What is "faith"?

[otseng]

Faith is an often used word here that means many things to many people. I'd like to explore here some definitions of how people define faith.

My personal definition:
- A belief that does not have a proof.

Dictionary.com:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

KJV:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.

2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.

3. (Theol.)
(a) The belief in the historic truthfulness of the Scripture narrative, and the supernatural origin of its teachings, sometimes called historical and speculative faith.
(b) The belief in the facts and truth of the Scriptures, with a practical love of them; especially, that confiding and affectionate belief in the person and work of Christ, which affects the character and life, and makes a man a true Christian, -- called a practical, evangelical, or saving faith.

4. That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; and especially, the system of truth taught by Christ; as, the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church.

Wiktionary:

1. Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without evidence supporting the claim, and often in spite of evidence to the contrary.

2. (Christian theology) Belief and trust in God's promises revealed through Christ and the Scriptures.

3. A feeling or belief, not dependent on evidence, that something is true, real, or will happen.

4. A trust in the intentions or abilities of a person or object.

5. (countable) A system of religious belief.

6. An obligation of loyalty or fidelity.

7. The observance of such an obligation.

[OnceConvinced]

I don't think it matters what your exact definition of faith is. I think that when it comes down to it, it's about the strength of your faith. And I strongly believe that that comes down to a persons stubborness ie. the unwillingness to change their opinion or open their mind. The stronger your faith, the more stubborn you are as a person. I've seen it through the many years I've spent as a Christian and the different churches I've been to. Even when it comes to non-christian things, these people with so-called faith will not budge on issues.

Those with weak faith are the type of people who switch their opinions regularly. They are easily swayed and if they hear a good argument, they will go along with it. They are easily lead.

[jeremiah]

I don't think it matters what your exact definition of faith is. I think that when it comes down to it, it's about the strength of your faith. And I strongly believe that that comes down to a persons stubborness ie. the unwillingness to change their opinion or open their mind. The stronger your faith, the more stubborn you are as a person. I've seen it through the many years I've spent as a Christian and the different churches I've been to. Even when it comes to non-christian things, these people with so-called faith will not budge on issues.

I am not to sure about the whole being "stubborn thing". That kind of tells me that the person or group of people being spoken about is not willing to discuss their belief and have it challenged. And if a person is not willing to have that, then to say that their faith "is growing" or is "stronger" is really their own refusal to grow, it is their stubborness that is strong. I have seen in Christianity where they say that their faith is strong and yet they aren't willing to discuss it or even have it challenged, so if something isn't challenged then their faith isn't growing, only their own stubborness. It can come down to saying, "I am right, you are wrong." Their own "rightness" is dependant on some one else's "wrongness". When speaking of Christianity as well as the sources it comes from, one must always check their sources and varify their authenticity, then the definition is usually based off that.

Those with weak faith are the type of people who switch their opinions regularly. They are easily swayed and if they hear a good argument, they will go along with it. They are easily lead.

Very good. This is also what the Bible teaches, that a person who lacks faith, or trust as the word is also translated, is not only easily lead, but, as is said, tossed back and forth by every type of teaching out there.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (NIV)

Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. (CJB-Complete Jewish Bible)

Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen. (DBY-Darby Translation)

To understand what the Bible means by faith I suggest a reading of what the examples given in Hebrews 11. Faith, or trust, is revealed through an action which are based off a certain belief. I have found that that is where the study if faith begins, in actions. Hope this helps.

[OnceConvinced]

To understand what the Bible means by faith I suggest a reading of what the examples given in Hebrews 11. Faith, or trust, is revealed through an action which are based off a certain belief. I have found that that is where the study if faith begins, in actions. Hope this helps.

I do understand the bible version of faith, it's just that until recently, I never bothered to think to hard about the type of people that exhibit strong faith. You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc.

