Fundamental christianity = Paulianity.

[bernee51]

Is the fundamentalist a follower of Paul.

Paul's three characteristic doctrines -- original sin, divine atonement for original sin, and the need of "grace" -- which are not in the Gospels, are the foundations of fundamental 'christianity'.

Is there a a single word in the Gospel - the so-called historical record of Jesus and his ministry - about redemption by atonement which is 'fundamental'? It is Paul, not Jesus or the gospel writers, who invented the doctrine of the atonement.

The things which even the Gospel writers, at the end of the first century, never put in the mouth of Jesus -- the things which are the real bases of Christianity, since they explain Christ and the incarnation -- are precisely the two main themes of Paul - original sin and atonement.

Are self proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually Paulians?

[Flail]

If Jesus was God....if He said what needed to be said...taught what needed to be taught.....why Paul?....why do we give any more credence to his letters than to the teachings of Jerry Falwell or Billy Graham?....IMO, the counsel of Constantine 400 years after the fact, realized that without the church building doctrines of Paul,Christianity would not be as popular to the masses....and that with just the anti religious teachings of Jesus it could not flourish into the mindlessness of superstition that was neede to quell the masses.....so Paul found his way into the Bible...

[czollers]

why do we give any more credence to his letters than to the teachings of Jerry Falwell or Billy Graham?

if you're going to ask that, then why do we need to hear about moses? or david or solomon or abraham? why do the apostles or mary magdeline matter? they're all parts of the same story, paul included. when you step back from the bible & take it as a whole, there is a theme... the story of who god is, and thereby, who we are.

IMO, the counsel of Constantine 400 years after the fact, realized that without the church building doctrines of Paul,Christianity would not be as popular to the masses....and that with just the anti religious teachings of Jesus it could not flourish into the mindlessness of superstition that was neede to quell the masses.....so Paul found his way into the Bible...

wow. ok, well you need to read more paul. somehow, i fail to see how writing from prison cell to tell people to take joy in their suffering, or giving up his prestigious position to follow the teachings of a man put to death for those very teachings makes paul appealing to the masses.

i also don't see how you might call christianity mindless. i'll grant you there are mindless people who call themselves christians, but the biblical doctrines themselves are anything but mindless. the depth and complexity of the bible is as far as i have read, completely unmatched. as i said, all of it comes together to tell a common story about who god is. an amazing feat since it is thought to have dozens of authors spanning thousands of years, many of whom never heard of each other.

in light of the inquisition, the dark ages, the holocost, 9/11, and never ending battles in the middle east, i have no idea how you think christian principles quell the masses. john calvin would be pissed!

[Easyrider]

Is the fundamentalist a follower of Paul.

Paul's three characteristic doctrines -- original sin, divine atonement for original sin, and the need of "grace" -- which are not in the Gospels, are the foundations of fundamental 'christianity'.

Is there a a single word in the Gospel - the so-called historical record of Jesus and his ministry - about redemption by atonement which is 'fundamental'? It is Paul, not Jesus or the gospel writers, who invented the doctrine of the atonement.

The things which even the Gospel writers, at the end of the first century, never put in the mouth of Jesus -- the things which are the real bases of Christianity, since they explain Christ and the incarnation -- are precisely the two main themes of Paul - original sin and atonement.

Are self proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually Paulians?

I recommend you review the following:

Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?

Some critics of Christianity try and set Paul against Jesus. They will often claim that what Paul taught is not what Jesus said and that present-day Christianity is derived not from Jesus, but from Paul's teaching. This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts. It is easy to take various scriptures out of context and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. Nevertheless, we can confidently expect that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Granted, Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.

Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. In Acts 9 Luke records the events surrounding Paul's conversion. We see that Jesus himself called Paul and sent him to be an apostle. If Paul and Jesus are not in agreement, then why would Jesus call Paul to be his apostle? Jesus is God in flesh and would therefore know all things. Jesus would certainly have known what Paul would teach which, it seems, is one of the reasons Jesus called him.

In addition, we can quickly see by examining what Jesus said and finding parallels in what Paul said. Following is a brief alphabetical list comparing the words of Christ with the words of Paul. We can clearly see that they were indeed in agreement and that the critics who would set Paul against Christ don't know what they're talking about.

Alive in Christ

Jesus
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21).

Paul
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22).

Anxiety

Jesus
"For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25).

Paul
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6).

Atonement

Jesus
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)

Paul
"and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).

Deity of Jesus

Jesus
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Paul
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8.

Forgiveness

Jesus
"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).

Paul
"And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).

Jesus is the only way

Jesus
"Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).

Paul
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).

Justification by faith

Jesus
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.

Paul
"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

The Law

Jesus
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).

Paul
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).

"What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17).

Living the Law

Jesus
"You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18).

Paul
"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10)

Resurrection

Jesus
"The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23).

Paul
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4).

Rewards and Punishment

Jesus
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).

Paul
"who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).

Sinfulness of man

Jesus
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19).

Paul
"There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one,� (Rom. 3:11-12).

Tradition

Jesus
"And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3).

Paul
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8).

Works Righteousness denied

Jesus
"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).

Paul
"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).

http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_Paul.htm

[bernee51]

::sigh:: i suppose if you want to call me a "pauline" that doesn't bother me.

I take it then that you consider tyourself a 'true christian'(tm). BAsed on what I recall of some of your earlier posts there are those who post here who also make that claim who would dispute your right to that epithet.

if it is all the same to you though, i think i'll continue to follow jesus.

Do you believe in 'original sin'? Do you believe in the doctrine of atonement?

i believe they were working towards the same goal anyway,...

