More on Bonobo's

[micatala]

As I write, I am listening to National PUblic Radio's "Science Friday" program with guest primatologist Frans de Wall, author of a new book entitled "Our Inner Ape".

De Wall makes some interesting observations about Bonobos, Chimps, and Humans. Some examples:

1. Bonobos are as close to us genetically as Chimps.

2. Bonobos do not display the same type of violent behavior that Chimps sometimes do. De Walls described one case where some Chimps attacked a man and tore off his hands, feet, and 'other parts' which I will leave unmentioned.

3. Bonobos display some remarkably empathetic behavior. A couple of examples cited are:

a. A Bonobo who perceived that one of his colleagues was handicapped, and assisted him in getting from one place to another.
b. A Bonobo who, upon discovering a stunned bird, carefully picked up the bird and folding together its wings, carried it up to a high branch and assisted it in escaping from the enclosure into the sky (I could have some of the details wrong here, but the point is the Bonobo, rather than taking advantage of the bird's plight, helped it and actually had some understanding of what the bird might want from the bird's point of view).

4. Bonobo's are very promiscuous in general, and males often have sex with other males.

5. Many primates have a deep sense of 'inequity aversion', and will sometimes respond violently if they percieve they are being treated unfairly (eg. the zookeeper is giving Chimp A more food or care than Chimp's B and C). One could certainly see this aspect in human nature as well.

6. Not only Bonobo's, but also Chimps, dolphins, and other social species often make a point of caring for the injured or less fortunate individuals in the group, the opposite of what we might think of as 'social darwinism in the animal world.' One caller to the show contrasted this with the recent Katrina hurricane situation in New Orleans where some of those in the Superdome complained that they had been 'left behind' and were being 'treated like animals.'

His overall point is that Bonobo's provide a sort of counterexample to the notion that our relationship to Chimps means we are 'just animals' and that our association with primates reflects entirely negatively on us. The Bonobo's provide examples of behaviors that we would commonly think of as good, beneficial, even almost moral.



So, the questions for debate are:

1. Is it possible that this information, and the potential for additional findings along these lines, will diminish the aversion to the idea of human evolution among the general public?

2. Does this information suggest that our moral nature has evolutionary roots?

[Chad]

You're doing an awful lot of laughing...What is "rubbish" about the paper?

If you read the articles I posted (and the first paragraph of your article) you'll realize why I call it rubbish.

Those articles are horribly biased, incorrect and misleading. For a better article on many of these subjects I think Wikipedia would be a great place to start. It’s a free Encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People discuss the article and make revisions as they see fit. ( http://en.wikipedia.org )

[The Happy Humanist]

You're doing an awful lot of laughing...What is "rubbish" about the paper?

If you read the articles I posted (and the first paragraph of your article) you'll realize why I call it rubbish.

Those articles are horribly biased, incorrect and misleading. For a better article on many of these subjects I think Wikipedia would be a great place to start. It’s a free Encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People discuss the article and make revisions as they see fit. ( http://en.wikipedia.org )

Edited: Deleted my snide one-liner.

[QED]

I think I might be able to create a program that would do the same thing if I wanted to waste my time. Remember Lisa? I can think of a few old AI programs. They just keep answering the questions or any with the same answer. "what do you think" Nobody is home. Lisp was one language used. Been a long time but there were others.
Maybe there are no trolls only bots.

You're absolutely right about that Cathar! Now you mention it the creationist rhetoric is highly reminiscent of the sort of replies dished out by AI. Although asking Alice whether she believes in evolution is interesting!

[unicorn]

Chad:

Those articles are horribly biased and misleading...

Really (do you understand the meaning of biased?)? ...it must be really hard to be biased about whether or not Neanderthal's existed...either they were alive or they weren't. "Biased!" is the perfect way to reject anything you can't prove wrong.

[unicorn]

deleted my snide one-liner

I do that all the time!

[The Happy Humanist]

deleted my snide one-liner

I do that all the time!

So the comments we see are your most polite efforts?

[unicorn]

The Happy Humanist:

Geez...you guys really are too soft. I'm not that mean! I don't think I'm really mean at all, actually. But, if I am being mean, I have been told I am capable of it.

[Chad]

Chad:

Those articles are horribly biased and misleading...

Really (do you understand the meaning of biased?)? ...it must be really hard to be biased about whether or not Neanderthal's existed...either they were alive or they weren't. "Biased!" is the perfect way to reject anything you can't prove wrong.

If you're going to quote me, don't delete words from my original sentence.

Anyways, some of those are obviously biased.

Please go to http://www.souldevice.org/ and read...

Greetings! You have reached the online apologetics ministry of Doug Beaumont. I am a college professor, an ordained minister, armchair philosopher, back seat theologian, and a virtually unknown but highly controversial cultural critic. This is my collection of web articles on various subjects important (and not so important!) to the Christian faith. Please have a look around and visit my other sites (to the left) for speaking seminars, movie evaluations, etc. Take care and God bless!

Or go to http://www.mbowden.surf3.net and read...

The counselling is True Biblical Counselling (TBC), i.e. using the Bible alone as this gives full guidance on living the full Christian life - and helpful for the non-Christian also. Details of the co-authored book Breakdowns are Good for you about True Biblical Counselling are given. Counselling should be returned to the churches and a course in True Biblical Counselling is now available. It can be used by ministers and church members alike. The approach is easy to understand by mature Christians wanting to help others who have failed to run their lives in accordance with the Bible.

The only site I would honestly take seriously from that list would be talkorigins.

[AmerSdlbrd]

Really (do you understand the meaning of biased?)? ...it must be really hard to be biased about whether or not Neanderthal's existed...either they were alive or they weren't. "Biased!" is the perfect way to reject anything you can't prove wrong.

Or you can say such insightful things as, "No Cro-Magnon bones have been found--ever!" Please unicorn, make an effort at a rebuttal. You ran off so fast when I called you out for speaking about something you know next to nothing about, I really want to see documentation stating that no Cro-Magnon bones have been found--ever!

[unicorn]

Amersdlbrd:

That was almost funny! I think you need to take a look at the forum/debate rules.