Predestination vs. Free Will

Nirvana-Eld · Post by **Nirvana-Eld** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:39 am

My understanding is this.

(I'm going to say God "is" for this topic to end confusion.
God is omnicient. He knows how everything is going to turn out. So wether we like it or not, God predestened everything. So in what way do we have a free will and does it even count in the face of obvious predestination? That's it in a nutshell.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:53 pm

Curious wrote:I personally do not believe that the self can exist after death or prior to the necessary machinary of the brain. I believe the self is the perception of our individuality and nothing more and that after death it is lost. You say that a perception does not have will but why must it? The brain is quite capable of making decisions and we perceive these decisions as our own. If the brain decides upon a course of action, it wills the body to carry out the action. We interpret the intricate workings of our brain as mind and thought and as long as we are free to carry out it's preferences then the will is free. Obviously the body and environment limits the will but, within the boundary of its programming, the brain is free to act as it will.
Some schools call this self the pseudo-self as distinct from the spiritual self. In terms of self-awareness it is this "pseudo-self" that we are aware of. Regardless of whether you believe in a spiritual counterpart or not, it remains that the decision making is driven by the biological nuts and bolts.

It seems as if you are proposing the idea that the self is contained entirely in the brain and its workings. If then, there is a non-determined will, what part of the brain exists outside of the known laws of physics?

Curious · Post by **Curious** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:02 pm

McCulloch wrote:It seems as if you are proposing the idea that the self is contained entirely in the brain and its workings. If then, there is a non-determined will, what part of the brain exists outside of the known laws of physics?

I don't suggest that any part of the brain exists outside the laws of physics. The will is determined by the brain and is free to act within those limits just as I am free to act within the constraints of my own environment.

Timeaisis · Post by **Timeaisis** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:52 pm

If pre-destination exists, then all of our decions (at least about God and religion) are pre-determined by God before we are even born. If this is the case, then we cannot be held accountable for any of our decisions since, technically speaking, we are not making any of them. So, then, how can we have a Heaven or Hell for saints or sinners if we ourselves don't have the capability of placing ourselves in one of them. We would not be the sinners if predestination existed. Rather, it would be God who shapes our fate so that our sins were not determined by us, but by God. In this case, no human would deserve Hell, since no one is a sinner without the freedom of choosing to sin. I can't see heaven or hell existing with a pre-destined fate. There is neither a reason or a use for the two.

harvey1 · Post by **harvey1** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:40 pm

Timeaisis wrote:If pre-destination exists, then all of our decions (at least about God and religion) are pre-determined by God before we are even born. If this is the case, then we cannot be held accountable for any of our decisions since, technically speaking, we are not making any of them.

All of our decisions are pre-determined in the future because it is us making the decisions in the future.

Timeasis wrote:We would not be the sinners if predestination existed. Rather, it would be God who shapes our fate so that our sins were not determined by us, but by God.

I disagree. It is because we exist in the future, as sinners, to have our future pre-determined. Let me give you an example. One of my favorite movies was Titanic. The character Jack Dawson (played by Leonardo DiCaprio) was to hook up with the character Rose De Witt Bukater (played by Kate Winslet). When I first began to watch the movie, I knew their future was pre-determined. That is, a movie critic saw the movie and said it was a great film. So, I knew going in that the lives of the characters were predetermined. However, that did not discourage me from watching the movie because I knew that all of the decisions of the characters were the characters' own decisions. Similarly, we are living what is like a movie. The film is already complete, but from our perspective we are still playing out the film. The film's ending is based on our character's (i.e., "us") decisions, and that's what drives the plot of the movie (i.e., the events of the world).

Timeasis wrote:In this case, no human would deserve Hell, since no one is a sinner without the freedom of choosing to sin. I can't see heaven or hell existing with a pre-destined fate. There is neither a reason or a use for the two.

I personally don't believe in a hell that is something other than what we create for ourselves.