust the latter far less.

If somebody tells this to some presidents daughter it might even create world wars.So you want people to talk whatever they feel and create all sort of problems in the world?

What if you don't, and someone finds out then? Same situaution

Eg. Someone had a father who died in a car accident, but she wasn't told, the cops probably didn't want to traumatise her. But then pictures of her dead father were shown on the news and she found out in the worst and most shocking way. In the end that was way worse then if the cops came and told her outright.

And if you think some things are going to remain private forever..... God isn't the only one who sees all. Big brother is watching

what?should a student admit to his professors who give him bad grades that he wanted to kill them but he wont do so?

The proffessors will find out anyway. Same situation

surely me confessing all my thoughts to them and they confessing in turn will kill relationships and trigger so many unpleasent consequences.Imagine daily 100 men coming and confessing to a girl that i fantasized on you yesterday and describing that in detail

It is still far better than keeping it in secret and having the girls find out anyway

women dont if men masturbate on them because they too do the same thing

Yes, they are cheating too. Thanks a lot, I stop lusting after youse to respect you guys. I'd really doubt you'd want me masturbating over you. I am NOT going to do that. You will be offended, and rightly so. And I will still dislike this fantasizing, yes, even if i do the same thing, because I know it's wrong, and I have as little excuse as the men. Even if they do lust after me, I would still not do the same to them because it would be disrespecting them.

How do my fantasizing on women means cheating them

I argued this in the above post

I talk about LEGAL acts that harm none.How are they sin?please come up with examples.

I would...... but then;
a. there's the age restriction of this site and
b. I am not going to talk about people behind their backs

to counter this you always quote illegal acts as examples

What about not talking about people behind their back? Like above? Even ifthey do the same to me, I will not justify it by doing the same thing to call it even.

i wont mind anyone lusting on me

Sure you won't

but i fully accept the rights for gays to be gays.Maybe you consider this bad since you have a mindset that considers being homo is bad

I accept that right too.... they can do that, gay isn't necessarily bad. I even gave the example of how they might not like it if the opposite sex lusts after them..... i'd expect they wouldn't.

please give their names.who are those great men?please.i am eager to know their names.

a. there are many times I myself decide not to lie or lust
b. there are many people who I meet who decide not to lie. Don't know about lust.....
c. What about priests or nuns? Not just the christian ones, either.

he did not lust so you also dont lust

Yet there are many times I do not lust. But then Jesus was still so much better

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

Girls dont mind men fanatsizing on them
Well i do

can you explain to me then how you will choose your would be or boy friend without sexually desiring him?

Like.......... NO! I don't wear dresses or make up because i want a man fantasizing about me I do it because it might be hot, or I might be going to somplace formal and want to look best to everyone. I'm not trying to be seductive, nor am I looking for sex

you are not looking for sex.I did not say so.people dress attractively to seduce the opposite sex.This is the universal truth.For debate sake we can say no.But reality is without opposite sex there isnt any need for being attractive.

Well then they are hypocritical, and have to live by such rules and practise what they preach. it is just as wrong for the woman as it is for the men. even I dislike fantasizing about men..... it still feels disrespectful, and prefer to brush such thoughts out of my head

so you will live and die as a virgin for your whole life?what benefit do you derive by brushing aside such thoughts from your mind?its as natural a feeling like hunger and thirsty.How can you remove a basic physical craving of your mind and say its sin?

honesty causes much less harm then hiding the truth

telling a girl i fantasized on you causes less harm than hiding it?

I wouldn't murder you In any case, I find myself less offended by the more crass yet open men then the ones who keep everything in private. I trust the latter far less.

you mean to say that you have never had any sexual thought in your mind?If you say "no" you arent telling the truth.If you say "yes" then have you confessed it to the men concerned?

Eg. Someone had a father who died in a car accident, but she wasn't told, the cops probably didn't want to traumatise her. But then pictures of her dead father were shown on the news and she found out in the worst and most shocking way. In the end that was way worse then if the cops came and told her outright. .

Fathers death is a news which ultimately has to be told.But fantasizing isnt something which ultimately has to be told.and in this case if somebody tells a girl "I fantasized on you" results would have been outrageous.

And if you think some things are going to remain private forever..... God isn't the only one who sees all. Big brother is watching ?

is the big brother going to tell the girl that i fantasized on her?

It is still far better than keeping it in secret and having the girls find out anyway?

find out and what happens?They too would have fantasized on somebody and wont mind.simple.