Jesus allegedly loved humanity (the least of my brethren etc) - Paul loathed the 'flesh' and anything to do with it.

...and generally speaking if a dude rises from the dead, i'm pretty much gonna go with him. =]

If a dude does...

This has been claimed by or of many. Why don't you 'go with' them?

[Flail]

Help with this someone...but from where does the claim that the segments included in the Bible written by Paul are somehow divinely inspired originate?....I can read where Jesus talks about scripture...but Paul had not yet written his letters at that time....I can see where Paul himself mentions this theory of divine inspiration but he was clearly not speaking of his own contemporaneous writings....which were not included in anything 'scriptural' until his letters happened to find their way into the Bible 400 years later....so why would anyone give Paul any more credence than any other preacher with an opinion?

[Confused]

Is the fundamentalist a follower of Paul.

Paul's three characteristic doctrines -- original sin, divine atonement for original sin, and the need of "grace" -- which are not in the Gospels, are the foundations of fundamental 'christianity'.

Is there a a single word in the Gospel - the so-called historical record of Jesus and his ministry - about redemption by atonement which is 'fundamental'? It is Paul, not Jesus or the gospel writers, who invented the doctrine of the atonement.

The things which even the Gospel writers, at the end of the first century, never put in the mouth of Jesus -- the things which are the real bases of Christianity, since they explain Christ and the incarnation -- are precisely the two main themes of Paul - original sin and atonement.

Are self proclaimed fundamentalist Christians actually Paulians?

Sorry for jumping in late here, but I have to ask, can anyone clarify exactly what Fundamental Christianity entails? It seems to me that if you equate original sin and atonement as the two main themes of Fundamental Christianity, then what exactly was the purpose of the sacrifice of Jesus? Was that not to overshadow the "original sin" so we are no longer held accountable for the sins of our ancestors? Does the new covenant not make us accountable only for our sins, not the sins of our father, mother, grandfather, etc.....

It seems illogical to give Christianity credence if the death of Christ didn't change anything in regards to the original sin concept. If we are still accountable for the sins of our forefathers, then we are born in sin and the blood of Christ was given for what? The chance for atonement? If such was the case, then were all those lives that died prior to the entrance of Christ, condemned because of their forefathers, despite how they devoted their lives to God, if their forefathers turned their backs to Him? If they needed the blood of Christ for a chance at atonement, then they never had a chance to begin with.

[Easyrider]

Help with this someone...but from where does the claim that the segments included in the Bible written by Paul are somehow divinely inspired originate?....

Saul of Tarsus, who upon his conversion became the apostle Paul, wrote at least 12 letters which have been included in the New Testament. Why should we accept this man's writing as being God's Word?

Paul claimed that he was "an apostle, not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father" (Galatians 1:1). He was an apostle, one who had seen the risen Christ. "Am I not an apostle?" he asks rhetorically. "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1). He was, therefore, in a position of authority in the early church.

The apostle also received a unique revelation from God. "The gospel which was preached by me ... is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through revelation of Jesus Christ," he says (Galatians 1:11, 12). This calling was given to the apostle at his birth: "It was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb ... to reveal His Son in me" (Galatians 1:15, 16).

This divine message which Paul received was transmitted correctly to both the churches and the individuals to whom he wrote. He tells Titus, "God, who cannot lie,... in His own seasons manifested His word in the message, wherewith I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior" (Titus 1:2, 3).

He went on to say, "For our exhortation does not come from error or impurity or by way of deceit; but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts" (1 Thessalonians 2:3, 4 NASB).

The revelation given to Paul was a yardstick by which to gauge other so-called revelations: "If any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). His message bore the stamp of divine authority: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment" 1 Corinthians 14:37).

In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he made his authority crystal clear: "And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe" 1 Thessalonians 2:13). "Thus, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but God" (1 Thessalonians 4:8 NASB).

The disciple Simon Peter confirmed the fact that Paul's writings were of divine authority: "And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:15, 16)

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/reaso ... efault.htm

Add to that,

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations...." 2 corinthians 12:7

[Zzyzx]

.

can anyone clarify exactly what Fundamental Christianity entails?

I use a definition supplied by Merriam Webster: a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching

[Confused]

.

can anyone clarify exactly what Fundamental Christianity entails?

I use a definition supplied by Merriam Webster: a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching

Well, then I have major issues with anyone claiming to follow a fundamental Christian path as it is impossible to do. If they think in such terms, they prove themselves hypocrites by merely possessing anything, including money. But then, that is my opinion and I am anything but secure in my beliefs.

[Ooberman]

so he has his vision of jesus, goes to persia for a few months/years and comes back very enlightened as to what the teachings of jesus meant.

According to Galatians 1 & 2 he does. Not according to Acts 19-27:

In Acts 9. This book says Paul has a meeting with the Lord who tells
him to go to Damascus and meet with someone called Ananias. Ananias,
obviously a disciple, then gives the holy spirit to Paul, cures his
blindness, and baptizes him. Verse 19 says that Paul was "several
days with the disciples who were in Damascus". In verse 23 many days
passed and Paul finally fled the city. He then goes straight to
Jerusalem to meet the other apostles and disciples and by verse 27 he
succeeds.

http://kanajlo.spaces.live.com/blog/cns ... !341.entry


It's one of the most glaring contradictions in the Bible, besides Jesus' lineage and the events at the resurrection.


Of course, there is a way out: Paul didn't write Acts, so maybe author of Luke just didn't know. But that would make the Gospel of Luke suspect.