Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

[Zzyzx]

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Some maintain that the reason for worshiping gods is to gain favor of, or favorable treatment from, those real or imaginary “gods� (in this life or in a proposed “afterlife�).

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

I can't imagine a scenario where the worshiper didn't derive some benefit, and think all such worship is ultimately selfish, if not nefariously so. Even in restricting one's actions, or even abusing oneself, there is an implied benefit of gaining favor.

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

Psychological comfort? IMO there is a potential benefit to worship where the "difficult questions" or notions are "handed off to God".

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

I wouldn't say it's the sole reason, but it surely comes into play.

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

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Some maintain that the reason for worshiping gods is to gain favor of, or favorable treatment from, those real or imaginary “gods� (in this life or in a proposed “afterlife�).

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

History is rife with examples of prayer conducted under the pretense of gain. The elevation of the simple monk from a denier of the world and a recluse to the most powerful entity in Middle Age Europe was paved with absorbitant amounts of money paid to these individuals by the rich and the violent because it was believed that the destitute lives the monks lead gave them more sway with god. In other words, people believed the prayer line of the monks was much more powerful than theirs, thus the nobility of Europe paid the monks to do the praying for them, with individuals sometimes building up to almost a dozen monastaries to house all the monks needed to pray for their soul. I believe it was something like 120 days of penance per individual killed as dictated by the pope (at least before the crusades, when the penance became the killing), so you can see why these people found it necessary to employ dozens of 'pure' monks to pray for them as they were far too busy murdering and pillaging to do it themselves.

Whether it's out of the desire for salvation, the desire for material gain or the blessing of one army or nation over another, prayer has been largely motivated by self-interest now and throughout history.

Irrational behavior and selfish motivation going hand-in-hand? No way!

[micatala]

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Some maintain that the reason for worshiping gods is to gain favor of, or favorable treatment from, those real or imaginary “gods� (in this life or in a proposed “afterlife�).

This is one reason some of us worship our notion of God. I don't think it is the only one, or even the most important or relevant one.

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

I think we should distinguish between "reward" and "benefit."

A reward would be bestoyed by the God.

A benefit could occur intrinsically. If my religious practice has the effect of making me happier or more productive or engenders a more positive attitude or leads to more positive relationships with others, then I have acheived a benefit even if there is no direct action by God involved.

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

See above.

I will point out that many people interpret Jesus teachings to relate less to an eternal reward than "having life and having it abundantly" in the here and now. Having the "kingdom of God" within you is not only a promise of a future reward.

In addition, there is the potential benefit of feeling supported by others engaged in similar worship. There is finding that the particular teachings of the religion help one to live a better life. There is a sense, admittedly subjective, that worship can help one feel a deeper connection to the universe and one's fellow inhabitants of the universe.

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

Certainly not the only one.



Also, this same question could be posed for a lot of other activities.

Is selfishness the motivation for . . .

getting married
having children
joining a political party
joining a quilting club
being altruistic
participating in this forum

??

[cnorman18]

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Some maintain that the reason for worshiping gods is to gain favor of, or favorable treatment from, those real or imaginary “gods� (in this life or in a proposed “afterlife�).

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

Well, one might ask if selfishness of one kind or another is, at bottom, everyone's motivation for everything. We can't, after all, act on anyone's thoughts but our own; even the guy who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is concerned about what he thinks of himself and what his buddies think of him. He decides that it's worth more to him to save his friends than to save himself or to die with them. If one defines "selfishness" in the usual manner, though, that act is pretty clearly as unselfish as it gets.

I would agree that most religions appeal to selfishness with their promises of life after death. They are promoted in that manner, and it's no wonder that many if not most believers consider that their primary reason for belief.

Judaism - and everyone knew this was coming - makes no such promises. The point of Jewish belief, and in fact the point of being human, is tikkun olam, the repair of the world; making THIS world a better place for ALL people, not just Jews.

The only "benefit" of Jewish belief and practice would be to become a better person. That may be clearer to me, as a convert, than it is to most Jews. It was emphasized to me at the very beginning of the conversion process: there is no reward or benefit to becoming a Jew. You don't get into Heaven (in Judaism, anybody can, of any belief or none); and you certainly don't get rewarded in this life. If history is any measure, one is more likely to suffer for being Jewish than to be "rewarded" for it.

The point of religion ought to be to do one's best to be the best person one can be, and to do the best one can to improve the world in any way one can. If one believes in a just God, one can trust Him to decide one's eternal fate, if any, when the time comes. It's an egoistic and profoundly selfish attitude to make that the primary reason and result of being "religious."

I would also note that some religions appeal to selfishness in a more subtle way than just promising the joys of Heaven; they also promise justified self-righteousness and superiority, the "pleasure" of putting oneself above others and looking down on them. Jews are not, alas, immune to that appeal, though it has nothing to do with Heaven; but we do teach humility as an ideal, and take that seriously. As we have seen on this forum, "humility" as a religious value is highly valued among some Christians, and among others it has apparently been discarded in favor of pontification.

But, to be fair, some atheists do the same. Perhaps their motivation for promoting atheism is selfish and egotistical too - we have seen definite claims of superiority from that side as well, though more often intellectual than moral.

As with most things, a more accurate indicator of one's character and morality can be found in how one treats others than in what one professes to believe; and character and morality trump belief in every way that I can think of. Who cares what you BELIEVE? What you DO is more important.

[Vanguard]

My contribution is simply one of opinion on the matter. Though I may be willing to entertain the reasoning behind why such an opinion is held I am not interested in providing any substantiation beyond what a critical-minded exploration can provide.

