Is Gandhi burning in Hell?

[Beto]

The name Gandhi is usually followed by a quick strategic retreat on the lines of "I don't presume to know God's will", when the Christian God's Law seems to be pretty clear as to where Gandhi's soul is right now.

I invite Christians to argue on whether or not Gandhi is in Hell, and on whether or not they personally feel he deserves to be in Hell.

Of course I welcome arguments that show the Law doesn't say Gandhi will not enter Heaven (it's not just about going to Hell).

[myth-one.com]

Works do not earn salvation.

That's correct. If Gandhi believed that "all paths lead to God," he is incorrect according to the Bible:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

The "way that seemeth right unto a man" leads down the path to destruction -- not to God. Gandhi was a great man, but still a man.

According to the scriptures everyone already has eternal life. It's just a question of where they will spend eternity - in heaven or hell.

Absolutely false. Quote one verse which proves that everyone has eternal life. The only possible one is:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

But that is generally considered to be a lie. The article by Steve Jackson describes the fire and punishment as everlasting. When human nonbelievers are cast into the everlasting fire, they are killed instantly. So their punishment of death is everlasting -- they perish and never live again! The means of death is the everlasting fire. The fire is everlasting, not their torment. Perhaps God likes heat and light.

Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden so that they would not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. The Bible states that man has no preeminence over the other beasts, they all return to dust. Now let's examine the Bible verse which every Christian can quote forwards and backwards:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Do most Christians actually believe this verse? It states that whoever believes in the Son of God will have eternal life. The words "but have" indicate eternal life is not something we are born with, but something received as a result of believing in Christ. "But have eternal life," is undeniably future tense. Eternal life is something those who believe in Jesus Christ will have in the future!

What happens to those humans who do not believe in the Son of God? Implied in this phrase, "whosoever believeth in him, should not perish," is that those who do not believe in Him will perish. There are only two possibilities, either you perish or you do not perish. If mankind is born with eternal life, this phrase has absolutely no meaning, as they cannot perish. So this phrase indicates that one is not born with any aspect of life which lives forever. No one will live in eternal agony in hellfire according to this verse. They will perish! When the words "eternal life" or "everlasting life" are used in the Bible, they are used in phrases such as: inherit eternal life, the gift of eternal life, or the promise of everlasting life. It is never mentioned as something one is born with, but something that Christians shall inherit in the future:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundred-fold, and shall inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:29)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (I John 2:25)

When anyone states that a part of every human will live forever after their physical body dies, they are simply and obviously wrong! Do you believe the inspired word of God or the confused words of misguided humans? In general, most Christians do not believe John 3:16! Most believe what they are taught without question.

[achilles12604]

Unnamed Source wrote: It presents Jesus Christ as mankind’s only way of salvation.

MagusYanum wrote: Not only is this unscriptural, this is arrogance, this is hubris. For those who don't start at the Western European point-of-reference, being told that there is an 'only way' must sound like complete lunacy. There are over six billion ways to salvation, between the absolute (God) and every individual person, as individual people, and no one fallible, frail person can live them all, just one being difficult enough.

Not sure what you're saying, Magus. Jesus as the only way of salvation is taught in the scriptures - John 14:6, John 3:36, and this from Acts chapter 4:

8 - Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is

" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.'

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

If I may interject here, I would like to put in my two cents about this particular set of ideas.

Easyrider is taking the traditional stance that Jesus is the only way to salvation according to the scritpures.

Well Strangely enough I agree with him. But not in the way he means.

Jesus is the only way because his death attoned for all sins. Without him, sin would not have been payed for. If I may I would like to use imagery to illistrate my point.

All men are heading down a tunnel. At the end of the tunnel is a gate which is blocked by a cave in.

the cave in is sin. the Gate is our choosing to love God and follow his direction.

God himself opens the gate for those who's hearts are pure. He alone can judge a man based on his true nature. He ALONE can judge. Not achilles12604, or easyrider, or mag. But, even if God was to open the gate for a man, there was a cave in so the man was unable to reach the gate at all. Jesus attoning death cleared away that cave in.


