Ten Commandments for people speaking to Athests to follow.

[playhavock]

Not believing in God, Gods, god, gods, Goddesses, goddesses, Deity, Deities, deity, deities, afterlife, reincarnation, angels, demons, devil(s), and so on is something that many of the atheist, free thinker and skeptical-minded people hold to not believing in.

Many try to argue that the atheist (typically, the label ‘atheist’ is the label used, rather than targeting other labels) has a religion and/or faith. Sometimes people argue that the non-believer(s) "know" there is a God, hate God, and/or have an agenda to deconvert people.

The word "atheist" is simply defined as "without" god; or, if you like, without theism - so the theist is one who has a belief in at least one God and a certain type of God, and the atheist lacks this belief.

I wish to present this simple "Ten Commandments" I mean... Ten things that I've seen people say towards the atheist that are logically flawed. I will simply link to this post whenever someone commits one of them, in hopes that they will stop doing them so often.

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One: "You have faith in no God"
Fallacy: Tu Quoque (you too!)

Very well. Let us assume, for a moment, that this is the case. How does this dismantle the argument the atheist is presenting?
Is having faith good or bad? If having faith is a good thing, one would think this is a compliment to the atheist. "Why thank you, I *do* have faith in no God, and you have faith in God… isn't it nice to have faith in things?" This gets us nowhere. So where is the argument? There is none.

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Two: "You hate God"
Fallacy: Logical incoherency, Ad hominem.

This is logically incoherent because hating something requires that you believe in it. The atheist is saying they do not; thus, they cannot hate God.
Even if we assumed that they secretly believed in God and secretly hated God - how does this emotion affect their arguments? It does not. Therefore, this objection too is invalid.

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Three: "You can't prove God does not exist"
Fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof.

The burden is on whoever makes a positive statement, such as "There is a rock in my hand." This is a statement that requires some level of proof to show it is the case. The more extraordinary the claim, the more proof we should require of it. Uttering to someone, "You can't prove there isn't a rock in my hand" and not allowing them to look at what you are holding - if indeed you are holding anything at all - shifts the burden to them; they cannot disprove it, and it is you who should prove it.

Other "you can't prove" statements could fill libraries with things we cannot prove do not exist: goblins, orcs, dragons, etc., but the burden is clearly on the one who makes the claim that (X) does in fact exist. Typically, this statement is made because the person additionally assumes that atheists are claiming either as a single person or as a whole that "there is no God," when this is not the thing they as a whole are claiming - they as a whole are claiming, "we lack belief in a God." Although there might be a singular person who says, "there is no God," this is not the point - for that person, whoever it is, has the burden to show reasons why we should think they are correct.

But if one still wishes to press forward this statement, what does it matter if the answer is "you are correct; I cannot prove there is not a God…"? This does not mean there is a God.

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Four: "Atheism is a religion"
Fallacy: Tu Quoque.

This is again not an argument at all. even if atheism was a religion (and it is not), how does this dismantle the arguments being made? If there is only "one true religion," as some say, and atheism is a religion, who’s to say that it is not, in fact, the one true one? However, this is not an argument, and thus should not be utilized, as it is nothing more than a "you too!" statement and not an argument at all.

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Five: "You have an agenda to deconvert!"
Fallacy: Ad hominem.

This is attack to the person, rather than to the argument, because even if true - say the person does in fact have an agenda to deconvert people - so what? If those of faith have the right to convert (or try to convert) people, then those of non-faith have the right to deconvert (or try to deconvert) people as well. Even if true, it does not dismantle whatever arguments the person has.

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Six: "Atheists have no morals"
Fallacy: Poisoning the well/Strawman/Ad hominem.

Three fallacies at once! Seriously, this is nothing more than an attempt to poison the well - to say this is akin to saying that Muslims are terrorists or that Catholics are pedophiles or that Christians think slavery is all right. There might be some who are, but to say all are is poisoning the well. It is a strawman because you do not know it to be true, and finally it is an attack to the person, rather than the argument. Again, perhaps they have no morals, but this does not dismantle the arguments they have at all.

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Seven: "You believe that nothing started the universe"
Fallacy: Strawman.

There is no held statement of any kind of atheism in regards to what, if anything did start the universe, or if "start" is even the correct word. Here, atheists typically turn to whatever science is saying for answers. If science does not yet know, then the atheist typically does not know. There is at least one scientist who is promoting the idea of the universe starting from nothing, but when he says nothing he does not mean the philosopher's nothing, and honestly I really would prefer if he came up with a new word for it, but it might be the case that nothing came "before" the universe if there is no "before" or it might be the case that nothing did cause the universe, and now that we have a universe there is no more "nothing" so we can't have a new universe made.

We simply do not know, but we cannot just place aside the possibility - even if it goes against what our brains think of things and how we think things should work. If the theist really wants the atheist to allow for God as a possibility, they should be equally fair (intellectually speaking) to allow for nothing to be a possibility as well.

Still, this is nothing more than a strawman, although it could be the case that there is an atheist that thinks nothing made the universe, again such a person has the burden, and the scientist who thinks this is producing peer-reviewed papers to forward his arguments. To restate saying "you believe (X)" is a strawman - let the person tell you what they believe first, and then argue against THAT.

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Eight: "You can't explain how life began..." (or) "You can't explain the universe" (and other you can't explain statements).
Fallacy: Appeal to ignorance.

