Happy Anniversary?

[myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

[bjs]

Mrs. Yates was suffering from postpartum psychosis, a well-documented mental disorder that causes, “depression, severe confusion, loss of inhibition, paranoia, hallucinations and delusions.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

She was under the care of psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, though his instruction to her family that she never be left without adult supervision was ignored.

Connecting an action that comes from psychosis to her religious faith is misleading, bordering on disingenuous.

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

I do not see that belief listed as something caused by "postpartum psychosis."

Gee, why did she believe that if her children died within their "innocent years" they would go to heaven for all eternity?

Which mental illness causes that belief?

Belief had nothing to do with the deaths. Psychosis did. To blame religious faith, or any other worldview, for the acts of someone with postpartum psychosis is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the condition.

[myth-one.com]

Mrs. Yates was suffering from postpartum psychosis, a well-documented mental disorder that causes, “depression, severe confusion, loss of inhibition, paranoia, hallucinations and delusions.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

She was under the care of psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, though his instruction to her family that she never be left without adult supervision was ignored.

Connecting an action that comes from psychosis to her religious faith is misleading, bordering on disingenuous.

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

I do not see that belief listed as something caused by "postpartum psychosis."

Gee, why did she believe that if her children died within their "innocent years" they would go to heaven for all eternity?

Which mental illness causes that belief?

Belief had nothing to do with the deaths.

Except that it was the reason she murdered her children:

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

How does psychosis cause one to believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for all eternity?

Do atheist women suffering from postpartum depression believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for eternity?

If not, then their psychosis does not cause that belief.

If psychosis did not cause that false belief, then what did?

I say it was her religion.

That is exactly what I was taught as a Southern Baptist!

[ttruscott]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

She was wrong in her craziness anddepression. IF an early death was an acceptable way to save people from being judged then GOD who desires all men to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, would kill us all while still 'innocent' and hell would be empty.

Some modern churches have it wrong to avoid the hostility of the secular world to the idea that infants of every age die for sin as only sinners are born and die, due to an inadequate theology. Their desire to entice converts even with a false pretence is a sign of their being built on the sand.

[myth-one.com]

Today, June 20th 2009, is the eighth anniversary of the sacrifice Andrea Yates made for her children. Had she not murdered them, Noah would be 15 years old, John would be 13, Paul 11, Luke 10, and Mary would be 8. Instead, they were murdered by their mother so they would go immediately to live with God eternally in the paradise of heaven, thus avoiding the possibility of eternal torment in hellfire.

Is this a victory for Christianity?

She was wrong in her craziness and depression.

No, she was ill in her craziness and depression.

IF an early death was an acceptable way to save people from being judged . . .

This has historically been taught by virtually every Christian church in the world!

Some modern churches have it wrong to avoid the hostility of the secular world to the idea that infants of every age die for sin as only sinners are born and die, due to an inadequate theology.

Not sure what this means.

Their desire to entice converts even with a false pretence is a sign of their being built on the sand.

Whatever they do -- they should be held accountable for their teachings.

[bjs]

Mrs. Yates was suffering from postpartum psychosis, a well-documented mental disorder that causes, “depression, severe confusion, loss of inhibition, paranoia, hallucinations and delusions.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

She was under the care of psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, though his instruction to her family that she never be left without adult supervision was ignored.

Connecting an action that comes from psychosis to her religious faith is misleading, bordering on disingenuous.

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

I do not see that belief listed as something caused by "postpartum psychosis."

Gee, why did she believe that if her children died within their "innocent years" they would go to heaven for all eternity?

Which mental illness causes that belief?

Belief had nothing to do with the deaths.

Except that it was the reason she murdered her children:

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

How does psychosis cause one to believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for all eternity?

If not, then their psychosis does not cause that belief.

If psychosis did not cause that false belief, then what did?

I say it was her religion.

That is exactly what I was taught as a Southern Baptist!

If this is what Southern Baptist actually taught, even if only 1% of them accepted the teaching, then thousands of parents would have murdered their children.

In reality we have this single case of a woman suffering from psychosis who committed this crime.

The evidence suggests that it was the psychosis, not the religion, which led to this act.

Do atheist women suffering from postpartum depression believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for eternity?

Yes, an atheist could absolutely do this. Anyone who does not understand why does not understand what the word “psychosis� means.

[myth-one.com]

Mrs. Yates was suffering from postpartum psychosis, a well-documented mental disorder that causes, “depression, severe confusion, loss of inhibition, paranoia, hallucinations and delusions.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

She was under the care of psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, though his instruction to her family that she never be left without adult supervision was ignored.

