Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 79 by 1213]

The law was given to Jews with promise, if they obey it, they get blessings and if they disobey it, things will go badly. The person who disobeyed without good reason, call destruction on the whole nation by not obeying the law.

Well your god is that petty, according to your holy book. King David disobeys him when God says not to do a census, and God's response is to unleash a plague.
I just love how much of a doom-sayer you are here, where violating even the most petty of commands is something so dire, that it might just end up in the destruction of the world. Don't pick up those sticks, you'll doom us all you fool!

And I think it is obvious also in secular country, if people begin to ignore the law, whole order collapses and when the order collapses, also the nation vanishes and then there is just group of people acting for their own good, without really caring what happens to others.

As opposed to the caring in this situation, where a bloodthirsty mob picks up heavy stones to hurl at a person's head. Oh yeah, stellar situation here.

Or what do you think would happen, if people in your country would ignore the law? Would your nation exist after that?

People have been violating laws for millenia, and nations still exist. I stole books from stores twenty years ago, and somehow, just somehow, Ireland's existence as a nation was uninterrupted.
I'm not saying that violating laws is unimportant. I'm saying that you're greatly exaggerating the results of law violation, so as to justify to yourself hurling stones at a person's head so as to kill them.
Tell me 1213, what happens if in the end, picking up sticks on the wrong day of the work turns out (or should I say turned out) not to have been so dangerous after all?

[Jagella]

How is gathering sticks on Saturday attempted genocide?

The law was given to Jews with promise, if they obey it, they get blessings and if they disobey it, things will go badly. The person who disobeyed without good reason, call destruction on the whole nation by not obeying the law.

You're not answering my question: how is gathering sticks on Saturday attempted genocide?

And I think it is obvious also in secular country, if people begin to ignore the law, whole order collapses and when the order collapses, also the nation vanishes and then there is just group of people acting for their own good, without really caring what happens to others. Or what do you think would happen, if people in your country would ignore the law? Would your nation exist after that?

Actually, in America we have a lot of really stupid laws on the books that people disobey all the time. America is still here! But I don't know if we have any law as stupid as the Jewish sabbath laws.

[PinSeeker]

Well your god is that petty...

Ah, so there should be no consequences, like ever, for transgressing... anything... That's... quite an interesting way of seeing things. Not sure you'd make a good dad.

...what happens if in the end, picking up sticks on the wrong day of the work turns out (or should I say turned out) not to have been so dangerous after all?

Picking up sticks is not the issue. Working on the Sabbath is. And whatever it is, if it's something God said not to do, it's very dangerous. That's why we need a Savior -- not so we'll have a "license" to sin, or a "get out of jail free" card, but because we can't help but sin, at least to some degree. And any single sin, no matter how "small," is damnable. Hey, don't shoot the messenger...

[AgnosticBoy]

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

I personally would not stone him but I would punish him in other ways since he violated one of God's rules. It seems you view the guy as being innocent which is also unjustified. My problem is more with the punishment, but then again that's just my subjective inclination.

On a more objective note, there probably won't be a satisfactory answer unless we define what "good" morals are, their purpose, etc. In my view, such an answer has not been offered so all this will turn into is one opinion arguing against another opinion and it's because the foundation is subjective/culturally based.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 83 by PinSeeker]

Ah, so there should be no consequences, like ever, for transgressing... anything... That's... quite an interesting way of seeing things. Not sure you'd make a good dad.

Now this is where you are tilting at windmills and/or attacking a strawman. Since when have I EVER advocated that position?
This is YOUR position. Either no punishments...or brick to the face. You don't seem to recognise the concept of punishment fitting the crime, of there being something of a middle ground between letting the perp go or violently killing him in a mob bloodbath.

Picking up sticks is not the issue. Working on the Sabbath is.

A [strike]rose[/strike] stupid rule by any other name still smells as horrible.

And whatever it is, if it's something God said not to do, it's very dangerous.

But the danger isn't in the bloodthirsty mob dragging you out into an empty square and bashing your brains in with heavy stones? No, the danger is apparently something else.

That's why we need a Savior -- not so we'll have a "license" to sin, or a "get out of jail free" card, but because we can't help but sin, at least to some degree.

And any single sin, no matter how "small," is damnable. Hey, don't shoot the messenger...

No I won't shoot you. But stone you...? According to you, that's an ok punishment. If "God's children" killed each other over any and ALL "sins", there'd be no-one left on the planet.

[PinSeeker]

Now this is where you are tilting at windmills and/or attacking a strawman.

Nah, I was just showing the absurdity of your statement.

This is YOUR position. Either no punishments...or brick to the face.

Um, no, riko, other than that there are properly consequences for transgressing laws, I'm not taking any position.

You don't seem to recognise the concept of punishment fitting the crime...

Oh, but I do. As I said several times before, the wages for sin is death, per God. Now, that's not the case today, of course, because Jesus (God Himself in the flesh) bore that punishment once and for all on our behalf. Yours, too, atheist or no.

But the danger isn't in the bloodthirsty mob dragging you out into an empty square and bashing your brains in with heavy stones? No, the danger is apparently something else.

Absolutely correct. Everybody will eventually come face to face with the wrath of God. Some (those who have a Savior, namely Jesus) will escape it.

I won't shoot you.

Super! Thanks.

But stone you...?

Uh-oh.

According to you, that's an ok punishment.

No, according to me, that was the just punishment in the days of the Israelites, but those days are in the past, thank God. By north of two millenia. You're not... trying to, um... put words in my mouth, are you, Riko?

If "God's children" killed each other over any and ALL "sins", there'd be no-one left on the planet.

Well maybe, but that's a non sequitur. God's children are commanded to love God first, of course, but also to love all others -- even enemies -- as ourselves.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

Not today but I'm not proud to say , maybe then I would have.

[ttruscott]

But the danger isn't in the bloodthirsty mob dragging you out into an empty square and bashing your brains in with heavy stones?

Do you misconstrue the story for sarcastic or dramatic effect?

bloodthirsty mob hardly describes being brought to the judges and elders of the whole camp so as to decide what should be done with him...

33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

[Tcg]

But the danger isn't in the bloodthirsty mob dragging you out into an empty square and bashing your brains in with heavy stones?

Do you misconstrue the story for sarcastic or dramatic effect?

bloodthirsty mob hardly describes being brought to the judges and elders of the whole camp so as to decide what should be done with him...

33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; 34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

This is true, a bloodthirsty God decided what should be done:

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.�

And then the bloodthirsty mob dragged him outside where they murdered him with stones.






Tcg

[Jagella]

QUESTION Why was there such a severe penelty for breaking the Sabbath law


♦ANSWER Because breaking the Sabbath could lead to the slaughter of parents and innocent children and had to be discouraged with the strongest measires possible . The Mosaic legal system was based on spiritual principles, principles which not only protected both workers but more importantly protected the religious system which was essential for the nations survival.. The Sabbath breaker, by performing an act that defied the basis upon which the welfare of the nation rested, was putting all its citizens in danger, it was then an act of treason.

If the slaughter of innocent people was to be prevented, then it makes no sense to slaughter people for breaking that law. It appears that the religious system of Israel was much more of a threat to Israel than anybody doing needed work. If the citizens of Israel were in danger, then they should have done away with that danger; the superstition created by Moses.