I don't agree that stubborn means you are unwilling to discuss your beliefs. Nor do I think that being stubborn means you hate having your beliefs challenged (but then again who likes having their beliefs challenged?). When it comes to the meaning of the word "stubborn" I prefer to go with the dictionary meaning (Oxford):

determined not to change one’s attitude or position. 2 difficult to move, remove, or cure.
To me a Christian who has a strong faith exhibits those traits.

I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations. But I think the comparison is very apt.

[jeremiah]

To understand what the Bible means by faith I suggest a reading of what the examples given in Hebrews 11. Faith, or trust, is revealed through an action which are based off a certain belief. I have found that that is where the study if faith begins, in actions. Hope this helps.

I do understand the bible version of faith, it's just that until recently, I never bothered to think to hard about the type of people that exhibit strong faith. You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc.

I don't agree that stubborn means you are unwilling to discuss your beliefs. Nor do I think that being stubborn means you hate having your beliefs challenged (but then again who likes having their beliefs challenged?). When it comes to the meaning of the word "stubborn" I prefer to go with the dictionary meaning (Oxford):

determined not to change one’s attitude or position. 2 difficult to move, remove, or cure.
To me a Christian who has a strong faith exhibits those traits.

I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations. But I think the comparison is very apt.

Let me ask you then, in what way are they being stubborn, in what beliefs? Give examples. Did you ever look more, or study, as to what faith is rather then saying that this is what it is due to your own stubbornness or your own point of view? I mean, come on, we're all a bit stubborn as to what we say, we can't deny that. And that is where the "finger pointing" begins. Some times our view can be scewed by our own biased views and opinions. And that itself can be stubbornness. Not everyone of faith doesn't mind being called stubborn because they know that they can't change any one's mind but that one person. So your saying that "I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations," is jumping the gun because not usually everyone, even those of no faith, don't like being called that. So your inclusive statement is wrongly stated. When you say things like that, you must say, "some", or "not all". That will give your argument more bearing in the end.

So you say "the comparison is very apt" but you think the people of faith don't like it due to its negative connotations. And that is exactly what you enjoy about it and why you believe it. Otherwise, you would not have posted this thread.

Let me ask you another question, if you are willing to actually understand rather then bring negativity through your view of some one else's personal belief, did or have you ever considered what conviction means? why don't you give some examples for when you said, "You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc." (Again, an inclusive statement.) Maybe, if you ever thought of this, that a person is not really a person of "faith" but they use faith to help them in their life, yet they, in the end, hurt people who are of religious persuation and give them a bad name.

Once again, please make, non-inclusive statements and bring examples to your posts. This will help your arguments and show you are not totally biased.

[OnceConvinced]

Let me ask you then, in what way are they being stubborn, in what beliefs? Give examples.

There's no need to give specific examples of beliefs. You can see it in general. Pastors of churches for instance have their beliefs and are not open to correction by other Christians. I have seen this in a church my family once belonged to where other members of the church tried to correct the pastor, but he would not budge.

The stronger the faith, the less likely you are going to budge from a particular perspective. All you need to do is open your eyes and see.

One can even see on message boards such as this that those with strong faith will not budge on a belief no matter what. Those who do budge from a firmly held belief tend to be the ones that fall from the faith.

Did you ever look more, or study, as to what faith is rather then saying that this is what it is due to your own stubbornness or your own point of view?

I have done numerous studies on faith over the years. This opinion I have now is a new one. It's an observation I have made in hindsight, having been one of the faithful myself. It was not my opinion on faith as a Christian.

I mean, come on, we're all a bit stubborn as to what we say, we can't deny that. And that is where the "finger pointing" begins. Some times our view can be scewed by our own biased views and opinions. And that itself can be stubbornness. Not everyone of faith doesn't mind being called stubborn because they know that they can't change any one's mind but that one person. So your saying that "I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations," is jumping the gun because not usually everyone, even those of no faith, don't like being called that. So your inclusive statement is wrongly stated. When you say things like that, you must say, "some", or "not all". That will give your argument more bearing in the end.