So yes, Jesus is the only path because he alone was able to clear the block



BUT . . . Magnus Yamm is absolutly correct when he says that the scriptures do not indicate that belief of the traditional Christian variety is necessary for God to grant salvation. If God is able to read the hearts of men, he can open the gate for ANYONE. To say that someone must follow a very misunderstood segment of scripture which was (IMO) very poorly interpreted probably due to the desire of the Roman Catholic church to obtain power of the mob, is ludicruce.

If you read the words of Jesus first, (not those of Paul), then you get a clear picture that the state of a man's heart is the means by which God judges a man's salvation.



Yes, all men must go through Jesus in order to reach salvation. No, judgement of God is not based strictly on ahderance to traditional christianity.

Related question for Easyrider. If you take the position that all men must accept Jesus by name and believe in him as the litteral son of God and reject all other faiths as evil and false in order to attain salvation . . . How can

Daniel 7:13-15

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

or

Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

or

Acts 17:25-27

25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

or

Revelation 5:8-10

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

or

Revelation 7:9-10
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

It is impossible for EVERY tribe and nation to have people represented by your rules of engagement.

[myth-one.com]

The Bible consists of two testaments or wills. Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he gained eternal life. After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

We must now believe in Jesus Christ to inherit eternal life. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is impossible for EVERY tribe and nation to have people represented by your rules of engagement.

Why?

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

At this time your statement becomes false as every tribe and nation is represented. Through God all things are possible. You are limiting the salvation of Jesus Christ to man's first physical life.

[achilles12604]

The Bible consists of two testaments or wills. Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he gained eternal life. After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

We must now believe in Jesus Christ to inherit eternal life. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is impossible for EVERY tribe and nation to have people represented by your rules of engagement.

Why?

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. (Revelation 14:6)

At this time your statement becomes false as every tribe and nation is represented. Through God all things are possible. You are limiting the salvation of Jesus Christ to man's first physical life.

LOL. if you read CAREFULLY, you might notice that I too made the point that every tribe is represented and thus the position that only a certain strain of Christians will be saved is false.

But thank you for re-asserting my position, even if you did mis-read me.

As for Paul's writings, I must point out that while Paul was spreading the Gospel's news, he was also interpreting it and putting that forth in his letters. So any of Paul's letters will certainly hold his own interpretation and opinions. That is why I tend to lean towards the Gospels and forgo Paul's writings. I think he missed the boat when it came to understanding just how forgiving and all encompassing God's love was.

His words, strike me as more exclusive than those attributed to Jesus.

But in any case, I believe we are on the same page with regards to salvation being open to more people than simply those who claim traditional christianity as Easyrider is trying to argue.

[Fisherking]

dub LLd

[Fisherking]

Yes, all men must go through Jesus in order to reach salvation. No, judgement of God is not based strictly on ahderance to traditional christianity.

In your opinion, is it based on adherance to any principles at all?

Related question for Easyrider. If you take the position that all men must accept Jesus by name and believe in him as the litteral son of God and reject all other faiths as evil and false in order to attain salvation

Daniel 7:13-15

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

"every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord". ----willingly or unwillingly in my opinion.

Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

The conditions for acceptance here would be fearing(revering) the God Peter was refering to (God of the Bible) and doing what is right (in the eyes of the God of the Bible) doesn't it?

Acts 17:25-27
25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Which God did this? Who would He like men to find?

Jer"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Rev "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Revelation 5:8-10

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

If this said something like "every tribe, language, people, nation, and [religion]" it would be tough to argue against what it is I think you are saying

or

Revelation 7:9-10
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

Same as above

It is impossible for EVERY tribe and nation to have people represented by your rules of engagement.

How is it impossible for people from every tribe and nation to believe Jesus is the literal Son of God?

Matthew "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"

Luke "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem"

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

Matthew "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

It may be that I just don't understand what you might be taking issue with pertaining to the traditional views EZ is referring to?

[Assent]

How is it impossible for people from every tribe and nation to believe Jesus is the literal Son of God?

Erm, history? Several civilizations have grown, lived, and died both before and after Jesus' lifetime. The Mayans, for example, were created as a nation and died out as a nation after the AD/CE advent, and without having ever heard of Christianity. Thus, while it could be argued that "every tribe" would refer to the descendants of long-forgotten tribal divides and thus count as all present-day humans, it cannot be logically argued that every nation--nations that have finite beginning and ending points--could have even heard of Christianity.

