Christian and Not Christian - Sotomone vs OnceConvinced

[Sotomone]

First let me start off by thanking OnceConvinced for accepting this challenge. Now I will go ahead and state the terms of this H2H debate.

We both agreed that I will be debating against Convinced that anyone may be a Christian. And continue to be a Christian. While he will be debating how you cannot be a Christian. What does and doesn't make someone a true Christian. And we will both appreciate insight you have on this once this is opened in the chat sub-forum. We of course will keep this civil and polite and very enjoyable. ^^

On another note I am very glad to begin this debate with OnceConvinced and very exciting because it is a promising one. And we will both be using the bible as our source.

I may also like to note I might not use the bible for every post I will use real life situations where someone may still be a Christian and I will try my best to use the bible as a source. Thank you for your patience.

Alright then that's it. Let's begin.

[OnceConvinced]

Thanks to Sotomone for challenging me to this debate. I agree that the bible can be used as a source as well as real world examples.

Although I am no longer a Christian myself, I believe the bible is quite clear on certain criterias when it comes to what makes a true Christian and I will be arguing in favour of these, from the perspective that God is real and the bible is the authority.

I shall now await Sotomone to make his opening argument.

[Sotomone]

Alright I will start my argument with this. The confession booth this is a place found in many church's and used to confess your bad sins within. And is where it is said god forgives you. This allows people to continue to be Christian without any weight upon there shoulders and still be Christian even after such sins. These sins can be of many of course. But they are forgiven and still accepted as Christians and considered Christian.

Now for a statement from the bible.

Mat 7:7: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge other, you will be judged, and with measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Christians Judge every day and are still considered Christian by the masses. These Christians judge Atheist by such statements as you will go to hell, or you will not be accepted in the gates of heaven.

Now OnceConvinced what do you say to this little part within the bible? And really even after they judge all they need to do is ask for forgiveness. And there still a Christian even though they continue to judge and ask for forgiveness.

The next part of the Bible I would like to state is...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.

Does this not say for only to believe in him you can remain with him. That this will also make you a Christian no matter what? That even if you may sin you can still remain within such a standing.

And finally I would like to state nor am I any longer a Christian so that this may be very interesting.

[OnceConvinced]

Alright I will start my argument with this. The confession booth this is a place found in many church's and used to confess your bad sins within. And is where it is said god forgives you. This allows people to continue to be Christian without any weight upon there shoulders and still be Christian even after such sins. These sins can be of many of course. But they are forgiven and still accepted as Christians and considered Christian.

Mat 7:7: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge other, you will be judged, and with measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Christians Judge every day and are still considered Christian by the masses. These Christians judge Atheist by such statements as you will go to hell, or you will not be accepted in the gates of heaven.

Now OnceConvinced what do you say to this little part within the bible? And really even after they judge all they need to do is ask for forgiveness. And there still a Christian even though they continue to judge and ask for forgiveness.

The confession booth is mainly a Catholic tradition, not seen in your average protestant church. But I acknowledge your main point here and that is that God continues to forgive the sins. His death on the cross allows for that continued forgiveness. Christians will of course continue to sin and just because one sins does not necessarily mean they will lose their salvation, otherwise there would be no Christians. However I will show that belief just isn't enough and that salvation can be lost if you don't follow the "fine print" in the bible.

The next part of the Bible I would like to state is...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned.

Does this not say for only to believe in him you can remain with him. That this will also make you a Christian no matter what? That even if you may sin you can still remain within such a standing.

But James elaborates on this later:

James 2:19-22
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

This scripture here shows that belief alone is not enough. After all, the demons believe, but they won’t be saved, will they? Faith must have works to go along with it and there are many scriptures that show that lack of certain actions can result in you facing God’s wrath.
I won’t get into a list of those things in this post, otherwise it will be too long, but I will show you the following scriptures:

Mat 7:16-23
"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

See, here once again we see that belief is not enough. You must also show the fruits. This is the biggie. If you are not exhibiting the fruits of the holy spirit then it could very well be you are not actually a true Christian at all and God will say to you “I never knew you�.

Even though you may have cast out demons and done wonders, he still rejects you. Now how did you do that? It seems likely you could only do it, if you had God’s power to do it, I can see no other possibility. So you must have been a true Christian at one point, otherwise you would not have had that power. But yet still God rejects you. Why? The answer seems obvious. Because you are not showing the fruits, ie. Not showing works with your faith. In other words you have lost your salvation.