Fine, change my wording to "some" then. It really is irrelevent to my point.

So you say "the comparison is very apt" but you think the people of faith don't like it due to its negative connotations. And that is exactly what you enjoy about it and why you believe it. Otherwise, you would not have posted this thread.

Enjoy about it? I don't enjoy anything about it. It's a simple observation. It's not something I chose to believe, nor is it something I wish to believe. BTW, I didn't post this thread, Osteng did.

Let me ask you another question, if you are willing to actually understand rather then bring negativity through your view of some one else's personal belief, did or have you ever considered what conviction means? why don't you give some examples for when you said, "You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc." (Again, an inclusive statement.) Maybe, if you ever thought of this, that a person is not really a person of "faith" but they use faith to help them in their life, yet they, in the end, hurt people who are of religious persuation and give them a bad name.

I'm not arguing that people don't have conviction or that they have come to conclusions about God and what not. All I am simply pointing out is that those with the stronger faith are naturally the more stubborn people. I suggest you observe the Christians you know, see what they are like outside of their faith and I believe you'll find the most faithful ones are usually the most stubborn when it comes to anything, not just their Christian beliefs. Take a look!

Now you also bring up another way of looking at faith. And I've talked about this in another thread too. I see Faith in two different ways.

1) Faith as a noun. eg. Joe Bloggs has a strong faith. In other words he holds strong principle and convictions. He stands firm on the lord. 2) Faith as a verb (or more appropriately as an action). eg Joe Bloggs believed through faith he would be healed.

Number 2 is not an example of stubbornness. I believe this is the sort of faith you are talking about when you say people use faith. Faith as a tool rather than faith as a stance. Does that make sense?

However I'm talking about number 1. An example of that may be "I have faith that the bible is telling the truth when it says..." This is where stubborness can and normally will come in. "I won't budge from that belief, because the Holy Spirit has guided me to this belief". That sort of thing.

[jeremiah]

[quote:d3a7a4336c=\"jeremiah\"]
Let me ask you then, in what way are they being stubborn, in what beliefs? Give examples.[/quote:d3a7a4336c]
There\'s no need to give specific examples of beliefs. You can see it in general. Pastors of churches for instance have their beliefs and are not open to correction by other Christians. I have seen this in a church my family once belonged to where other members of the church tried to correct the pastor, but he would not budge.

The stronger the faith, the less likely you are going to budge from a particular perspective. All you need to do is open your eyes and see.

One can even see on message boards such as this that those with strong faith will not budge on a belief no matter what. Those who do budge from a firmly held belief tend to be the ones that fall from the faith.

Open my eyes and see what? And you are right in saying that “those who do “budge� from a “firmly� held belief tend to be the ones that fall from the faith�. This also goes back to the importance of what you said earlier: “Those with weak faith are the type of people who switch their opinions regularly. They are easily swayed and if they hear a good argument, they will go along with it. They are easily lead.� (And since this is the case, I can’t help but ask, if given the chance, would you want to be someone with strong or weak faith?)

My questions to these two statements are, did they really believe? Was there faith strong in the first place? Some people use the whole religious garb to mask what they think they are lacking or need, no matter what it is, control, power, weakness, etc. Couldn’t that be a reason rather then “people of strong faith is being stubborn�? What the pastor was being stubborn on we’ll never know, but a pastor who is not willing to listen to the body of believers at that place of meeting isn’t really a pastor to me, he is someone who just likes to hear himself speak and make other people listen to him/her. That is being stubborn, yes, but even more so, prideful, not willing to listen or even to reason, not showing love or willing to be corrected. That is what he did. For me, that is not a person of “strong faith� but someone who uses faith as a coy to have power. That is logical because anyone can use religion, or anything for that matter, as such. But to say the people of strong faith are stubborn is a general statement.