[Fisherking]

How is it impossible for people from every tribe and nation to believe Jesus is the literal Son of God?

Erm, history? Several civilizations have grown, lived, and died both before and after Jesus' lifetime. The Mayans, for example, were created as a nation and died out as a nation after the AD/CE advent, and without having ever heard of Christianity. Thus, while it could be argued that "every tribe" would refer to the descendants of long-forgotten tribal divides and thus count as all present-day humans, it cannot be logically argued that every nation--nations that have finite beginning and ending points--could have even heard of Christianity.

.....assuming those that have died will never hear the gospel.

If it is possible to hear gospel after death, it is possible for people from every tribe and nation to either accept or reject Jesus as the literal Son of God.

[achilles12604]

Yes, all men must go through Jesus in order to reach salvation. No, judgement of God is not based strictly on ahderance to traditional christianity.

In your opinion, is it based on adherance to any principles at all?

Not necessarily. Having reviewed Jesus words, I have decided that salvation is a matter of God's reading of our souls as only he can.

A set standard of rules and regs I believe has no impact on god's decision.

Related question for Easyrider. If you take the position that all men must accept Jesus by name and believe in him as the litteral son of God and reject all other faiths as evil and false in order to attain salvation

Daniel 7:13-15

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

"every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord". ----willingly or unwillingly in my opinion.

Unwillingly? So God will eventually force his will on everyone? What was the point of free will then?

Isn't this interpreted better as being that some from every nation will be saved and will willingly bow, while anyone who has not bowed will not be at the assembly?

Acts 10:34-35
34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

The conditions for acceptance here would be fearing(revering) the God Peter was refering to (God of the Bible) and doing what is right (in the eyes of the God of the Bible) doesn't it?

Sure. Do you think that the actions, sacrifice, love and all around Christ like behavior of Ghandi would qualify as right in God's eyes? Who would be more likely to be justified before God. A man who says I am a sinner but saved because I believe the right things and adhere to the proper traditions, or someone who says "I don't think I am a sinner, but there is much suffering in the world and I must enter in and do what I can regardless of personal pain and sacrifice."

Acts 17:25-27
25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

Which God did this? Who would He like men to find?

Jer"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Rev "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

So God has already chosen those he wants and has allowed them to have access to traditional Christianity, but he doesn't want nor care about everyone else? Is God locked into a box of only offering salvation to those who have been lucky enough to receive a direct knock which told them about all the proper traditions of a good Christian?

Revelation 5:8-10

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

If this said something like "every tribe, language, people, nation, and [religion]" it would be tough to argue against what it is I think you are saying

How many Pirahã are in heaven? Zero I guess. The entire group is unworthy of salvation simply based on where God put them on Earth.

Revelation 7:9-10
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

Same as above

Same as above.

It is impossible for EVERY tribe and nation to have people represented by your rules of engagement.

How is it impossible for people from every tribe and nation to believe Jesus is the literal Son of God?

Matthew "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"

Luke "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem"

Wonderful. What about the Incas between 1438 and 1500? Just SOL huh?

Guess the words of Jesus didn't get there fast enough. to bad. You are all going to hell because wooden sailing ships carrying the blessed words of God himself, dictated only to us, didn't reach you in time. Sorry bout that.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

Matthew "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

It may be that I just don't understand what you might be taking issue with pertaining to the traditional views EZ is referring to?

I think you might be getting the issues just fine. I can not believe that God would condemn millions of people simply based on the fact that they never heard of Jesus before they died. Or better yet, I can not believe that God would condemn people for refusing to accept a faith which is introduced at the end of a gun. . . . like oh say . . . Ghandi?

[Beto]

The conditions for acceptance here would be fearing(revering) the God Peter was refering to (God of the Bible) and doing what is right (in the eyes of the God of the Bible) doesn't it?

In what way is "fearing" God the same as "revering" God? How do you come to this conclusion? I see Christians refer to the terms like they're synonyms (when it relates to God of course) but I'm yet to hear a proper explanation on it, because they're never the same on any other context.