.................

At this point I would also like to throw out arguments for things that one must do to consider themselves a true Christian to begin with. I think this is a key when it comes to being able to determine who the true Christians really are. To just believe is not enough. I will start off with one that shows you must do more than believe to become a Christian:

Luk 14:26-27
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Pretty much, it’s saying you have to give up everything to follow him. If you don’t, you can’t be his disciple to being with.

Also see:
Luke 18:18-22
A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, 'do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.'"
And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

It's quite clear here to obtain eternal life one must do these things. If they are not doing these things, then it may very well be they were never true Christians to begin with.

[Sotomone]

Let me start with saying this. Very good argument and very good points brought up. Now onto my argument. xP

James 2:19-22
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Very good point but with exceptional studies into demons and I am sure we will both agree on this. Demons are truly damned, there is no saving them spawns of hell created by a dark god. This goes for all religions that believe in a place that is truly ruled by such darkness, such evil, anything this evil may believe once it’s born there is no saving it. But all in that yes I agree with you there someone can still fall from this god’s grace with a simple refusal to accept. But let’s take a look at this….

ROM 3:22 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god.

The reason why this one is so short is because it is actually extremely important. It is saying as you probably well know that there is no man that has not sinned. Off my last post as you noted James 2:19-22 this is probably still contradicting in it’s self. But still the person may continue to be Christian just for asking for forgiveness and there Sin’s to be purged. But even this verse says it so they continue to be Christians even if they sin greatly. And do it on a daily basis.

Mat 7:16-23
"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

See, here once again we see that belief is not enough. You must also show the fruits. This is the biggie. If you are not exhibiting the fruits of the holy spirit then it could very well be you are not actually a true Christian at all and God will say to you “I never knew you�.

Ps 25:8 Good and upright is the Lord; therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.

Ps 86:5 You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you.

It goes on and on and this shows how much god can forgive someone for there wronging. So if they do not follow the path they can simply ask for forgiveness. And this goes to show that no matter how far someone might fall. Say me or you for example we agree that there is no god. And for that if we where to ever say god existed then asked for forgiveness for wronging him then we would be forgiven. To say someone returns to being Christian all there sins are instantly forgiven by there god and they and free of there wronging.

I understand that I am using the same tactic of stating that god uses forgiveness and this is quite well known. But it is also extremely important towards this factor because I see it like this. As long as someone request to be forgiven they remain a Christian. Yeah as you brought up there is certain paths to follow in order to remain a Christian. But the bible seems to contradicts it’s self in this matter. Now my major basis would be on factors of how the Christian community will continue to accept them.

As I stated in another post within these forums on death roll a inmate may request a priest for his final rights and to request forgiveness, this is another thing. Wouldn’t this count as falling from grace of gods will? To be the bad fruit and it needs to be cut down? And this person is given salvation through prayer and remains a Christian after death. In the long run it would be god to decide this person’s fate. But if he asked for forgiveness then he would be allowed in heaven this makes it where he remains as a Christian. Are the exceptions that make the fruits of your labor voided by simply requesting forgiveness?

-----------------------

Luk 14:26-27
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Pretty much, it’s saying you have to give up everything to follow him. If you don’t, you can’t be his disciple to being with.

Also see:
Luke 18:18-22
A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. "You know the commandments, 'do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.'"
And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

It's quite clear here to obtain eternal life one must do these things. If they are not doing these things, then it may very well be they were never true Christians to begin with.

Ah but here is where it gets sketchy my friend. XD! At first one can completely deny it and then turn around and accept it. This is the point I am trying to show you all in all. That no matter even if you refuse him and then accept him you continue to be a Christian. Let’s look back up at my one post about how it says in the bible that he instructs sinners in his way. Meaning he hopes to bring them back to his light and offers them that they still may be Christian.

And let’s look at another part of the bible that will help shed light on how you can always be a Christian.

Mat 23:27-28 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead mens bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Now let’s look onto baptism after viewing that part. As it says we are full of sin but to cleanse our self’s we must be baptized. And once this is done we are once more cleansed and free of all our dark deeds. So it is simple to just wash away every thing and continue to be Christian. This goes to show just another sign where even if you might not follow the path you may find your self cleansed once again and remain Christian. You are simply only slipping from your path.