I have seen people of strong faith, those who are humble, willing to learn, to grow, etc, but everyone is stubborn, as I said earlier. So to say that stubbornness is a characteristic of faith is an opinion, not a fact. Let us look more closely as to what you said: “The stronger your faith, the more stubborn you are as a person� and “You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc.�

1) You gage a person’s faith by a factor that is shared by people who aren’t of a “faith persuasion� too. I have meet non-Christians who are stubborn just as much as a Christian is. How can you use a gage like stubbornness when it is shared by people the world over?

2) You say that in a simple observation. How far has this observation gone? What type of people, background and such, have you observed to support this finding?

3) You said that you have done numerous studies on faith. Does this recent observation to your studies override all that you learned?

4) You said that you were one of the faithful. What made you decide to have a change of heart, so to speak? It isn’t the faith that is stubborn, but the person with the faith. I am sure in your studies you’ve come across this.

5) In your studies I am sure, at least I would like to think so, that you came across another definition of faith. It is called trust. If you have, what were your thoughts on it?

[quote:d3a7a4336c]
Did you ever look more, or study, as to what faith is rather then saying that this is what it is due to your own stubbornness or your own point of view? [/quote:d3a7a4336c]
I have done numerous studies on faith over the years. This opinion I have now is a new one. It\'s an observation I have made in hindsight, having been one of the faithful myself. It was not my opinion on faith as a Christian.

Did you ever really believe or were you just told to believe and something “special happens�? I have seen that most of the time the Gospel is presented in that sad fashion. Saying that “everything will go well and God will bless you with so much� when they present the Gospel is not saying the whole truth of the Gospel.

[quote:d3a7a4336c]
I mean, come on, we\'re all a bit stubborn as to what we say, we can\'t deny that. And that is where the \"finger pointing\" begins. Some times our view can be scewed by our own biased views and opinions. And that itself can be stubbornness. Not everyone of faith doesn\'t mind being called stubborn because they know that they can\'t change any one\'s mind but that one person. So your saying that \"I know people of faith don\'t like \"faith\" being compared to \"stubborness\" as it has negative connotations,\" is jumping the gun because not usually everyone, even those of no faith, don\'t like being called that. So your inclusive statement is wrongly stated. When you say things like that, you must say, \"some\", or \"not all\". That will give your argument more bearing in the end.[/quote:d3a7a4336c]
Fine, change my wording to \"some\" then. It really is irrelevant to my point.

Oh it is very relevant. When you use generalizing statements you narrow down your arguments as well as your hearers, or people you are trying to convince. I am not saying you are on here trying to convince anyone, it just shows that you are willing to look at the fuller picture that people are not all the same as we’d like them to be, it makes things easier when we do, unfortunately, it isn’t all true, or a fact really.

[quote:d3a7a4336c]
So you say \"the comparison is very apt\" but you think the people of faith don\'t like it due to its negative connotations. And that is exactly what you enjoy about it and why you believe it. Otherwise, you would not have posted this thread.[/quote:d3a7a4336c]
Enjoy about it? I don\'t enjoy anything about it. It\'s a simple observation. It\'s not something I chose to believe, nor is it something I wish to believe. BTW, I didn\'t post this thread, Osteng did.

If that is true what you said, then have you sought out other explanations as to what the cause of this stubbornness is?

[quote:d3a7a4336c]
Let me ask you another question, if you are willing to actually understand rather then bring negativity through your view of some one else\'s personal belief, did or have you ever considered what conviction means? why don\'t you give some examples for when you said, \"You will find that those with the strongest faith are also very stubborn people when it comes to their values, habits, methods etc.\" (Again, an inclusive statement.) Maybe, if you ever thought of this, that a person is not really a person of \"faith\" but they use faith to help them in their life, yet they, in the end, hurt people who are of religious persuasion and give them a bad name.[/quote:d3a7a4336c]
I'm not arguing that people don\'t have conviction or that they have come to conclusions about God and what not. All I am simply pointing out is that those with the stronger faith are naturally the more stubborn people. I suggest you observe the Christians you know, see what they are like outside of their faith and I believe you'll find the most faithful ones are usually the most stubborn when it comes to anything, not just their Christian beliefs. Take a look!