It matters not if we cannot explain anything at all. This does nothing to make your stance any better. It appeals to ignorance- “I can't explain it, so it must be (X)" where (X) is the made up idea that you think is the explanation. Now, you might object and say, "But God is not made up!" You are free to believe that is the case, and you might be right for all I know, but you have still made a logical fallacy by placing God where it might not belong. If I cannot explain my computer, I would not say it is here because of God - it could be, but it might not be. I cannot fill the void of knowledge that I have with an explanation - and this is what these sorts of statements try to do.

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Nine: "If there is no God, then I'd do all sorts of bad things!"
Fallacy: Appeal to emotion.

I question the morals and ethics of the person who would do bad things the moment they stopped believing in God. I think this is a harmful idea for people deconverting - and if you've managed to convince someone that if there is no God then you (or anyone) can do anything, then you've potentially made it so someone who deconverts can do anything - and that’s no good for anyone. Still, this is nothing more than an appeal to emotion, a strange blackmail that seeks to stop the arguments of the opponent in their tracks. "I'll kill myself if there is no God" is similar in nature to this. I cannot control what you choose to do or not to do if you decide that you do not believe in God, but stating this forwards no positive argument for your side.

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Ten: "The Bible says..."
Fallacy: Circular logic.

The Chronicles of Narnia say that Lucy found Narnia in the wardrobe, and Lucy was known to not lie, therefore Narnia exists.

This is so similar to everyone who quotes scriptures at people as if that, by itself, is enough. It is not. It assumes said scriptures are true in order to assume the rest is true. This is the core of circular logic and really should stop.

If all you have is some verse quote, then you do not yet have any argument. The only place where verses matter is when you are debating your Bible.
Also, do note that Bible might be any "Holy" writings or sacred documents of anyone; the Christians do not have the only written account of their idea of God. Other religions do as well.

So no. This will not work, it cannot work. It’s circular. Cut it out already. Prove your writings are true first, and then you are free to use them as reference.


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Finally, I'd like to invite people to not make strawmen arguments; find out what someone thinks and why. Do not assume anything about that person, or that group. Ask questions, get to know them, read what they have written, read the debates they have posted, try to understand their side.

I once asked people to do the following thought experiment, and I think it is still a great way for you the believer to step into the shoes of the unbeliever for a moment.

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A person from a religion you have never heard of tells you there religion is true and the only real one. They have a book that contains writings about this religion and their idea of God. They have a personal story about how wonderful their God and religion is.

Questions:
What would it take for you to believe that *they* have the true religion and God?
What sort of facts, evidence, stories, accounts, history, and so on would they have to present to you?

And finally, in the end, is your mind made up? Will you continue to believe you have the real God no matter what anyone says?

--
All other God(s) that are out there, you probably do not believe in any of them. I do not either; I just also add *your* God to the list. I am a skeptic, I require facts - if you have them, just give me them; don't dodge that issue with red herrings, fallacies, or the all-too-often "you will not believe even if I gave you them," or the equivocation that some perform: "I have facts, but they are not the facts you want," or something.

Proof is proof - as far as I know, to date, no theist has presented any empirical evidence of God - if you know of one, show me them and direct me to that evidence. As far as I know, no theist has any test we can perform repeatedly that could show God is true, if you know of some test let me know. I've only studied the Christian religion, as it was my religion, and I found evidence against much of the bible.

If you have positive evidence, I'd like to see it, whatever it might be - history, dates, places, people, and so on. If you do not, then you have nothing that will convince me. The same is true of the religions I've yet to study. I know next to nothing about them, but Hinduism has many people that claim that there Gurus can levitate, heal, and do other wonderful things. Although thousands of them claim this, I've never known a Guru to submit to scientific testing to prove they can, in fact, do this. Thus, I remain skeptical of them. We are all skeptical about SOMETHING - and that is important to realize.

Other people have different reasons for not believing in God that are not my reason - and those reasons deserve to be understood before you can try to make an argument against them. Or, make a positive argument for your religion and your idea of God.

It is my hope you will obey the ten commandments- I mean, you will keep this list in mind.

[HaLi8993]

@ Bernee51

There is no such thing as a just war...all war is immoral

What if your forced to go to war?? Do you have a choice?

This is not true, I think you should look into Islamic history and see how in Al-Andalus the Jews, Christians and Muslims lived side by side in peace. War is not immoral it can have it's positives as it filters the bad from the good to bring peace to it's people.   

One instance of Islam bringing violence will destroy this argument.

Where is your evidence?

Clearly not

So how do you think people should be dealt with when they commit murder and atrocities. What do you think their punishment should be? And what is your approach in dealing with a country that wages military warfare on you?

This is the claim made by Islam...other religions make similar claims. All religions are an attempt to codify a personal spiritual experience. The mistake is to try to globalise they experience. 

That is the mistake of Islam

No this is the truth, we call people to the truth what they do with that is up to them. Only God can guide someone to the realization of the truth.

Then it is Allah's fault that he does not exist for me

No certainly not! It is your fault because God has given you free will.

Seeking the answer to the question "who am I?". Seeking the source of the I-thought. The result of the experiment could be described as: 

In a pinhole camera, when the hole is small you see shapes and colours. When the hole is made big the images disappear and all one sees is light. Similarly when the mind is small and narrow it is full of shapes and words. When it broadens it sees pure light. When the box is destroyed altogether only light remains.