[OnceConvinced]

I can see that your main point is that everything a Christian does can be forgiven. Ultimately a Christian can do anything, but yet still consider themselves saved just by asking for forgiveness.

However in your first post you claim that all that is needed to be a Christian is belief. Clearly this is not the case, though, because even you yourself admit that forgiveness is needed for sins. So belief alone is not enough and I think I've adequately shown that to be the case in my last couple of posts.

Clearly without repentence, no one can consider themselves a Christian if they keep on sinning. Even you yourself admit that forgiveness must be asked for. So therefore if forgiveness is not asked for, they can no longer consider themselves saved.

So what happens if a Christian sins and doesn't realise they have sinned? What if they forget to ask for forgiveness? What then? They cannot consider themselves forgiven so cannot consider themselves saved.

Scripture is quite clear about the issue of forgiveness and the ramifications of continued sin:

1Jo 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1Jo 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

These scriptures in themselves are very damning. How much will God forgive? Probably not forever going by these scriptures. In fact the first verse seems to say that if they continue to sin, they were obviously not true Christians to begin with! The second one says that a true Christians CANNOT go on sinning. It even says that if we see a Christian sinning, then we can know they are not children of God, but in fact children of the talking snake himself!

Also note that to be forgiven you must first forgive others...

Mat 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Also Matt 18. Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

So if a Christian is harbouring any unforgiveness towards someone they cannot expect forgiveness from God, so are royally screwed.

God is also condemning of anyone who does not help those in need. See Matthew 25:34-36. If you are not doing the things outlined in those scriptures you will be condemned on Judgement Day. At this point it will be too late to ask for forgiveness, won't it? God will say "I never knew you".

The only way to avoid this judgement is to realise while you are a Christian that you need to do this stuff. If you haven't been doing that and ask for forgiveness then proceed to do that, then no problems. But if you continue not to do that stuff, then you clearly won't be saved come Judgement Day.

And let’s look at another part of the bible that will help shed light on how you can always be a Christian.

Mat 23:27-28 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead mens bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Jesus was condemning the religious folk, the ones who try to appear holy and pious but deep down are sinful. No doubt Jesus would say the same today about a lot of Christians who pretend to be good on the outside, but within, they are no better than anyone else. This scripture alone would show that just because you claim to be a Christian doesn't mean you really are one.

Now let’s look onto baptism after viewing that part. As it says we are full of sin but to cleanse our self’s we must be baptized. And once this is done we are once more cleansed and free of all our dark deeds. So it is simple to just wash away every thing and continue to be Christian. This goes to show just another sign where even if you might not follow the path you may find your self cleansed once again and remain Christian. You are simply only slipping from your path.

Interesting you should bring up baptism. Although I never subscribed to it as a Christian, the bible quite clearly states that to be saved you must be baptised. Therefore any Christian who is not baptised cannot be assured salvation.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

..............................
So as you can see, there are examples above where asking for forgiveness is not going to work. There are even times where it will be too late to ask for forgiveness. Those Christians will find that God rejects them and has his angels do his dirty work by casting them into the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This scripture does not exclude Christians, does it?

[Sotomone]

Well I apologize for the time it’s taken for this reply. But here it goes.
However in your first post you claim that all that is needed to be a Christian is belief. Clearly this is not the case, though, because even you yourself admit that forgiveness is needed for sins. So belief alone is not enough and I think I've adequately shown that to be the case in my last couple of posts.

Clearly without repentence, no one can consider themselves a Christian if they keep on sinning. Even you yourself admit that forgiveness must be asked for. So therefore if forgiveness is not asked for, they can no longer consider themselves saved.

Well first of all, all of the contradictions even drive me insane some times. I even contradicted my self which is rather amusing. So you have proven your point here. But it is these contradictions that cause Christianity to be one of those religions that are extremely flawed in my opinion.

1Jo 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1Jo 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Well since I am unable to access a bible and skim through it I will give my own personal thoughts on this for the first time around. That is the thing even though Christian might not realize they have sinned they continue to attend church and worship god. And give “it� there belief’s, this can be a little complicated since a lot of the time it is said that God’s standards are so very high even someone that is perfectly squeaky clean is a sinner. So Jesus sacrificed him self so that people can be forgiven. So this is a major contradiction.