Now you also bring up another way of looking at faith. And I\'ve talked about this in another thread too. I see Faith in two different ways.

1) Faith as a noun. eg. Joe Blogs has a strong faith. In other words he holds strong principle and convictions. He stands firm on the lord. (Or he is very stubborn, ie he won\'t budge from his beliefs no matter what anybody tells him. (a lot like church leaders))

2) Faith as a verb. eg Joe Blogs believed with all his heart he would be healed.

Number 2 is not an example of stubbornness. I believe this is the sort of faith you are talking about when you say people use faith. Faith as a tool rather than faith as a stance. Does that make sense?

However I\'m talking about number 1. An example of that may be \"I have faith that the bible is telling the truth when it says...\" This is where stubborness can and normally will come in. \"I won\'t budge from that belief, because the Holy Spirit has guided me to this belief\".

I do believe that some are stubborn, yet others are not, just as I said before. I also know Christians who are yet search out for truth. The fact of the matter is that more often then not those who sit under a teacher, pastor, whatever, begin to think like that person. That is because they take in that person every day or once a week, I am not talking about just religion here but anything, and they read magazines, books by people who think like them to prove their point, etc. I recently finished a book about an important Christian doctrine. The writer, an influential Christian teacher in this doctrine, tried to make it sound convincing, and almost did, yet he left begging questions to answer. My father read the book and by me pointing out certain things, he never really thought about. I can also go to a bible study group and do the same thing and ask them to think about what they are taught. But will they? Who knows. Because that is what they are normally taught, to believe whatever is given them as truth, as fact. This is derived from a culture that runs off of feeding people whatever the feeder thinks the people want or need.

[OnceConvinced]

You gage a person’s faith by a factor that is shared by people who aren’t of a “faith persuasion� too. I have meet non-Christians who are stubborn just as much as a Christian is. How can you use a gage like stubbornness when it is shared by people the world over?

Yes, we call them stubborn. We don't try to claim they have faith do we? You want to see faith as being something special, however I don't see it as anything special.

2) You say that in a simple observation. How far has this observation gone? What type of people, background and such, have you observed to support this finding?

How far do you expect it to go?

3) You said that you have done numerous studies on faith. Does this recent observation to your studies override all that you learned?

No, as you can see by the two different ways I've identified of looking at faith.

I do admit it is a cynical view, but faith is about standing firm in your beliefs, despite evidence to the contrary. Stubborness is also standing firm despite evidence to the contrary. There really is no difference. It's just that one has negative connotations where the other has Godly connotations.

4) You said that you were one of the faithful. What made you decide to have a change of heart, so to speak? It isn’t the faith that is stubborn, but the person with the faith. I am sure in your studies you’ve come across this.

I agree with what you say there. It's the person with the faith that is stubborn. But the strength of their faith is determined by their stubborness IMO.

If you wish to read about my deconversion, here are some links:
Member spotlight
What made you give up?

5) In your studies I am sure, at least I would like to think so, that you came across another definition of faith. It is called trust. If you have, what were your thoughts on it?

Trust goes more along the lines with my ideas of faith as an action. If God told you say to go speak to a work colleague about Christ, then you trust that God will give you the right words to say. I have no problem with that concept of trust/faith. I guess you can also say that trust covers instances where you trust in God to provide. Once again, no problems. My issue with faith and stubborness is more to do with belief eg dogma, doctrine, translations of scripture. In hindsight just saying Faith is stubborness is too general. It's the way faith is applied.

Did you ever really believe or were you just told to believe and something “special happens�? I have seen that most of the time the Gospel is presented in that sad fashion. Saying that “everything will go well and God will bless you with so much� when they present the Gospel is not saying the whole truth of the Gospel.