I have already sought for that question, the answer is I am Muslim. The source of "I thought" is the Quran we are more concerned about what God thinks not what our own personal whims and desires want. I have already completed this experience my mind has broadened hence seeing the truth in Islam through the knowledge obtained. When we die the box will be destroyed and we will all be standing in front of our Lord for Judgment. All together. 

So reality is that which the senses, as filtered through the mind, tell us? In dreams the senses tell us many things, we build and inhabit a world, have experiences - are they real? 

Do you remember Hali8993 when she was 10 years old? Her thoughts, her body, her hopes? Are they real? 

That which real is that which exists in all three periods of time (past, present and future); exists independently; and cannot be negated. 

So the universe as we perceive it, constantly changing, cannot be real. 

If Allah exists, Allah is real - but his creation is not.

No it is what God tells us of reality. God tells us about dreams also. Would you like me to elaborate on this topic? We have no knowledge of the future so how can this be true? The universe is not real? What next Bernee51.

Who or what determines your purpose in life? Your beliefs? Your ambitions? Your hopes? Notice the 'your' here? Even if you hold that it is Allah that determines this it is still up to you to see that determination realised. 

All these things - beliefs, hopes, ambitions are mental constructs - your mental constructs. And they are yours regardless of where you believe they are derived.

Yes it is up to us to find the truth, but it is God who allows all things to happen. We have free will to make decisions in life but if something is destined for us, no one can stop things from occurring other than God All-Mighty. You have no control or a decision sometimes so how is it "you". 

By no means complicated....it simply means that in order to give something it must first be possessed. If awareness comes from god, god must have or be awareness.

What do you mean? You have lost me.

Killing for revenge or retribution is moral bankruptcy. Both Sunni and Shia are morally bankrupt.

Killing a person must be compliant with the Quran and Sunnah. Anything that is done without a authentic ruling is rejected.

[HaLi8993]

@ Goat

So, Islam is bringing peace to Syria, and it bringing Peace to Afganistan and Iraq . I see. Islam is bringing peace of Pakastan. How interesting. We must not forget Somalia, ,, or the rebels in the Philapines, or Yeman. So much peace there because of Islam. 

When Iran hangs rape victims that can not produce 4 witnesses, that is sure peaceful. Or , aren't the folks in Iran 'True Muslims?"?

Im glad you brought this up Goat, this example of Syria is a perfect example. My question to you is have the Sunni's started this or was it the Alawwi sect that started this war? For years the Syrian people have been tortured and oppressed by the dictatorship of Basher Al-Assad. Yes, the brothers that are fighting the tyrant Basher Al-Assad, who is killing the Sunnis because they believe in pure Islamic Monotheism are fighting for peace as they want to get rid of a history of abuse and violence against the Sunnis in Syria, a history long tyrant dictatorship that goes back to Basher Al-Assad's father. As for Afghanistan they are fighting those that wage war against their people and country namely America. Again all the countries you have mentioned are fighting  for their rights to live under an Islamic state.  They are fighting the real terrorists like America that wage war on them for no apparent reason. They do not feel they should be forced into changing their way of life and forcefully made to accept democracy. Now one must question who the real terrorists are?? Who has started these wars? Let's not turn a blind eye of what America has done now! 

I'm not sure what example you are referring to in Iran about the rape victims, forward something I may look into, but again majority Iran is Shia. 

[Goat]

@ Goat

So, Islam is bringing peace to Syria, and it bringing Peace to Afganistan and Iraq . I see. Islam is bringing peace of Pakastan. How interesting. We must not forget Somalia, ,, or the rebels in the Philapines, or Yeman. So much peace there because of Islam. 

When Iran hangs rape victims that can not produce 4 witnesses, that is sure peaceful. Or , aren't the folks in Iran 'True Muslims?"?

Im glad you brought this up Goat, this example of Syria is a perfect example. My question to you is have the Sunni's started this or was it the Alawwi sect that started this war? For years the Syrian people have been tortured and oppressed by the dictatorship of Basher Al-Assad. Yes, the brothers that are fighting the tyrant Basher Al-Assad, who is killing the Sunnis because they believe in pure Islamic Monotheism are fighting for peace as they want to get rid of a history of abuse and violence against the Sunnis in Syria, a history long tyrant dictatorship that goes back to Basher Al-Assad's father. As for Afghanistan they are fighting those that wage war against their people and country namely America. Again all the countries you have mentioned are fighting  for their rights to live under an Islamic state.  They are fighting the real terrorists like America that wage war on them for no apparent reason. They do not feel they should be forced into changing their way of life and forcefully made to accept democracy. Now one must question who the real terrorists are?? Who has started these wars? Let's not turn a blind eye of what America has done now! 

I'm not sure what example you are referring to in Iran about the rape victims, forward something I may look into, but again majority Iran is Shia. 

So, there is the whole 'true Muslim' and 'not true Muslim' issue?

And, well, as far as I can see, the Taliban is fighting against the Afgan government.. not the U.S as much.. and the Taliban is also fighting against he Muslim majority in Pakistan. Oh my.. Such inconvenient truths to ignore.

And, I noticed you ignored the Somalia issue, the fact that the terrorist/rebels in the Philippines are Muslim, the problems with Yemen.. the problems with Lebanon, the problems with Sir Lanka, ..