Connecting an action that comes from psychosis to her religious faith is misleading, bordering on disingenuous.

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

I do not see that belief listed as something caused by "postpartum psychosis."

Gee, why did she believe that if her children died within their "innocent years" they would go to heaven for all eternity?

Which mental illness causes that belief?

Belief had nothing to do with the deaths.

Except that it was the reason she murdered her children:

Three weeks after the drownings Andrea told psychiatrist Philip Resnick she was failing as a mother and believed she had to kill the children to keep them from going to hell. "These were their innocent years. God would take them up."

How does psychosis cause one to believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for all eternity?

If not, then their psychosis does not cause that belief.

If psychosis did not cause that false belief, then what did?

I say it was her religion.

That is exactly what I was taught as a Southern Baptist!

If this is what Southern Baptist actually taught, even if only 1% of them accepted the teaching, then thousands of parents would have murdered their children.

In reality we have this single case of a woman suffering from psychosis who committed this crime.

The evidence suggests that it was the psychosis, not the religion, which led to this act.

Do atheist women suffering from postpartum depression believe that children who die in their innocent years go to heaven for eternity?

Yes, an atheist could absolutely do this. Anyone who does not understand why does not understand what the word “psychosis� means.

Antonio and Erik Lopez:

Magdalena Lopez murdered her two sons on July 19, 2005 in Dyer, Indiana. Police reported that she beat her two sons to death with a ten-pound dumbbell because she thought they'd be better off in heaven. Both deaths were caused by massive skull fractures. Mrs. Lopez was quoted as saying, "They're in a much better place now."

Margaret Schlosser:

Suffering from postpartum depression, Dena Schlosser severed both of her daughter's arms in Plano, Texas on November 23, 2004; in a bout of religious fervor. Ten month old Margaret did not survive.




Joshua Keith Laney
8
May 10, 2003
Suffering from postpartum depression, an
Luke Allen Laney
6
May 10, 2003
intensely devout Deanna Laney murdered



two of her sons and severely injured a third



near Tyler, Texas on May 10, 2003. She



was found not guilty by reason of insanity,



and is now (2006) in the state mental



facility at Rusk, Texas.




Samantha Mae Martin
6
Mar 29, 2002
Sherry Marie Delker murdered her daughter



Samantha on March 29, 2002 in



Austintown, Ohio. Mrs. Delker admitted



to running her daughter down with her car



outside a church. Police said she wanted



to send her daughter to a "better place."



Sherry Delker is now serving twenty



years to life in prison.




Noah Yates
7
June 20, 2001
A severely depressed Andrea Pia Yates
John Yates
5
June 20, 2001
drowned her five children Noah, John,
Paul Yates
3
June 20, 2001
Paul, Luke, and Mary in the bathtub of
Luke Yates
2
June 20, 2001
her Clearlake area home in Houston,
Mary Yates
6mo
June 20, 2001
Texas, on June 20, 2001. Although Mrs.



Yates was found guilty on two counts



of capital murder, she now (February 2006)



awaits a second trial in Houston. Her



first conviction being overturned due



to erroneous testimony by psychiatrist



Dr. Park Dietz.




Nicholas Lemak
7
Mar 4, 1999
Marilyn Lemak murdered her three children
Emily Lemak
6
Mar 4, 1999
on March 4, 1999 in their Naperville,
Thomas Lemak
3
Mar 4, 1999
Illinois home. Mrs. Lemak feed the children



peanut butter laced with antidepressants,



laid them down to sleep, then smothered



them with her hands. She wanted to kill



the children and herself so they could



be reunited in a happier place. "She



perceived herself as a loving mother



tenderly taking her children into another



existence," stated psychiatrist Philip



Resnick.




Kouaeai Hang
11
Sept 3, 1998
On September 3, 1998, Khoua Her
Samson Hang
9
Sept 3, 1998
strangled her six children in St. Paul,
Nali Hang
8
Sept 3, 1998
Minnesota. She then hanged herself in a
Tang Lung Hang
7
Sept 3, 1998
failed suicide attempt. Khoua had become a
Aee Hang
6
Sept 3, 1998
Christian after immigrating to the United
Tung Hang
5
Sept 3, 1998
States, and thought she would be reunited




with the children in the afterlife.



Prosecuter Chris Wilton stated, "I know



that she did this for religious reasons."



Khoua Her was sentenced to fifty years



in prison.




