Trinitarianism

[Williams]

Isn't trinitarianism a form of polytheism? How is the doctrine connected to Judaism and early Christianity? I just don't see evidence for it in scripture. Can anyone help? Maybe we can end up discussing it more in-depth in the debate forum.

[Cedar Tree]

I am not sure why you think Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until the fourth century. The Didache is believed to have been written around 70 A.D. and clearly names the three persons of the Trinity. It would be blasphemous to baptize in any name other than God's.

Yes, the Didache is fairly early, however, that does not mean they were considered the SAME godhead.

Christians only believe in ONE God.

That is what they say. However, the Didache does not say that 'The holy spirit' is god, nor does it say 'the son' is god. You have to assume that from later theology.

You are ignoring the obvious. Consider: The first Christians, who were Jews, clearly understood that God is One. They also understood the First Commandment that we are not to have any other gods before God. They would not have been baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they did not believe that God is a Trinity.

[Goat]

I am not sure why you think Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until the fourth century. The Didache is believed to have been written around 70 A.D. and clearly names the three persons of the Trinity. It would be blasphemous to baptize in any name other than God's.

Yes, the Didache is fairly early, however, that does not mean they were considered the SAME godhead.

Christians only believe in ONE God.

That is what they say. However, the Didache does not say that 'The holy spirit' is god, nor does it say 'the son' is god. You have to assume that from later theology.

You are ignoring the obvious. Consider: The first Christians, who were Jews, clearly understood that God is One. They also understood the First Commandment that we are not to have any other gods before God. They would not have been baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they did not believe that God is a Trinity.

Many of the early Christian sects that splintered from Judaism did not say that Jesus was God though. It was the Gentile converts that came up with that.

[Cedar Tree]

I am not sure why you think Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until the fourth century. The Didache is believed to have been written around 70 A.D. and clearly names the three persons of the Trinity. It would be blasphemous to baptize in any name other than God's.

Yes, the Didache is fairly early, however, that does not mean they were considered the SAME godhead.

Christians only believe in ONE God.

That is what they say. However, the Didache does not say that 'The holy spirit' is god, nor does it say 'the son' is god. You have to assume that from later theology.

You are ignoring the obvious. Consider: The first Christians, who were Jews, clearly understood that God is One. They also understood the First Commandment that we are not to have any other gods before God. They would not have been baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they did not believe that God is a Trinity.

Many of the early Christian sects that splintered from Judaism did not say that Jesus was God though. It was the Gentile converts that came up with that.

Your opinion doesn't agree with the historical record. What are you basing YOUR opinion on? Thomas, one of the Twelve (and a Jew) fell at Jesus's feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) If Jesus were not God, He would have corrected Thomas; He did not.

"Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." (John 8:58) His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself (see Ex. 3:14); which is why they were prepared to throw stones at him (see John 8:59).

Another significant title given to Jesus that the Jews understood only applied to God, such as the "First and the Last" / the "Alpha and the Omega" (Is. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12) (Rev. 1:8, 1:17, 2:8, 22:13).

"Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God." (John 5:18)



Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Aristides

"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


Tatian the Syrian

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

[Goat]

I am not sure why you think Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until the fourth century. The Didache is believed to have been written around 70 A.D. and clearly names the three persons of the Trinity. It would be blasphemous to baptize in any name other than God's.

Yes, the Didache is fairly early, however, that does not mean they were considered the SAME godhead.

Christians only believe in ONE God.

That is what they say. However, the Didache does not say that 'The holy spirit' is god, nor does it say 'the son' is god. You have to assume that from later theology.

You are ignoring the obvious. Consider: The first Christians, who were Jews, clearly understood that God is One. They also understood the First Commandment that we are not to have any other gods before God. They would not have been baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they did not believe that God is a Trinity.

Many of the early Christian sects that splintered from Judaism did not say that Jesus was God though. It was the Gentile converts that came up with that.

Your opinion doesn't agree with the historical record. What are you basing YOUR opinion on? Thomas, one of the Twelve (and a Jew) fell at Jesus's feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) If Jesus were not God, He would have corrected Thomas; He did not.

"Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." (John 8:58) His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself (see Ex. 3:14); which is why they were prepared to throw stones at him (see John 8:59).

Another significant title given to Jesus that the Jews understood only applied to God, such as the "First and the Last" / the "Alpha and the Omega" (Is. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12) (Rev. 1:8, 1:17, 2:8, 22:13).

"Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God." (John 5:18)



Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Aristides

"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


Tatian the Syrian

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

[Cedar Tree]

I am not sure why you think Christians didn't believe in the Trinity until the fourth century. The Didache is believed to have been written around 70 A.D. and clearly names the three persons of the Trinity. It would be blasphemous to baptize in any name other than God's.

Yes, the Didache is fairly early, however, that does not mean they were considered the SAME godhead.

Christians only believe in ONE God.

That is what they say. However, the Didache does not say that 'The holy spirit' is god, nor does it say 'the son' is god. You have to assume that from later theology.

You are ignoring the obvious. Consider: The first Christians, who were Jews, clearly understood that God is One. They also understood the First Commandment that we are not to have any other gods before God. They would not have been baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit if they did not believe that God is a Trinity.

Many of the early Christian sects that splintered from Judaism did not say that Jesus was God though. It was the Gentile converts that came up with that.

Your opinion doesn't agree with the historical record. What are you basing YOUR opinion on? Thomas, one of the Twelve (and a Jew) fell at Jesus's feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) If Jesus were not God, He would have corrected Thomas; He did not.

"Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." (John 8:58) His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself (see Ex. 3:14); which is why they were prepared to throw stones at him (see John 8:59).

Another significant title given to Jesus that the Jews understood only applied to God, such as the "First and the Last" / the "Alpha and the Omega" (Is. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12) (Rev. 1:8, 1:17, 2:8, 22:13).

"Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God." (John 5:18)



Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Aristides

"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


Tatian the Syrian

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis

"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

And why do you assume that "the opposition" was right? Do you think the mere fact that there was opposition negates what these early Christians were saying? Is it impossible for them to be right because there was "the opposition"?

[Goat]

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

And why do you assume that "the opposition" was right?[/quote]

I am not saying the opposition was either right or wrong, but merely pointing out that since there WAS opposition, the matter was not settled. It just so happens that most of the opposition to the divinity was either the Gnostics, who viewed Jesus as God's wisdom, or the sects that were closer aligned to Judaism, such as the Ebonites.

If you look at the Gospels through the assumptions of the Ebonites, it does not say Jesus was God, but, perhaps, the Wisdom of god..

[Cedar Tree]

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

And why do you assume that "the opposition" was right? Do you think the mere fact that there was opposition negates what these early Christians were saying? Is it impossible for them to be right because there was "the opposition"?

I am not saying the opposition was either right or wrong, but merely pointing out that since there WAS opposition, the matter was not settled. It just so happens that most of the opposition to the divinity was either the Gnostics, who viewed Jesus as God's wisdom, or the sects that were closer aligned to Judaism, such as the Ebonites.

If you look at the Gospels through the assumptions of the Ebonites, it does not say Jesus was God, but, perhaps, the Wisdom of god..

There was opposition from the very beginning -- to Jesus Himself, which is why He lost some disciples. Jesus chose Apostles, and it is to His Apostles that He gave authority (not to any opposition). In other words, what His Apostles and their successors said was final, WAS final -- the matter WAS settled, regardless of any opposition.


Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

1 Tim. 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."


Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

[Goat]

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

And why do you assume that "the opposition" was right? Do you think the mere fact that there was opposition negates what these early Christians were saying? Is it impossible for them to be right because there was "the opposition"?

I am not saying the opposition was either right or wrong, but merely pointing out that since there WAS opposition, the matter was not settled. It just so happens that most of the opposition to the divinity was either the Gnostics, who viewed Jesus as God's wisdom, or the sects that were closer aligned to Judaism, such as the Ebonites.

If you look at the Gospels through the assumptions of the Ebonites, it does not say Jesus was God, but, perhaps, the Wisdom of god..

There was opposition from the very beginning -- to Jesus Himself, which is why He lost some disciples. Jesus chose Apostles, and it is to His Apostles that He gave authority (not to any opposition). In other words, what His Apostles and their successors said was final, WAS final -- the matter WAS settled, regardless of any opposition.


Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

1 Tim. 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."


Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Do you realize that not one thing you quoted has anything to do with the trinity, and the history of it being accepted what so ever?. I do feel it is ironic you are quoting Iraeneus though, because he said

'…there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption ' , which is not a trinarian point of view, but a binitarian

[Cedar Tree]

Notice.. you are quoting from someone who is fighting that very concept. 'Against heresies'. The opposition lost. The faction of the person who wrote that won. If the concept that 'Jesus is God' was universal, there would not be the need to write 'against Heresies' against it.

And why do you assume that "the opposition" was right? Do you think the mere fact that there was opposition negates what these early Christians were saying? Is it impossible for them to be right because there was "the opposition"?