While the Islamic religion COULD be interpreted as peaceful, it is very easy not to, and the vast majority of the worlds violent hotspots have people who are at least using Islam to justify their violent actions. THat is not 'bringing people to peace'.

Islam as was practiced in the 9th and 10th centuries was much more philosophically advanced than after the 11th. If/when I see a concerted effort by a significant minority (does not even have to be a majority), and a shift in how Islam reacts to criticism , particularly of Mohammed, then I will change my mind. I do not see that happening significantly in my lifetime though.. although I would love to be proven wrong on that issue.

[HaLi8993]

@ Goat

So, there is the whole 'true Muslim' and 'not true Muslim' issue? 

And, well, as far as I can see, the Taliban is fighting against the Afgan government.. not the U.S as much.. and the Taliban is also fighting against he Muslim majority in Pakistan. Oh my.. Such inconvenient truths to ignore. 

And, I noticed you ignored the Somalia issue, the fact that the terrorist/rebels in the Philippines are Muslim, the problems with Yemen.. the problems with Lebanon, the problems with Sir Lanka, .. 

While the Islamic religion COULD be interpreted as peaceful, it is very easy not to, and the vast majority of the worlds violent hotspots have people who are at least using Islam to justify their violent actions. THat is not 'bringing people to peace'. 

Islam as was practiced in the 9th and 10th centuries was much more philosophically advanced than after the 11th. If/when I see a concerted effort by a significant minority (does not even have to be a majority), and a shift in how Islam reacts to criticism , particularly of Mohammed, then I will change my mind. I do not see that happening significantly in my lifetime though.. although I would love to be proven wrong on that issue.

There are many misguided sects, but there is only one group of people on the straight path and there will always be one group of people till the end even if they are a small minority. They will be victorious.

The Taliban are fighting both, the Afghan government is just another puppet of the U.S, as for the Taliban fighting the majority in Pakistan being Sunni, where are you getting your information from??

What about Somalia?, that is just another example of the invasion by those countries supposedly bringing "peace" we all know who they are. What are the problems?? Care to explain. You need to learn a lot Goat, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia are located in a region of strategic importance. All of the oil tankers pass through these regions, we all know America divides and concurs, we all know how important oil had been for them in the past, we all know that America is in a financial economic crisis, so who is to say that America is not using an excuse to make money, maybe "fighting the Taliban" as we so commonly here. That's just something for you to think about Goat! Have you ever thought that they make Muslims fight one another so they can distract the whole world from the evils that America and it's allies are committing. Thats just another thing for you to think about Goat! And then when Muslims fight back they are labelled Terrorists, very hypocritical Goat. So how about you ask yourself who the real terrorists are especially those that are supporting and aiding America. I'm sure you know who that is.

If you look at what is happening around the world you will find that these are all incited by the mischief makers on land, who are using Islam to justify violence??, do you want to give me an example. Any person who insults a Prophet of God has incited hatred, this is not something that is taken lightly. If you don't want to see violence the answer is very simple, all you have to do is don't say anything if you haven't got anything nice to say.

[bernee51]

@ Bernee51

There is no such thing as a just war...all war is immoral

What if your forced to go to war?? Do you have a choice?

Yes I do and did have a choice. We had military service...refusal to go risked imprisonment. That was the choice.

This is not true, I think you should look into Islamic history and see how in Al-Andalus the Jews, Christians and Muslims lived side by side in peace. War is not immoral it can have it's positives as it filters the bad from the good to bring peace to it's people.

  

The early rise of Islam (632-700)

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish.

The military conquest was inspired by religion...he early advance of Islam went hand in hand with military expansion

One instance of Islam bringing violence will destroy this argument.

Where is your evidence?

Why don't you, as a woman, head into the tribal lands in north-west Pakistan and suggest to the Muslims there that you as a woman should have a choice to go to schoo, or work, or walk the street unaccompanied...see how long you last.

Remamber Malala Yousafzai?

Also

Qur'an 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)...

Qur'an 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book...

This is the claim made by Islam...other religions make similar claims. All religions are an attempt to codify a personal spiritual experience. The mistake is to try to globalise they experience. 

That is the mistake of Islam

No this is the truth, we call people to the truth what they do with that is up to them. Only God can guide someone to the realization of the truth.

You are mistaken. Allah is a concept invented by man. The koran are is an attempt to codify the personal spiritula experince attributed to Mohammed.

Then it is Allah's fault that he does not exist for me

No certainly not! It is your fault because God has given you free will.

And this totally contradicts what you said a couple of posts ago...

You said...He knows what will happen before it even happens, everything has already been written down of our fate

Seeking the answer to the question "who am I?". Seeking the source of the I-thought. The result of the experiment could be described as: 

In a pinhole camera, when the hole is small you see shapes and colours. When the hole is made big the images disappear and all one sees is light. Similarly when the mind is small and narrow it is full of shapes and words. When it broadens it sees pure light. When the box is destroyed altogether only light remains.

I have already sought for that question, the answer is I am Muslim.

'I am a Muslim' is the view trough the pinhole.

The source of "I thought" is the Quran we are more concerned about what God thinks not what our own personal whims and desires want.

The personal whims and desires have nothign to do wuth the 'I-thought' other than to obscure the realization of our true nature.

I have already completed this experience my mind has broadened hence seeing the truth in Islam through the knowledge obtained. When we die the box will be destroyed and we will all be standing in front of our Lord for Judgment. All together.

What dies? What stands in front of the 'Lord'?
 