Some maintain that the reason for worshiping gods is to gain favor of, or favorable treatment from, those real or imaginary “gods� (in this life or in a proposed “afterlife�).

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

I don't believe it has to be for everyone though I can also fathom many scenarios that would involve a good degree of selfishness. Having said that, I believe supernaturalists (SPs) can be motivated to cultivate a relationship through worship with their creator that is not based ultimately for selfish reasons. As an example, a Christian might participate in ritual as they believe this - among many other ways - helps them to focus on how they might be of service toward their fellowman - a focus that does not include "what might be in it" for them.

[ChaosBorders]

Why would anyone worship a “god� if they did not think that there would be some “reward� or benefit in doing so?

That depends on how you define some things. Firstly, worship can mean 'reverent honor and homage paid' or it can mean 'adoring reverence or regard'. The first definition implies more of an act, whereas the second can apply more to a state of mind.

In both cases, a person may worship the object of their beliefs simply because they earnestly believe said being deserves to be worshiped. In practice, I suspect this applies more often to the second form of worship, with the act of worshiping historically leaning more towards gaining favor of some kind.

Unless there is a promise (unverified) of “paradise� or “heaven� as a reward, why bother with the dogma and ritual of worship?

This might be something cnorman could verify, but if I recall my religious history textbook correctly, ancient Jews didn't worship God to gain future favor so much as to show gratitude for what they viewed as things God had already given them. Likewise, many people today (myself included) worship as an expression of gratitude, not because we think we're going to get anything out of it in the future.

Question for debate: Is selfishness the motivation for worshiping gods?

It certainly can be a reason. But it definitely is not the only (and hopefully not even the main) reason for doing so.

[cnorman18]

This might be something cnorman could verify, but if I recall my religious history textbook correctly, ancient Jews didn't worship God to gain future favor so much as to show gratitude for what they viewed as things God had already given them. Likewise, many people today (myself included) worship as an expression of gratitude, not because we think we're going to get anything out of it in the future.

I think that's accurate. Throughout the Torah, one sees the expression, "I am the LORD thy God, who hast delivered ye from the land of Egypt and from the house of slavery." God may not have said that, but the writers, editors and redactors did, and the obvious appeal there is to gratitude.

Even today, that is largely the content of Jewish communal prayer. The daily "blessings" which are recited in the morning service are essentially a list of things for which God is thanked. The most widely observed ritual in Judaism (which takes place in the home, not in the synagogue) remains the Passover seder, which is a commemoration of the Exodus and the passing on of the tradition of what God did for us in the past. Most Jewish holidays are about gratitude for past blessings; Purim is about our survival of persecution, not only in King Ahasuerus's day, but the many since. Succot is about gratitude for the harvest and for our being sustained in the Wilderness. Shavuos is about gratitude for the giving of the Torah; and so on.

The only Jewish holidays I can think of that involve asking for something would be the High Holy Days from Rosh HaShana to Yom Kippur, which are about asking for forgiveness - but, and few non-Jews know this, it is as much about asking forgiveness from other humans as it is from God. In Jewish belief, if one wrongs another person, God Himself cannot forgive that wrong; only the person to whom it was done has that right. So during the Days of Awe, as they are also called, we ask forgiveness from the people around us for what we have done, or may have done, that injured them.

As usual, Judaism does not talk much about what God will do for us, but about what we can do for each other. We are taught not to ask for further blessings from God, but to work to BE blessings ourselves.

[Zzyzx]

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Chaosborders and Cnorman,

I thoroughly enjoy exchanging ideas with “Thinking Theists� (as opposed to those who mindlessly parrot dogma or quote “scripture�).

If one’s “worship of gods� (whatever that might mean) is a reflection of “gratitude� or “giving thanks for gifts received� (or similar thought), WHAT assurance is there that any “god� GAVE or provided anything? How does one determine that a “god� has provided positive (or negative) influence on human lives?

[JoeyKnothead]

I think that's accurate. Throughout the Torah, one sees the expression, "I am the LORD thy God, who hast delivered ye from the land of Egypt and from the house of slavery." God may not have said that, but the writers, editors and redactors did, and the obvious appeal there is to gratitude.

Even today, that is largely the content of Jewish communal prayer. The daily "blessings" which are recited in the morning service are essentially a list of things for which God is thanked. The most widely observed ritual in Judaism (which takes place in the home, not in the synagogue) remains the Passover seder, which is a commemoration of the Exodus and the passing on of the tradition of what God did for us in the past. Most Jewish holidays are about gratitude for past blessings; Purim is about our survival of persecution, not only in King Ahasuerus's day, but the many since. Succot is about gratitude for the harvest and for our being sustained in the Wilderness. Shavuos is about gratitude for the giving of the Torah; and so on.

The only Jewish holidays I can think of that involve asking for something would be the High Holy Days from Rosh HaShana to Yom Kippur, which are about asking for forgiveness - but, and few non-Jews know this, it is as much about asking forgiveness from other humans as it is from God. In Jewish belief, if one wrongs another person, God Himself cannot forgive that wrong; only the person to whom it was done has that right. So during the Days of Awe, as they are also called, we ask forgiveness from the people around us for what we have done, or may have done, that injured them.

As usual, Judaism does not talk much about what God will do for us, but about what we can do for each other. We are taught not to ask for further blessings from God, but to work to BE blessings ourselves.

That's got Post of the Year written all over it. Not only does it directly address the OP, but surely an ideal of thankfulness for our 'blessings' and contrition for our wrongs is one we can all get behind.