Yes, they are cheating too. Thanks a lot, I stop lusting after youse to respect you guys. I'd really doubt you'd want me masturbating over you. I am NOT going to do that. You will be offended, and rightly so. And I will still dislike this fantasizing, yes, even if i do the same thing, because I know it's wrong, and I have as little excuse as the men. Even if they do lust after me, I would still not do the same to them because it would be disrespecting them.

you are not disrespecting anybody by doing it.you are cheating yourselves.First of all its physiologically and scientifically impossible.so why talk about impossible things?And tell you what..if you think "i wont think about lust in my mind"--that thought will always come to your mind.

I talk about LEGAL acts that harm none.How are they sin?please come up with examples
I would...... but then;
a. there's the age restriction of this site and
b. I am not going to talk about people behind their backs.

dont tell names,but just acts.

What about not talking about people behind their back? Like above? Even ifthey do the same to me, I will not justify it by doing the same thing to call it even.

my friend,its not talking behind back.You will have honest opinion about others.But if you tell it face to face to him, it will break the relationship and he will be very unhappy.But you will share your opinion on him to somebody else.Now this is done to avoid so many unpelasant situations.This is not sin.telling things face to face and hurting somebody is a sin.

I accept that right too.... they can do that, gay isn't necessarily bad. I even gave the example of how they might not like it if the opposite sex lusts after them..... i'd expect they wouldn't.

you will be highly disappointed.Gays wont mind if opposite sex lusts on them.why should they?Many gays would be bisexuals too and many would have become gay after they lusted on women and suddenly situations made them gay.nobody is gay by birth or there isnt a single gay who has never lusted on women.

please give their names.who are those great men?please.i am eager to know their names.
a. there are many times I myself decide not to lie or lust
b. there are many people who I meet who decide not to lie. Don't know about lust.....
c. What about priests or nuns? Not just the christian ones, either.

You decided fine.But were you able to control lust?Havent that thought crossed in your mind even once?Can you live without getting that thought in your mind for your entire life???--dont say "yes"--its just impossible.

and anybody can decide not to lie.have they implemented it?they cannot.what preiests and nuns?Nobody have ever conquered lust.Maybe god,but nobody else did.even priests and nuns are sinners according to christianity,arent they?

Yet there are many times I do not lust. But then Jesus was still so much better

ya he was better.so dont compare god with us and expect us to be as perfect as god.

[scorpia]

can you explain to me then how you will choose your would be or boy friend without sexually desiring him?

Falling in love?

But reality is without opposite sex there isnt any need for being attractive.

What about pride?

How can you remove a basic physical craving of your mind and say its sin?

Simple..... I think of how disturbing it would be to him, and brush the thought away....

telling a girl i fantasized on you causes less harm than hiding it?

In a way yes.......

you mean to say that you have never had any sexual thought in your mind?If you say "no" you arent telling the truth.If you say "yes" then have you confessed it to the men concerned?

M'okay, you got me That's true. But now I live on fear on the day that he may find out. And he probably will

.But fantasizing isnt something which ultimately has to be told.and in this case if somebody tells a girl "I fantasized on you" results would have been outrageous

But the girl will find out eventually

is the big brother going to tell the girl that i fantasized on her?

a. maybe you should try getting adware before going to another porn site (if you do) :p
b. Beware of fox shows about catching people in an act of infedelity
c. Don't talk about it to anybody
d. Never fill in forms that seem just like cute questionarres about yourself

find out and what happens?They too would have fantasized on somebody and wont mind.simple.

Yes they'd mind

And tell you what..if you think "i wont think about lust in my mind"--that thought will always come to your mind.

And i will push it away

dont tell names,but just acts.

Maybe then there was a guy who was this girls' good friend. Just friends. They wouldn't go into this sort of thing cause they were too young. Sometime after though the two drifted away but some other girl caught the guy in the middle of masturbating, and eventually this news reached the other girl, and she got really creeped out and upset because she trusted him out of all others not to, plus she was young and didnt do anything of the sort herself yet. So she got upset

Sometime later though she grew up and realised hey he might not have evn noticed her, and that most men control themselves anway and it's dumb to get paranoid

But if you tell it face to face to him, it will break the relationship and he will be very unhappy

.........Plus the guy could of at least told the girl or somthing, instead of pretending to be innocent >:(

you will be highly disappointed.Gays wont mind if opposite sex lusts on them.why should they?Many gays would be bisexuals too and many would have become gay after they lusted on women and suddenly situations made them gay.nobody is gay by birth or there isnt a single gay who has never lusted on women.

m'oooookay then. Not that dissapointing though

Havent that thought crossed in your mind even once?Can you live without getting that thought in your mind for your entire life???--

Maybe not, but I try all the same

even priests and nuns are sinners according to christianity,arent they?