While the person may sin Jesus gave up his life in order to cleanse so called sins and help them be forgiven so not realizing they had done a sin they are forgiven as long as they continue to hold faith and do not forsake Jesus or there God. And as for God forgiving he does not forgive at all according to Christians he would probably send everyone to this so called hell. But Jesus helps with forgiveness. God has extremely high standards for anyone they must be perfect but this world does not have such a thing as perfect. So what can you argue with this? There is no “TRUE� forgiveness. Which is confusing in it’s self…

Also Matt 18. Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

So if a Christian is harbouring any unforgiveness towards someone they cannot expect forgiveness from God, so are royally screwed.

God is also condemning of anyone who does not help those in need. See Matthew 25:34-36. If you are not doing the things outlined in those scriptures you will be condemned on Judgement Day. At this point it will be too late to ask for forgiveness, won't it? God will say "I never knew you".

The only way to avoid this judgement is to realise while you are a Christian that you need to do this stuff. If you haven't been doing that and ask for forgiveness then proceed to do that, then no problems. But if you continue not to do that stuff, then you clearly won't be saved come Judgement Day.

Hmm it is extremely difficult to argue with this specific part. What if someone had just sinned on this very day or broken one of God’s high standards. Does Jesus forgiveness count on this day? I have no clue and Judgement day truly isn’t some thing I’ve truly delved into. But what I see here is pretty much the bible contradicting on what it says about forgiveness and forgiving others. If someone apologizes in court but the judge still throws the book at them and said Judge is Christian the Judge did not forgive there trespasses then god will not forgive them. But yet the bible says to follow the rules of others. But they didn’t does God hate the fact that his people brake the law of man and yet at the same time those that convict them brake his word and do not forgive? So this is a little complicated.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

My apologies I should have noted on this. When I put this part I was showing that the people where bad but even with those words can they not be forgiven there inner sins? According to the bible and religious teaching anything can be forgiven within Jesus eye’s at least am I right or wrong? Hmm it would all depend on who eyes they are trying to be forgiven in. God’s or Jesus. They are apparently have two different views.

So as you can see, there are examples above where asking for forgiveness is not going to work. There are even times where it will be too late to ask for forgiveness. Those Christians will find that God rejects them and has his angels do his dirty work by casting them into the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This scripture does not exclude Christians, does it?

Defiantly includes Christians. I understand that Christians are under there God’s watchful eye but still they try and force the view that only Christians can be saved. But they take it like even if you are not if you become Christian you may be saved.

Hope this is suiting. ^^

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Sotomone. Glad to see you've responded. I too have been absent for a while. I did have a quick reread of our debate so far, so I hope I don't repeat anything we've already debated...

Well since I am unable to access a bible and skim through it I will give my own personal thoughts on this for the first time around. That is the thing even though Christian might not realize they have sinned they continue to attend church and worship god. And give “it� there belief’s, this can be a little complicated since a lot of the time it is said that God’s standards are so very high even someone that is perfectly squeaky clean is a sinner. So Jesus sacrificed him self so that people can be forgiven. So this is a major contradiction.

While the person may sin Jesus gave up his life in order to cleanse so called sins and help them be forgiven so not realizing they had done a sin they are forgiven as long as they continue to hold faith and do not forsake Jesus or there God. And as for God forgiving he does not forgive at all according to Christians he would probably send everyone to this so called hell. But Jesus helps with forgiveness. God has extremely high standards for anyone they must be perfect but this world does not have such a thing as perfect. So what can you argue with this? There is no “TRUE� forgiveness. Which is confusing in it’s self…

What you seem to be suggesting here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that upon initial salvation, you are covered for all sins you may commit from that point on, so there is no need to continue to ask for forgiveness. This, although a nice though, appears to be a popular belief with little biblical support. Nevertheless, in my previous post I have shown that to harbour unforgiveness against another, means God will not forgive you, so therefore you are not guaranteed forgiveness forever just by accepting Christ as your personal saviour.

My apologies I should have noted on this. When I put this part I was showing that the people where bad but even with those words can they not be forgiven there inner sins? According to the bible and religious teaching anything can be forgiven within Jesus eye’s at least am I right or wrong? Hmm it would all depend on who eyes they are trying to be forgiven in. God’s or Jesus. They are apparently have two different views.