So reality is that which the senses, as filtered through the mind, tell us? In dreams the senses tell us many things, we build and inhabit a world, have experiences - are they real? 

Do you remember Hali8993 when she was 10 years old? Her thoughts, her body, her hopes? Are they real? 

That which real is that which exists in all three periods of time (past, present and future); exists independently; and cannot be negated. 

So the universe as we perceive it, constantly changing, cannot be real. 

If Allah exists, Allah is real - but his creation is not.

No it is what God tells us of reality. God tells us about dreams also. Would you like me to elaborate on this topic? We have no knowledge of the future so how can this be true? The universe is not real? What next Bernee51.

So you have not (or cannot) answer my question...do you remember Hali8993 when she was 10 years old? Her thoughts, her body, her hopes? Are they real?

How do you judge the reality of the universe? At what level of existence? The physical, the biological, the mental?

Who or what determines your purpose in life? Your beliefs? Your ambitions? Your hopes? Notice the 'your' here? Even if you hold that it is Allah that determines this it is still up to you to see that determination realised. 

All these things - beliefs, hopes, ambitions are mental constructs - your mental constructs. And they are yours regardless of where you believe they are derived.

Yes it is up to us to find the truth, but it is God who allows all things to happen. We have free will to make decisions in life but if something is destined for us, no one can stop things from occurring other than God All-Mighty. You have no control or a decision sometimes so how is it "you". 

make up your mind...you have contradicted yourself again!

One minute we have free will..the next 'you have no control...'

By no means complicated....it simply means that in order to give something it must first be possessed. If awareness comes from god, god must have or be awareness.

What do you mean? You have lost me.

From whence does awareness arise? Is it a 'gift' from Allah? Can 'Allah' give something itself does not have?

Killing for revenge or retribution is moral bankruptcy. Both Sunni and Shia are morally bankrupt.

Killing a person must be compliant with the Quran and Sunnah. Anything that is done without a authentic ruling is rejected.

So killing, violence is sanctioned by the Quran. At last, an admission that Islam condones violence. Islam is a religion that allows, indeed at times, encourages violence.

As I stated previously. A religion of conversion, and Islam is clearly that, is a religion of violence. It is complicit in the spread of division and conflict.

[HaLi8993]

@ Bernee51

Yes I do and did have a choice. We had military service...refusal to go risked imprisonment. That was the choice.

Military service is not the same as when the enemy knocks on your door, drops planes on your front  door step, kills your family and destroys your whole way of life,  did u go to prison?

The early rise of Islam (632-700) 

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish. 

The military conquest was inspired by religion...he early advance of Islam went hand in hand with military expansion

So what is your point??

Why don't you, as a woman, head into the tribal lands in north-west Pakistan and suggest to the Muslims there that you as a woman should have a choice to go to schoo, or work, or walk the street unaccompanied...see how long you last. 

Remamber Malala Yousafzai? 

Also 

Qur'an 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)... 

Qur'an 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book...

My question to you Bernee51 is where in the Quran or Sunnah  does it disallow women to get an education and work?? A women is allowed to do so provided it meets the conditions set by God. 

Don't know much about Malala so I cannot speak on her behalf but if you could just show me where in Islam it says that women cannot be educated. As I have said all along the crimes of others cannot and should not be associated with Islam. Whenever a Christian or a Jew commits a crime do we stereotype all Christians and Jews??

I have no detailed account of what happened to Malala so I cannot speak on her behalf, but again is there anything you could show me where in the entire Quran or Sunnah it says that women cannot gain knowledge and be educated. 

Bernee51 you are taking things out of context with this verse - 9:5, it would of been nice if you had posted the entire verse which reads:

 ".....But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above noble verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places.  Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagons.

As for verse 9:29, again you have not put the entire verse which is:

 "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"

The key sentence here is "until they pay the Jizya" do you know what this means? The Quran clearly in 45:14 says:

"Say, [O Muhammad], to those who have believed that they [should] forgive those who expect not the days of Allah so that He may recompense a people for what they used to earn"

Meaning: Let the believers forgive the disbelievers and endure the harm that they direct against them. In the beginning of Islam, Muslims were ordered to observe patience in the face of the oppression of the idolators and the People of the Scriptures so that their hearts may incline towards Islam. However, when the disbelievers persisted in stubbornness, Allah legislated for the believers to fight in Jihad. 

You are mistaken. Allah is a concept invented by man. The koran are is an attempt to codify the personal spiritula experince attributed to Mohammed.

This is not true, the previous Prophets and Messengers are a testimony of the existence of God. Something you choose to reject. We have Hadith by the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that can be traced back to the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) which were a witness to his miracles and Prophethood noting everything about his life and teachings.

And this totally contradicts what you said a couple of posts ago... 

You said...He knows what will happen before it even happens, everything has already been written down of our fate

There is no contradiction here, God knows what decisions we will make in life He is the All-Knowing, All-Wise hence He is the One that knows everything about us before it even happens. This is all written down already. This does not mean there is no free will on our part. He knows what that free will that we make would be before we make it. Do u get it?

'I am a Muslim' is the view trough the pinhole.

I could say that about Atheists also.... 

The personal whims and desires have nothign to do wuth the 'I-thought' other than to obscure the realization of our true nature.

Of course it does because "I thought" could have a different interpretation to all. Hence where do you draw the line and where are the boundaries? 