I was taught to believe for things yes and there were times I had absolute faith in those things and there were times when positive outcomes resulted. However I did not expect everything to go well. I did not expect that God would give me everything I asked for.

Oh it is very relevant. When you use generalizing statements you narrow down your arguments as well as your hearers, or people you are trying to convince. I am not saying you are on here trying to convince anyone, it just shows that you are willing to look at the fuller picture that people are not all the same as we’d like them to be, it makes things easier when we do, unfortunately, it isn’t all true, or a fact really.

I said:

I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations. But I think the comparison is very apt.

Looking at this now I did not say "I know ALL people of faith...". All I said was that "people of faith..." I can't actually see why you are nitpicking here. Whether it is all people or just some it hardly matters. The fact is there are people out there who don't like being referred to as stubborn. This was such a minor point, to nitpick at it, to many would be considered trying to draw attention away from the point being made.

Whether people like being called stubborn or not really is irrelevent to my claims of faith equaling stubborness.

If that is true what you said, then have you sought out other explanations as to what the cause of this stubbornness is?

Stubborness is a personality trait. I'm not sure what you are getting at. Not all people are stubborn either, I disagree with that claim. Sure, there are degrees of stubborness, but there are also very fickle people, people who change their opinions as often as they change their underwear (my ex-wife being an example).

I do believe that some are stubborn, yet others are not, just as I said before.

But you've also said that everyone is stubborn.

I have seen people of strong faith, those who are humble, willing to learn, to grow, etc, but everyone is stubborn, as I said earlier.

[jeremiah]

You gage a person’s faith by a factor that is shared by people who aren’t of a “faith persuasion� too. I have meet non-Christians who are stubborn just as much as a Christian is. How can you use a gage like stubbornness when it is shared by people the world over?

Yes, we call them stubborn. We don't try to claim they have faith do we? You want to see faith as being something special, however I don't see it as anything special.

2) You say that in a simple observation. How far has this observation gone? What type of people, background and such, have you observed to support this finding?

How far do you expect it to go?

3) You said that you have done numerous studies on faith. Does this recent observation to your studies override all that you learned?

No, as you can see by the two different ways I've identified of looking at faith.

I do admit it is a cynical view, but faith is about standing firm in your beliefs, despite evidence to the contrary. Stubborness is also standing firm despite evidence to the contrary. There really is no difference. It's just that one has negative connotations where the other has Godly connotations.

4) You said that you were one of the faithful. What made you decide to have a change of heart, so to speak? It isn’t the faith that is stubborn, but the person with the faith. I am sure in your studies you’ve come across this.

I agree with what you say there. It's the person with the faith that is stubborn. But the strength of their faith is determined by their stubborness IMO.

If you wish to read about my deconversion, here are some links:
Member spotlight
What made you give up?

5) In your studies I am sure, at least I would like to think so, that you came across another definition of faith. It is called trust. If you have, what were your thoughts on it?

Trust goes more along the lines with my ideas of faith as an action. If God told you say to go speak to a work colleague about Christ, then you trust that God will give you the right words to say. I have no problem with that concept of trust/faith. I guess you can also say that trust covers instances where you trust in God to provide. Once again, no problems. My issue with faith and stubborness is more to do with belief eg dogma, doctrine, translations of scripture. In hindsight just saying Faith is stubborness is too general. It's the way faith is applied.

Did you ever really believe or were you just told to believe and something “special happens�? I have seen that most of the time the Gospel is presented in that sad fashion. Saying that “everything will go well and God will bless you with so much� when they present the Gospel is not saying the whole truth of the Gospel.

I was taught to believe for things yes and there were times I had absolute faith in those things and there were times when positive outcomes resulted. However I did not expect everything to go well. I did not expect that God would give me everything I asked for.