Yeah, but I've expected they'd be able to control their lust somehow

[worship-your-mother-she-i]

can you explain to me then how you will choose your would be or boy friend without sexually desiring him?
Falling in love?

How do you fall in love without judging his physical attractiveness?And are you going to zero in on one guy and desire him alone and marry him alone and be loyal to him alone(physically and mentally) for the rest of your life??Thats not possible.Falling in love without physically desiring someone isnt just possible.

But reality is without opposite sex there isnt any need for being attractive.
What about pride?

In a world without opposite sex there wont be any need for pride or any other feeling.It will be a barren desert.

How can you remove a basic physical craving of your mind and say its sin?

Simple..... I think of how disturbing it would be to him, and brush the thought away....

But having that thought in the first place itself is a sin.Even having that thought for 1 second is being disrespectful and a sin according to you.Brushing away it is fine.But even thinking about that might be a sin.

telling a girl i fantasized on you causes less harm than hiding it?

In a way yes.......

Then you have to implement your concept in your life.First of all henceforth you should not even think sexually about a male in your whole life.If that thought crosses your mind even once about a male (who is not your would be or husband) you have to confess it to him.can you implement it?Can you practice what you preach?

you mean to say that you have never had any sexual thought in your mind?If you say "no" you arent telling the truth.If you say "yes" then have you confessed it to the men concerned?
M'okay, you got me That's true. But now I live on fear on the day that he may find out. And he probably will

so why not confess to him as you argue?

But fantasizing isnt something which ultimately has to be told.and in this case if somebody tells a girl "I fantasized on you" results would have been outrageous
But the girl will find out eventually

in my whole life I havent heard of a girl finding it out unless the man himself told her or is being foolish enough to keep her photo or something with him.But such a man is usually fetish and i am not talking about mentally disturbed cases.I am talking about normal people.

is the big brother going to tell the girl that i fantasized on her? a. maybe you should try getting adware before going to another porn site (if you do) :p
b. Beware of fox shows about catching people in an act of infedelity
c. Don't talk about it to anybody
d. Never fill in forms that seem just like cute questionarres about yourself

I visit porn sites often and i dont think its offense under law.And fox shows catching during infidelty????Thats pretty illegal.If anyone snoops into my private affairs hes gonna sued to his last penny.And I dont talk about my private fantasies to anyone.Most of the people in world are like that.

find out and what happens?They too would have fantasized on somebody and wont mind.simple.
Yes they'd mind

then they are hypocrites.when women themselves have lustful thoughts on men,why do they mind men having lustful thoughts on them?So that argument is invalid.

And tell you what..if you think "i wont think about lust in my mind"--that thought will always come to your mind.

And i will push it away

but you had it for 1 second.So according to you, you should confess it to the man concerned.can you implement it?Impossible.

Maybe then there was a guy who was this girls' good friend. Just friends. They wouldn't go into this sort of thing cause they were too young. Sometime after though the two drifted away but some other girl caught the guy in the middle of masturbating, and eventually this news reached the other girl, and she got really creeped out and upset because she trusted him out of all others not to, plus she was young and didnt do anything of the sort herself yet. So she got upset

Sometime later though she grew up and realised hey he might not have evn noticed her, and that most men control themselves anway and it's dumb to get paranoid

first of all unless that boy is foolish enough to masturbate with that girls photo in his hand the news wont leak out.And even if it does, if hes so fooliosh enough to be caught like this...then also no problem.If i were that boy i would answer the girl like this"if you havent fantasized on any guy in your whole life for not even a milli second,then punish me..."

Havent that thought crossed in your mind even once?Can you live without getting that thought in your mind for your entire life???
Maybe not, but I try all the same

you cant.why waste your energy and efforts?If you get them,you have to confess to the concerned guy.Is it a practical solution?

even priests and nuns are sinners according to christianity,arent they?
Yeah, but I've expected they'd be able to control their lust somehow

they are also humans like you and me. and "controlling lust somehow..." that "somehow" isnt possible unless they alter their body medically.It simply isnt possible.Priests are expected to control their behavior not thoughts.