What dies? What stands in front of the 'Lord'?

Your soul will be taken from your body by the Angel of death. You will be standing in front of your Lord. When the son of Adam dies  his body disintegrates and vanishes apart from the tailbone. When the Resurrection begins, God will cause the bodies to grow by means of rain from the earth which will make these bones grow until each person’s body is restored to the way it was before he died. The tailbone is the first part of a person that is created, and it is what will be left of him so that he will be created anew from it

So you have not (or cannot) answer my question...do you remember Hali8993 when she was 10 years old? Her thoughts, her body, her hopes? Are they real? 

How do you judge the reality of the universe? At what level of existence? The physical, the biological, the mental?

Yes they were real. We judge reality based on factual proven evidence and what God has made clear to us of reality, anything that God has not instructed us on is not important because He has given us all we need to be prosperous in this life and the next. You need to be more specific if you want a specific answer. Thanks

make up your mind...you have contradicted yourself again! 

One minute we have free will..the next 'you have no control...'

Again there is no contradiction here, let me give you an example you have no control over what God destines for you but you have free will to make decisions. For example you get run over by a car, or you get shot by some one or you loose your job etc you have no control over this only God has full power of what he destines for you however you have free will to make a decision either you sue the person that ran you over or you don't, or you take retribution for the person who shot you or you don't or you find another job or stay unemployed the decision is yours.

From whence does awareness arise? Is it a 'gift' from Allah? Can 'Allah' give something itself does not have?

Well it depends what awareness you are referring to if by this you mean awareness of the future for example then no, only Allah knows the future and no body else has the power of knowing this. God is unlike his creation, His names and attributes are solely for Him. No body can poses what Allah has. He is Allah the One and Only.  

So killing, violence is sanctioned by the Quran. At last, an admission that Islam condones violence. Islam is a religion that allows, indeed at times, encourages violence. 

As I stated previously. A religion of conversion, and Islam is clearly that, is a religion of violence. It is complicit in the spread of division and conflict.

How does Islam encourage violence?? nope not at all Islam encourages peace, but there are circumstances where by the punishment or Islamic law for murdering a person is death. Just like the law in the US has the death penalty so to does Islam. However in Islam there are three options either a person is put to death, blood money is paid or person found guilty is forgiven, in most cases a persons innate nature opts for the third option which is forgiveness because we are people who forgive. 

[bernee51]

Yes I do and did have a choice. We had military service...refusal to go risked imprisonment. That was the choice.

Military service is not the same as when the enemy knocks on your door, drops planes on your front door step, kills your family and destroys your whole way of life, did u go to prison?

I am fortunate not to have to go through that which you describe…that does not detract though from my belief that war is immoral.

The early rise of Islam (632-700)

The Muslim community spread through the Middle East through conquest, and the resulting growth of the Muslim state provided the ground in which the recently revealed faith could take root and flourish.

The military conquest was inspired by religion...he early advance of Islam went hand in hand with military expansion

So what is your point??

Claiming to bringing peace through invasion is exactly what the West is accused of in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I said at the time democracy at the point of a gun is not democracy.

Imposed ‘peace’ is not peace.

Why don't you, as a woman, head into the tribal lands in north-west Pakistan and suggest to the Muslims there that you as a woman should have a choice to go to schoo, or work, or walk the street unaccompanied...see how long you last.

Remamber Malala Yousafzai?


My question to you Bernee51 is where in the Quran or Sunnah does it disallow women to get an education and work?? A women is allowed to do so provided it meets the conditions set by God.

Don't know much about Malala so I cannot speak on her behalf but if you could just show me where in Islam it says that women cannot be educated. As I have said all along the crimes of others cannot and should not be associated with Islam. Whenever a Christian or a Jew commits a crime do we stereotype all Christians and Jews??

A religion is and should be judged by how its adherents act based on their interpretations of the texts supporting said religion.

The Muslim who shot Malala Yousafzai was acting in the name of Islam, by the claims of those who supported the shooting.

Why is their interpretation of the Quran to justify the shooting any less valid than yours?

Bernee51 you are taking things out of context with this verse - 9:5, it would of been nice if you had posted the entire verse which reads:

".....But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Note the bolded text…

In other words…covert of die.

Islam the religion of peace…you are joking.

You are mistaken. Allah is a concept invented by man. The koran are is an attempt to codify the personal spiritula experince attributed to Mohammed.

This is not true, the previous Prophets and Messengers are a testimony of the existence of God. Something you choose to reject. We have Hadith by the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that can be traced back to the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) which were a witness to his miracles and Prophethood noting everything about his life and teachings.

Stories about stories.

No different to any of the ‘sacred texts’ mankind has devised since he learnt to scratch letters on clay tablets.

And this totally contradicts what you said a couple of posts ago...

You said...He knows what will happen before it even happens, everything has already been written down of our fate

There is no contradiction here, God knows what decisions we will make in life He is the All-Knowing, All-Wise hence He is the One that knows everything about us before it even happens. This is all written down already. This does not mean there is no free will on our part. He knows what that free will that we make would be before we make it. Do u get it?

You don’t get it.

Either it is written or it is not. You claimed it was written. If it is written the you and I have no choice as to how we end up.

'I am a Muslim' is the view trough the pinhole.

I could say that about Atheists also....

The personal whims and desires have nothing to do with the 'I-thought' other than to obscure the realization of our true nature.