Oh it is very relevant. When you use generalizing statements you narrow down your arguments as well as your hearers, or people you are trying to convince. I am not saying you are on here trying to convince anyone, it just shows that you are willing to look at the fuller picture that people are not all the same as we’d like them to be, it makes things easier when we do, unfortunately, it isn’t all true, or a fact really.

I said:

I know people of faith don't like "faith" being compared to "stubborness" as it has negative connotations. But I think the comparison is very apt.

Looking at this now I did not say "I know ALL people of faith...". All I said was that "people of faith..." I can't actually see why you are nitpicking here. Whether it is all people or just some it hardly matters. The fact is there are people out there who don't like being referred to as stubborn. This was such a minor point, to nitpick at it, to many would be considered trying to draw attention away from the point being made.

Whether people like being called stubborn or not really is irrelevent to my claims of faith equaling stubborness.

If that is true what you said, then have you sought out other explanations as to what the cause of this stubbornness is?

Stubborness is a personality trait. I'm not sure what you are getting at. Not all people are stubborn either, I disagree with that claim. Sure, there are degrees of stubborness, but there are also very fickle people, people who change their opinions as often as they change their underwear (my ex-wife being an example).

I do believe that some are stubborn, yet others are not, just as I said before.

But you've also said that everyone is stubborn.

I have seen people of strong faith, those who are humble, willing to learn, to grow, etc, but everyone is stubborn, as I said earlier.

[jeremiah]

oh hell no, I just spent 40 minutes replying and lost it all and ended up just reposting this, shoot. Sighs, alright, here I go again, this time replying in a different program and then copy and paste.

[jeremiah]

Alright, since the computer got wild on me last night, I am going to go straight to a few points, in short, summing up all I said last night because well, I can’t remember all I wrote out last night. What I am going to do is bring everything down and not repeat things we’ve been talking about.

1) Thank you for correcting me, but I am sure you know what I meant. But that still doesn’t prove the statement that you made, which you mentioned something about: “In hindsight just saying Faith is stubbornness is too general. It's the way faith is applied.�

2) I am sorry that you had those experiences with Christians. Unfortunately there are plenty of those around here in America as well, you can have some if you want, we have way too many. The problem with people standing up and giving a “prophecy� and it not coming true is that they are doing that and giving false prophecies and they will have to answer to God for it. Unfortunately they are still looked at as prophets. But a person shouldn’t base their faith off experiences, which is becoming more and more prevalent here in America.

Let me tell you a bit about me, so we are on common ground and know where the other person is coming from. I accepted Christ at the age or 12 or 13. I was never as active in a church as much as you but I did and still do, lots of studying and research to find out where my faith came from and what happened to it. I started this when I began looking around at the way Christianity was being talked about and how lots of things didn’t line up with what I had studied in Scripture and what the churches proclaimed: things such as faith and works, unity, understanding of what the life and death of Christ is meant in and to the believer. Those are just a few things. These might not be of concern for some but they were for me. As I said, those are just a few. I was part of Baptists churches as well as going to a Pentecostal church in my younger years. I to have heard of these so called prophets and “spiritual warfare� happening a lot in those churches and even the concept of it is skewed. But we won’t go into all of that here. I have even tried to talk to people about certain things that they hold to but when I do question it they get offended, but don’t we all some times? I know I have. But having our beliefs challenged is a way for our faith, meaning your first example, can be strengthened.

3) So you are using faith as a general term, but mainly referring to Christianity in this thread, as a set of doctrines that a person believes. The stubbornness which a person has about those beliefs has an affect on how that person is perceived as well as that set of beliefs. I have seen plenty of those people around and stop going to church a few times because of that, I am not going to one right now. I agree with you on this. You said that, “In hindsight just saying Faith is stubbornness is too general. It's the way faith is applied.� Do you mean the word faith and its term meaning a set of doctrines and beliefs? Or a person’s reaction as to how strongly they choose to believe in that set of doctrines?

Alright, that’s it. Have at it.