I am not saying the opposition was either right or wrong, but merely pointing out that since there WAS opposition, the matter was not settled. It just so happens that most of the opposition to the divinity was either the Gnostics, who viewed Jesus as God's wisdom, or the sects that were closer aligned to Judaism, such as the Ebonites.

If you look at the Gospels through the assumptions of the Ebonites, it does not say Jesus was God, but, perhaps, the Wisdom of god..

There was opposition from the very beginning -- to Jesus Himself, which is why He lost some disciples. Jesus chose Apostles, and it is to His Apostles that He gave authority (not to any opposition). In other words, what His Apostles and their successors said was final, WAS final -- the matter WAS settled, regardless of any opposition.


Matthew 16:18-19
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

1 Tim. 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."


Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).


Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Do you realize that not one thing you quoted has anything to do with the trinity, and the history of it being accepted what so ever?.

My point in quoting what I did was to illustrate that it is the Church which has teaching authority, and not the "opposition." 1 Tim. 3:15 illustrates that it is the Church who is the authority, the "pillar and ground of the truth." Matthew 16:18-19 illustrates the point I was making that Christ gave AUTHORITY to Peter and His apostles, the first members (and Jewish ones at that) of His Church. Matthew 18:15-18 illustrates that anyone who does not hear the Church ("those who do not hear the Church" = the "opposition"), "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Romans in 110 A.D. and Irenaeus's Against Heresies in 189 both illustrate early Christian understanding of Church authority. Heresies are what "the opposition" believed.

I do feel it is ironic you are quoting Iraeneus though, because he said

'…there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption ' , which is not a trinarian point of view, but a binitarian

Your quote is merely a portion of a preface of Book IV of Irenaeus's Against Heresies. The paragraph in itself from which you quoted does not set out to explain the Trinity; that is clearly not its purpose. (For your review I have quoted below that paragraph from the preface you quoted.)

"4. For as the serpent beguiled Eve, by promising her what he had not himself, 2 Peter 2:19. so also do these men, by pretending [to possess] superior knowledge, and [to be acquainted with] ineffable mysteries; and, by promising that admittance which they speak of as taking place within the Pleroma, plunge those that believe them into death, rendering them apostates from Him who made them. And at that time, indeed, the apostate angel, having effected the disobedience of mankind by means of the serpent, imagined that he escaped the notice of the Lord; wherefore God assigned him the form and name [of a serpent]. But now, since the last times are [come upon us], evil is spread abroad among men, which not only renders them apostates, but by many machinations does [the devil] raise up blasphemers against the Creator, namely, by means of all the heretics already mentioned. For all these, although they issue forth from diverse regions, and promulgate different [opinions], do nevertheless concur in the same blasphemous design, wounding [men] unto death, by teaching blasphemy against God our Maker and Supporter, and derogating from the salvation of man. Now man is a mixed organization of soul and flesh, who was formed after the likeness of God, and moulded by His hands, that is, by the Son and Holy Spirit, to whom also He said, Let Us make man. Genesis 1:26 This, then, is the aim of him who envies our life, to render men disbelievers in their own salvation, and blasphemous against God the Creator. For whatsoever all the heretics may have advanced with the utmost solemnity, they come to this at last, that they blaspheme the Creator, and disallow the salvation of God's workmanship, which the flesh truly is; on behalf of which I have proved, in a variety of ways, that the Son of God accomplished the whole dispensation [of mercy], and have shown that there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption."

However, the first paragraph of Book I, Chapter 10, of Against Heresies clearly defines the Trinity as the Father Almighty (Maker of heaven and earth and the sea and all things that are in them), Christ Jesus (the Son of God who became incarnate for our salvation), and the Holy Spirit (who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God...).

"1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, Ephesians 1:10 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess Philippians 2:10-11 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, Ephesians 6:12 and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm

[EduChris]

Isn't trinitarianism a form of polytheism? How is the doctrine connected to Judaism and early Christianity? I just don't see evidence for it in scripture. Can anyone help? Maybe we can end up discussing it more in-depth in the debate forum...

The Christian understanding of the "Triune God," in comparison to any other religion, best encapsulates the "necessary preconditions for anything at all to exist."

All we have to do is make one simple assumption, the assumption that something exists.

From there, I believe I have shown on this thread that the necessary conditions of: 1) existence, 2) differentiation, and 3) relationality must apply for all conceivable universes.

Non-contingent Existence, non-contingent Differentiation, and non-contingent Relationality. Sounds very much like the Christian concept of "Trinity."