Of course it does because "I thought" could have a different interpretation to all. Hence where do you draw the line and where are the boundaries?

Apologies…I should have said ‘source’ of the I-thought….which is our true nature.

What dies? What stands in front of the 'Lord'?

Your soul will be taken from your body by the Angel of death. You will be standing in front of your Lord. When the son of Adam dies his body disintegrates and vanishes apart from the tailbone. When the Resurrection begins, God will cause the bodies to grow by means of rain from the earth which will make these bones grow until each person’s body is restored to the way it was before he died. The tailbone is the first part of a person that is created, and it is what will be left of him so that he will be created anew from it.

This sounds like a fairy tale.

So you have not (or cannot) answer my question...do you remember Hali8993 when she was 10 years old? Her thoughts, her body, her hopes? Are they real?

How do you judge the reality of the universe? At what level of existence? The physical, the biological, the mental?

Yes they were real.

‘Were’ real? So they are no longer real? When did they become not real? When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

We judge reality based on factual proven evidence and what God has made clear to us of reality, anything that God has not instructed us on is not important because He has given us all we need to be prosperous in this life and the next. You need to be more specific if you want a specific answer. Thanks

I was specific above. When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

make up your mind...you have contradicted yourself again!

From whence does awareness arise? Is it a 'gift' from Allah? Can 'Allah' give something itself does not have?

Well it depends what awareness you are referring to if by this you mean awareness of the future for example then no, only Allah knows the future and no body else has the power of knowing this. God is unlike his creation, His names and attributes are solely for Him. No body can poses what Allah has. He is Allah the One and Only.

I am not talking about awareness of any object, I am talking about ‘awareness’ itself. The fact that we are ‘aware’. We are creatures that have a level of consciousness that allows self-reflection. We ‘know that we know’. That is awareness.

So killing, violence is sanctioned by the Quran. At last, an admission that Islam condones violence. Islam is a religion that allows, indeed at times, encourages violence.

As I stated previously. A religion of conversion, and Islam is clearly that, is a religion of violence. It is complicit in the spread of division and conflict.

How does Islam encourage violence?? nope not at all Islam encourages peace, but there are circumstances where by the punishment or Islamic law for murdering a person is death. Just like the law in the US has the death penalty so to does Islam. However in Islam there are three options either a person is put to death, blood money is paid or person found guilty is forgiven, in most cases a persons innate nature opts for the third option which is forgiveness because we are people who forgive.

I do not support or condone retributive violence…I believe it is immoral. Islam allows for retributive violence…Islam is immoral…as are the laws of the US which allow the death penalty.

[HaLi8993]

@ Bernee51

I am fortunate not to have to go through that which you describe…that does not detract though from my belief that war is immoral.

All I'm saying is that we are living a comfortable life, you are right in saying we are very fortunate, but if you could just try and put yourself in somebody else's shoes, it is easy to say that war is immoral. But for those that are driven out of their lands, oppressed, tortured and have had their basic human rights striped from them, they wouldn't agree with you, because the oppressors need to be dealt with and if the only way to do this is through means of warfare then that is the best way. This in return brings peace to the society at large.

Claiming to bringing peace through invasion is exactly what the West is accused of in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

I said at the time democracy at the point of a gun is not democracy. 

Imposed ‘peace’ is not peace.

Give me an example.

A religion is and should be judged by how its adherents act based on their interpretations of the texts supporting said religion. 

The Muslim who shot Malala Yousafzai was acting in the name of Islam, by the claims of those who supported the shooting. 

Why is their interpretation of the Quran to justify the shooting any less valid than yours?

How can a religion be judged on the actions of others, we are aware that their are many deviant sects that claim to be practicing Islam. Would it not be a better approach for an individual to carry out the appropriate research for themselves to understand a particular religion rather then jumping to conclusions.

Where is your evidence that the person who shot Malala acted in the name of Islam and for what reasons was she shot? 

As I said I'm not sure of the entire story relating to Malala's shooting, furthermore I'm not sure what they have used to justify the shooting. If you could tell me exactly what verse or fatawa was used I can look into this. 

Note the bolded text… 

In other words…covert of die. 

Islam the religion of peace…you are joking.

 

Nice Try!, you need to look into why that verse was revealed. It was the pagans who initiated war against the Muslims after the conquest of Mecca (the Battle of Hunayn). Historically, the polytheists and Muslims reached an agreement that neither side would attack the other and they would have a peace treaty lasting 10 years. Two years after this treaty was signed it was broken by a group of polytheists  who raided a Muslim encampment, killing almost everyone inside. The Muslims had every right to fight back. This time God gave no chance to the polytheists. After the many years of terror and persecution against the Muslims, they could not be trusted with peace, so they had to be killed. However God gave them the chance to revert to Islam and not face the penalty of death, for their crimes. I would call this peace. God ordered the Muslims to give sanctuary to polytheists who sought protection from Muslims. Again peace. He ordered them to give them protection and recite the Holy Qur'an to them, in order to convince them of Islam (Surah at-Tawba 9:6).

Stories about stories. 

No different to any of the ‘sacred texts’ mankind has devised since he learnt to scratch letters on clay tablets.

You have no evidence that it is not real, there is plenty of evidence your choosing to reject.

You don’t get it. 

Either it is written or it is not. You claimed it was written. If it is written the you and I have no choice as to how we end up.

Who said it is not written? You so have a choice because God knows the future, hence he has already written down what choices you "will" make. Do you get it?

