Reducing the number of abortions

[mrmufin]

Otseng has mentioned this topic a few times, and I think it's worthy of discussion:

How can the number of abortions be lowered?

Remember, folks: this forum is for discussion toward a common objective, not for debate on the issue of abortion...

Regards,
mrmufin

[BeHereNow]

NaturalWay: For example, one non-negotiable principle many Christians and non-Christians alike can agree on is that each person owns his or her own life. From this idea, one reasons that slavery is wrong. Now, given that principle which you must advance, it should be straightforward to use genetics to show that the fetus is a distinct person and therefore owns its own life.

From your comments, I see no evidence that a fetus is a distinct person.
First, identical twins are genetically identical, not distinct. If genetics determines personhood, your reasoning fails.
This begs the question of what does determine personhood. It appears you have made the leap to conception determining personhood, but with no supporting reasoning or evidence. I have no reason to believe that conception determines personhood. To the contrary, a zygote has nearly none of the characteristics I associate with personhood. I would be interested in your definition of person(hood) which includes zygotes.

[NaturalWay]

You are correct that "person" is not a biological concept; it is a philosophical concept. The question was never really whether each person has a distinct genome (DNA signature), but whether a person can be distinguished objectively in this way from it's MOTHER. I'm sure we can do that.

[BeHereNow]

And that distinction gives a human zygote personhood?
Might a parasite in the body of a host also have personhood?

[NaturalWay]

Have you taken a page from the Christian apologists who present a litany of answers without actually giving thought to the questions asked?

Does the hypothetical parasite have the same mother as the fetus? No. I can make the superfluous argument as well that cats and dogs, for example are not "small, hairy persons". Must I really qualify my previous response by saying HUMAN GENOME? By the way, the genome of every kitten or puppy can be distinguished from it's own mother.

[BeHereNow]

I am merely trying to determine how you determine a human zygote has personhood.
The only criterea you mentioned is that there are different genetic markers than the mother. A parasiet satisfies this requirement.
If you do not know why you feel a zygote has personhood, just say so.
It may be merely an emotional belief, which needs no reason.

[QED]

The wish has been expressed by the admin of this forum that we put our heads together constructively here. We are working from the premise that we want to reduce the number of abortions not whether abortion is right or wrong.

[NaturalWay]

Let me reiterate for the benefit of BeHereNow and QED that:

1) Secular philosophy alone can be used to establish that the condition of "personhood" brings with it the right of self-ownership.

2) Distinction of a human zygote from its human mother is a demonstrable, repeatable process which requires no faith.

3) The "personhood" of the zygote can be inferred from logic and this philosophy without appeal to personal beliefs or emotion.

4) The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to make them illegal. The best way to make something illegal (e.g. gambling, prostitution, slavery, torture) is to convince the overwhelming number of people that it is wrong.

[QED]

Let me reiterate for the benefit of BeHereNow and QED that:

1) Secular philosophy alone can be used to establish that the condition of "personhood" brings with it the right of self-ownership.

2) Distinction of a human zygote from its human mother is a demonstrable, repeatable process which requires no faith.

3) The "personhood" of the zygote can be inferred from logic and this philosophy without appeal to personal beliefs or emotion.

4) The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to make them illegal. The best way to make something illegal (e.g. gambling, prostitution, slavery, torture) is to convince the overwhelming number of people that it is wrong.

If anyone feels the need to debate any of the first three points please start up a new topic in one of the debating sub-forums. Thanks

[ST88]

4) The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to make them illegal. The best way to make something illegal (e.g. gambling, prostitution, slavery, torture) is to convince the overwhelming number of people that it is wrong.

Absolutely! Criminalizing something is the best way to reduce it. This is how we were able to reduce drug usage in the U.S., and why there is now very little prostitution, little immigrant labor exploitation, and absolutely no corruption in government; and it is also why Las Vegas is a withering ghost town. This is a can't miss idea because once abortion is re-illegalized, there will be no abortion statistics -- and statistics don't lie.

[NaturalWay]

Don't misunderstand. I am against the criminalization of VICTIMLESS behaviors such as those you and I mention. I still maintain that making abortions illegal will be the best way of reducing their number while at the same time admit that even this will be as ineffective as government solutions are generally.