Interesting you should bring this question up. It seems that many horrible sins can be forgiven. For instance if Adolf Hitler repented on his death bed, God would welcome him into Heaven with open arms. The worst serial killers and child molesters in history would be given the red carpet into Heaven. However the bible does speak of one unforgiveable sin - Blaspheming the Holy spirit.

Mark 3:29-30 (NIV) "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

This is a very serious thing according to the bible. It seems that the Holy Spirit has a delicate ego and cannot handle anyone saying anything against it. Some will claim that to blaspheme the holy spirit is to reject it after having it in your life. (which is further proof that a Christian can lose their salvation). However to blaspheme is also to: "To speak of, or address, with impious irreverence; to revile impiously (anything sacred);"

"Blasphemy" could equal any irreverent comments at all. This opens up a can of worms, because what is classed as irreverent? You could be considered irreverent if you make a joke about the HS. You could be considered irreverent if you claim the HS has told you something, when it hasn't or say that the HS is stirring you when it hasn't. What about one of the biggest errors Christians make... that is when they claim that the Holy Spirit has given them true understanding of a particular scripture, but yet what they say contradicts another so called "spirit filled" Christian. What an insult to the Holy Spirit that would be if we are wrong? But yet how do we know for sure we aren't really getting our understanding from ourself and not from the HS at all? What an insult! What blasphemy to claim otherwise!

What a HUGE risk we take whenever we talk about or make claims about the HS. How can any Christian be assured they have not blasphemed it in some way? And if a Christian has blasphemed it, then they cannot possibly be forgiven, EVER! What a huge condition on your salvation. Don't, whatever you do blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Don't even think about it, because remember, thinking about something is the same as doing it according to the bible!

[Sotomone]

What you seem to be suggesting here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that upon initial salvation, you are covered for all sins you may commit from that point on, so there is no need to continue to ask for forgiveness. This, although a nice though, appears to be a popular belief with little biblical support. Nevertheless, in my previous post I have shown that to harbour unforgiveness against another, means God will not forgive you, so therefore you are not guaranteed forgiveness forever just by accepting Christ as your personal saviour.

Of course I see what you mean here. And yeah it is a extremely nice thought that you can be forgiven permently. But there's also the fact that they seem to allow multiple blessing or lay on hands(Not exactly sure what that is all about.) But to be freed from evil is one of the ways to be forgiven to do so is usually the strongest forgiveness any religion offers. There ways differ. But I've been baptised multiple times. And I guess this offers freedom from such evils every time.

Mark 3:29-30 (NIV) "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

Very interesting you should use this as a reason to sin. And the fact you brought up that this or that can be considered irrelevant. I actually went through a lot of trouble to figure out what can possibly brake this. What can absolve someone of doing such a thing. To brake the Christians highest law. How do you avoid something like this? How do you even keep your self from doing this? But to never be forgiven. According to the Christians this scripture only counts on the ordeal of that some factors must be met. My scources are people now. Not the bible, so ofcourse this is not completely valuable information to be used. BUT IT IS THE ONLY information that can be used.

According to the bible to Blashpemy the holy spirit is the greatest sin and there is no way to cleanse it. But according to social accounts this can only be done on Judgement day. To Blashemy the holy spirit or as the social network says you must never god exist with the proof laid out in front of you. So if god was to one day show up in your kitchen and sit down with you and speak with you and tell you everything. And then you say directly to him. You do not exist you have blashemied god. Or the holy spirit this is the unforgivable sin.

To me this does not make sense. I mean really isn't any of these things suppose to happen no matter the circumstance? But it truly seems that the christians have added. Laws. Even though the bible says one thing. And then the Christians say another. Even this may be forgiven, as long as when he presents him self before you to plead your misunderstanding to say you did not know. Because he had never been presented him self before you that man is flawed because man only can know what is shown to him. Maybe the christians on here have been told differently.

On a final note. The social accounts I've gotten where from a very religious family during my time with my ex, so please do forgive me if not all Christians agree with this. But it's the only arguement on the holy spirit I could give that seemed to have any value in this H2H debate. As well, is there any other unforgivable sins? Just got to know if there is.