Apologies…I should have said ‘source’ of the I-thought….which is our true nature.

No problem, what do you consider as the "source"?

This sounds like a fairy tale.

That is your opinion but we have the Quran and  Hadith to prove it. 

‘Were’ real? So they are no longer real? When did they become not real? When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

Nope, I am no longer 10 year old Hali, hence my hopes, thoughts and dreams are no longer real. They became not real when I grew up reached puberty and understood the meaning and purpose of life. Are you a psychologist lol??

I was specific above. When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real? 

When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

Answer above.

I am not talking about awareness of any object, I am talking about ‘awareness’ itself. The fact that we are ‘aware’. We are creatures that have a level of consciousness that allows self-reflection. We ‘know that we know’. That is awareness.

Yes, and this is what God has created.

I do not support or condone retributive violence…I believe it is immoral. Islam allows for retributive violence…Islam is immoral…as are the laws of the US which allow the death penalty.

Then where is there the justice for those that murder?? What is to happen to those that murder and kill people without right?

[bernee51]

I just saw you post in another thread and before responding to that I thought I woild make a brief comment here…

I am fortunate not to have to go through that which you describe…that does not detract though from my belief that war is immoral.

All I'm saying is that we are living a comfortable life, you are right in saying we are very fortunate, but if you could just try and put yourself in somebody else's shoes, it is easy to say that war is immoral. But for those that are driven out of their lands, oppressed, tortured and have had their basic human rights striped from them, they wouldn't agree with you, because the oppressors need to be dealt with and if the only way to do this is through means of warfare then that is the best way. This in return brings peace to the society at large.

Until next time…

Hatred can only breed hatred….

The Balkans are an example….

A religion is and should be judged by how its adherents act based on their interpretations of the texts supporting said religion.

The Muslim who shot Malala Yousafzai was acting in the name of Islam, by the claims of those who supported the shooting.

Why is their interpretation of the Quran to justify the shooting any less valid than yours?

How can a religion be judged on the actions of others, we are aware that their are many deviant sects that claim to be practicing Islam. Would it not be a better approach for an individual to carry out the appropriate research for themselves to understand a particular religion rather then jumping to conclusions.

Where is your evidence that the person who shot Malala acted in the name of Islam and for what reasons was she shot?

As I said I'm not sure of the entire story relating to Malala's shooting, furthermore I'm not sure what they have used to justify the shooting. If you could tell me exactly what verse or fatawa was used I can look into this.

What you believe is irrelevant….what the person believes who kills in the name of Islam – or any religion - is all that matters.

Are we clear on that?

Stories about stories.

No different to any of the ‘sacred texts’ mankind has devised since he learnt to scratch letters on clay tablets.

You have no evidence that it is not real, there is plenty of evidence your choosing to reject.

There is as much evidence that the Koran is the ‘real word of god’ as there is theta the bible is real, or the Bhagavad Gita…none.

The ‘evidence’ is why you believe…not what makes it ‘real’

You don’t get it.

Either it is written or it is not. You claimed it was written. If it is written the you and I have no choice as to how we end up.

Who said it is not written? You so have a choice because God knows the future, hence he has already written down what choices you "will" make. Do you get it?

Exactly…I have no choice as he has written it down…you can’t have it both ways.

Apologies…I should have said ‘source’ of the I-thought….which is our true nature.

No problem, what do you consider as the "source"?

Awareness is the source.

‘Were’ real? So they are no longer real? When did they become not real? When did whoever HaLi8993 was become not real?

Nope, I am no longer 10 year old Hali, hence my hopes, thoughts and dreams are no longer real. They became not real when I grew up reached puberty and understood the meaning and purpose of life. Are you a psychologist lol??

So when did you stop being the real Hali? When you reached puberty? Are you exactly the same now as you were then? Is the understanding of life the same now as it was then? Is what makes you ‘real’ now the same as it was then?

Then where is there the justice for those that murder?? What is to happen to those that murder and kill people without right?

I thought ‘justice’ was meted out by your god?

[HaLi8993]

@ Bernee51

Until next time… 

Hatred can only breed hatred…. 

The Balkans are an example….

It's called justice, we don't hate we love for others what we love for ourselves, hence why we would love people to be guided to the truth.

What you believe is irrelevant….what the person believes who kills in the name of Islam – or any religion - is all that matters. 

Are we clear on that?

You are not answering my questions. Likewise what you believe is irrelevant, what we believe is from God, what you believe is from man.

There is as much evidence that the Koran is the ‘real word of god’ as there is theta the bible is real, or the Bhagavad Gita…none. 

The ‘evidence’ is why you believe…not what makes it ‘real’

There is plenty of evidence, you are just choosing to reject it. The evidence is clear and supported. If you are so sure that what I say is not true then you would need to prove it is wrong. There must be errors and contradictions in what I say. 

Awareness is the source.

Where does awareness come from?? 

So when did you stop being the real Hali? When you reached puberty? Are you exactly the same now as you were then? Is the understanding of life the same now as it was then? Is what makes you ‘real’ now the same as it was then?

I have always been real. Never changed being real, I became more knowledgeable and sought for the truth. I don't think anyone stays the same through out there entire life time do you? No the understanding of life has changed hense things are not the same things are better. 

I thought ‘justice’ was meted out by your god?

Yes, God teaches us about Justice, but you haven't answered my question.