Justin Thomas Riggs
5
Nov 4, 1997
Christina Marie Riggs smothered her two
Shelby Alexis Riggs
2
Nov 4, 1997
children Justin and Shelby with a pillow in



Sherwood, Arkansas. She then attempted



suicide by swallowing twenty-eight Elavil



tablets and injecting enough potassium



chloride to kill five people. Incredibly,



she survived. Although the motivation for



this crime appears to be the unhappy



circumstances of Mrs. Riggs life, there is



evidence that her religious beliefs as a



minimum made the crime easier to commit.



She requested and received the death



penalty, then fought for her right to



die. From death row, she told an



interviewer, "I'll be with my children and



with God. I'll be where there's no more



pain. Maybe I'll find some peace." She



was executed by lethal injection outside



Pine Bluff, Arkansas, on May 3rd of 2000.



In her last statement she proclaimed, "Now



I can be with my babies, as I always



intended."




Christina Gindorf
23mo
Mar 28, 1985
Suffering from postpartum depression and
Jason Gindorf
3mo
Mar 28, 1985
feeling totally alone and helpless in the



world, Debra Lynn Gindorf fed her twenty-



three month old daughter Christina and three



month old son Jason lethal doses of crushed



sleeping pills in a cup of juice. She then



unsuccessfully attempted suicide. She



believed she and her babies would be



reunited in heaven, where they would be



safe and happy together for eternity.

[myth-one.com]

If this is what Southern Baptist actually taught, even if only 1% of them accepted the teaching, then thousands of parents would have murdered their children.

Yes, thousands is a good number.

In reality we have this single case of a woman suffering from psychosis who committed this crime.

In the week following the murders of the Yates children, Newsweek Magazine reported:

"About 200 children are killed by their mothers every year according to Justice statistics. Sometimes moms blame the devil. Or they think they are saving their children from a hellish life by sending them to heaven."

Christians reinforce this false belief after each occurrence by affirming that the murdered children are indeed in heaven with God for eternity!

Thus they provide positive feedback to these and possible future murderers.

The evidence suggests that it was the psychosis, not the religion, which led to this act.

Why do psychotic murderers even feel a need to justify their murders?

Their terror of imagining that their children might spend eternity in the fires of hell may have put them over the edge into their psychosis!

Mrs. Yates stated to the police that she wanted to be punished for the crime and was prepared to go to hell for what she had done.

Jesus' death does not approach the sacrifice Andrea Pia Yates was prepared to make for her children! She was prepared to be executed by the state of Texas, then spend eternity in the fires of hell!

So that a billion trillion years from now, she will still be burning alive, while her children are safe in heaven! In comparison, the six hour crucifixion of Jesus Christ was trivial.

If anyone fits the definition of a misguided martyr, she does!

[Bust Nak]

I have nothing to add for your other point but I found this bit questionable.

If this is what Southern Baptist actually taught, even if only 1% of them accepted the teaching, then thousands of parents would have murdered their children.

That's quite the jump from accepting that "children killed in their innocent years would automatically be taken up by God" to going ahead with murdering their children. There is a poster on this forum who has affirmed that children are guaranteed a place in heaven, and still wouldn't kill children because he also accept the teaching that "thou shalt not kill/murder."

[myth-one.com]

I have nothing to add for your other point but I found this bit questionable.

If this is what Southern Baptist actually taught, even if only 1% of them accepted the teaching, then thousands of parents would have murdered their children.

That's quite the jump from accepting that "children killed in their innocent years would automatically be taken up by God" to going ahead with murdering their children. There is a poster on this forum who has affirmed that children are guaranteed a place in heaven, and still wouldn't kill children because he also accept the teaching that "thou shalt not kill/murder."

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Then he or she is willing to accept the high probability that their children will spend eternity burning in the fires of hell.

Andrea Yates no longer suffers from such fears and worries. "Great" evangelists have proclaimed that she succeeded in sending her five children to Heaven for all eternity.

. . . God is love. (I John 4:8)

Ask that poster to defend the statement that "God is Love" with the concept of everlasting torture in hellfire.

Anyone who teaches this false theology is part of the problem.

[Bust Nak]

Then he or she is willing to accept the high probability that their children will spend eternity burning in the fires of hell...

Ask that poster to defend the statement that "God is Love" with the concept of everlasting torture in hellfire.

I asked a similar question, the answer ran along the lines of, from God's perspective, it's not about saving the maximum number of children, God has a better way of doing things. There is a morally sufficient reason for this, that we can't see what this reason is, why we are us and God is God.

If you are interested in seeing the conversation for yourself, I can PM you the link.