mich wrote:Goat wrote:mich wrote:
Again, goat, to claim it to be a third century document is theoretical at best, since the support of it being written by Hyppolitus is weak. Also, even if it was Josephus, the document would not be pre-christian. The "content" found in the discourse is jewish, not christian.Is it a Hellenized jewish teaching? Could be, but the argument lies in Abraham's bosom and the Logos as being pre christian jewish "concepts", unless you assume that christians, or Philo came up with the idea.
Andre
It certainly isn't Josephus, no matter who it is attributed to..
The terminology is not Jewish at all.
I would say that is it much more Christian that Jewish.
You calim that 'the support is weak'.. yet it has more support than Josephus.
You see, Jospehus would not use the New testament.
There are many references to the New Testament throughout the "Discourse". For example, the division of the just and unjust to the right and left suggests Matthew 25:32-33; the reference to the Bosom of Abraham and the "chaos" clearly are related to the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31); the comparison of the body to seed that has been planted recalls 1Corinthians 15:37-38; and the committing of all judgment to Christ comes from John 5:22. Several of these references are mentioned by William Whiston in his dissertation attempting to prove Josephus was the author (see below).[2]
Sorry, but those reference show it is neither Jewish or 'Pre-Christian'
From the notes
William Whiston in "Dissertation 6", part of the appendix to his Josephus translation, printed the text of this "Discourse" in Greek and maintained that the piece was by Josephus, "preached or written when he was bishop of Jerusalem". [3]
Josephus wasn't a bishop of Jerusalem at all....
It's not jewish.. end of story.
Not only that, but the support for it being hippolytus is stronger than you claim, since it is an extract from a longer piece of work. This longer piece of work can be found at
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tical.html
Whether the author was Josephus is not important. The question is whether the Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades is christian or jewish in essence.When I speak of christian elements, I do not mean a different teaching deviating from the Jewish faith but a fullfilled element not found among their writings; such as the salvation of humanity found in Jesus Christ. The discourse is silent to this.
For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
According to the christian faith, to die is to be with Christ."You will be with me in Paradise", Jesus said to the thief. While the discourse speaks of the presence of angels among the righteous souls who, in turn, see the face of the fathers, meaning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and "the Just", Jesus is not mentioned at all; the term "the Just" reveals the Jewish view of the Messiah.Since the christians viewed Jesus as the fulfilled prophecy of "the Just", Jesus would have been written instead of the Just, if it had been written by a christian.
Also:
For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ.
It is odd, in my opinion, that the name Jesus Christ is not used...God the Word and "the Christ" are terms found within the Jewish theological terminology such as seen in the writings of Philo, who, in turn, was writing about Jewish belief.... not christian.
http://www.socinian.org/philo.html
Philo wrote:
The Logos extending himself from the center to its furthest bounds and from its extremities to the center again, runs nature's unvanquished course joining and binding fast all its parts. For the Father when he begat him constituted him an unbreakable bond of the universe.
Notice how Philo identifies the Word of God as also being the Son of God, as is seen in the discourse?
So, what did (and still do) some of the Jews believe concerning the afterlife?
HyppolitusCHAP. XXII.--BELIEF OF THE ESSENI IN THE RESURRECTION'; THEIR SYSTEM A SUGGESTIVE ONE.
Now the doctrine of the resurrection has also derived support among these; for they acknowledge both that the flesh will rise again, and that it will be immortal, in the same manner as the soul is already imperishable. And they maintain that the soul, when separated in the present life, (departs) into one place, which is well ventilated and lightsome, where, they say, it rests until judgment. And this locality the Greeks were acquainted with by hearsay, and called it "Isles of the Blessed." .
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book 18
3. Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet;...They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; .
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/be ... erlife.htm
Judgment Jewish belief
Traditional Judaism includes belief in both heaven and hell, as we will see below. How is one's destination decided? The School of Shammai offered this description:
There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence" [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]... [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]
Advent of the Messianic Era
According to the Talmud[6], the Midrash[7], and the ancient Kabbalistic work, the Zohar[8], the Messiah must arrive before the year 6000 from the time of creation. (According to Orthodox Jewish belief, the Hebrew calendar dates to the time of creation. The year 2010 corresponds to the year 5770 from creation).
Therefore, from the above, we see clearly that the Jews did/do indeed believe in Hades, wherein the souls of the unjust experience sufferings and the just resided in a separate place while enjoying rewards, within a ,
well ventilated and lightsome place, called by the greeks the "Isles of the Blessed.".... and Abraham's bosom as refered to by the Jews.
The Logos found in Philo is also seen as the Son of God. He is the "Christ"or Messiah who is to judge the world in the end time.
So, now, what about the discourse being found within the writings of Hyppolitus? If we look at where the discourse is located, it doesn't make any sense. It is found under the heading AGAINST PLATO, ON THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE. If Hyppolitus wrote the discourse on Hades, it is much more probable that it would have been found in the section EXPOSITORY TREATISE AGAINST THE JEWS...however, there is nothing within the discourse on Hades which disagrees with Jewish belief, so I would doubt this as well. In other words, while the discourse of Hades is indeed also found in the writings of Hyppolitus, it still must be misplaced as the discourse has nothing to do with Plato's view of the universe.
As for Josephus, without dogmatically claiming him as the author, being a jew, and a pharisee, he could be a candidate. His style seems to agree with the discourse. He very often starts his thoughts with the word "now", as seen in the introduction of the discourse.
Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it.
If we compare this statement with one of Josephus' in his Antiquity of the Jews,
Now, as to these matters, every one of my readers may think as he pleases; but I am under a necessity of relating this history as it is described in the sacred books. Antiquity of the Jews Book 3 ch 5
the style of writing seems to agree.
Therefore, to identify the statements within the discourse on Hades concerning the separations found within Hades and the term Abraham's bosom as implying the author "must have borrowed" from the New Testament, as well as the implication of Josephus being a bishop of Jerusalem cannot, in my opinion, come from any serious form of scholarship....unless more evidence is put forward.
Andre
