Arguing with or Praising God

[JoeyKnothead]

I get a sense from the Jewish members that there's a lot of arguing with God. This is a bit contradictory to my Christian based or biased understanding of praising God at every opportunity, and I was just wondering if some would comment on this.

I know it's been touched on before, but I'm thinking folks who get the same sense I do may benefit from coming across a topic specifically for the subject.

[Jrosemary]

I get a sense from the Jewish members that there's a lot of arguing with God. This is a bit contradictory to my Christian based or biased understanding of praising God at every opportunity, and I was just wondering if some would comment on this.

I know it's been touched on before, but I'm thinking folks who get the same sense I do may benefit from coming across a topic specifically for the subject.

I'm biased on this question--I find the Jewish custom of arguing with God, arguing with each other, and arguing with the tradition to be one of the most compelling aspects of Judaism.

Don't mistake me--our liturgy is full of praise for God. Most Christians would be perfectly comfortable with the praises we utter in our services. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop the occassional argument from breaking out.

One time at Torah study in my synagogue, our rabbi read a controversial passage from the Torah and then asked, "But why would God do such a thing?"

One guy shrugged and said, "Because He's a bastard."

We all laughed and started a discussion about whether or not God was the bad guy in that story. No one was shocked, horrified or offended.

(And this guy who called God a bastard--he's a devout man, in his own fashion. I consider him a great role model as someone who takes his religion, problems and all, seriously.)

There are biblical precedents for arguing with God. Whether these stories are myth or history or mytho-history isn't important for this discussion. Take them anyway you want:

Abraham argues with God on behalf of the city of Sodom. He calls upon God to live up to His own moral code: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth Himself be just?" (See Genesis 18:25; it's part of a Torah portion or parsha known to Jews as Va-Yera, which goes from Genesis 18:1 to Genesis 22:24.)

[Abraham is courageous here--he's defending, without hesitation, a city of strangers against God's wrath. And yet, later, when God orders Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, Abraham has nothing to say. What happened? How could Abraham stand up for strangers and not utter a word of protest for the life of his own son? This is a question we often discuss over the High Holy Days, since we read the Abraham-Isaac story during Rosh HaShanah services.]

Much later, Moses will argue with God. The Israelites are terrified of the task ahead of them--entering and conquering the land beyond the Jordan River. They don't trust God to aid them. In fact, they'd rather crawl back on their hands and knees to Pharaoh.

God is so furious that he wants to destroy the whole people and start over with Moses and his family. But Moses talks God down. In fact, Moses shames God into relenting. What will the Egyptions think of You, Moses asks, if they hear that You led this people out into the wilderness merely to slaughter them? (See Numbers 14:11; the whole story is part of the parsha known as Shelach Lecha, which goes from Numbers 13:1 to Numbers 15:41.)

We also have the story of the Daughters of Zelophehad: young women who recognized an unfair aspect of God's law, petitioned against it--and won. But since we discussed that at length on another thread, I won't go into detail here.

But the story that gives the people Israel their name--a name that means 'God-wrestler'--is back in Genesis. It concerns Abraham's grandson, Jacob.

Jacob was not the nicest guy ever born. He tricked his older brother Esau (well, older by a few seconds--they were twins) into giving Jacob his birthright as the older son.

Esau is not the brightest candle in the menorah. He was probably not a bad guy, if you read the Torah straight, although later Jewish tradition wasn't kind to him. At any event, it's hard to blame him for wanting some revenge against his brother Jacob.

Jacob has been living in exile for a long while, but he finally returns home, ready to confront Esau. After making preparations, he has a strange vision/encounter:

That same night [Jacob] arose, and taking his two wives, his two maidservants, and his eleven children, he crossed the ford of the Jabbok. After taking them across the stream, he sent across all his possessions. Jacob was left alone.

And a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he wrenched Jacob's hip at its socket, so that the socket of his hip was strained as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let go of me, for dawn is breaking."

But he answered, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me."

Said the other, "What is your name?"

He replied, "Jacob."

Said he, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have wrestled with God and men and have prevailed."

Jacob asked, "Pray tell me your name."

But he said, "You must not ask my name!" And he took leave of him there.

So Jacob named the place Peniel, meaning "I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been preserved." (Genesis 32: 23-31)

As I mentioned above, Israel, or Yisra-El means God wrestler. In at least one sense, Jacob's wrestling match was with God. Jews are traditionally uncomfortable with viewing God anthropomorphically, and so Jewish tradition sees the mysterious man as an agent of God--some kind of angel.

In another sense, Jacob was wrestling with himself, or perhaps, symbolically, with the brother he had wronged. And so this mysterious being could say "you have wrestled with both God and men."

There's loads of commentary on this story and since the name of the people Israel comes from it, it's hard to underestimate its importance in Judaism. I think the concept of wrestling with God is equally important in the Jewish tradition.

These stories about Abraham arguing with God, Jacob's wrestling match, or Moses shaming God into not killing off the whole people . . . they're not distant events to religious Jews. We enter the myth and make it our own. Our ancestor Abraham argued with God. Our ancestor Jacob wrestled with this mysterious being. Our rabbi Moses talked God down from His anger.

And God delivered us from Egypt. We were there at Sinai. The whole point of a Seder meal--the primary celebration of Passover--is to make everyone present feel as if they've just escaped from Pharaoh; from slavery to liberation. A given Jew might think these stories are myth without a shred of literal fact or history . . . but the stories can still be immediate and relevant.

And yet, for all the arguing in these stories, for all our arguing with God and our traditon, Judaism is more than conscious of our faults--of how much we, as a people, have screwed up. So the wrestling match continues: with God, with our tradition, with ourselves, with each other.

I look at the Jewish tradition and think: how could it be otherwise?

[JoeyKnothead]

>Let's clarify a couple things - I'm no tree surgeon, and I'm no shrink, but...

What I'm getting at is the negative energy required to maintain one's faith.

I understand a certain compulsion in humans to memorialize tragic events, and I get the honoring of such. What I don't get is this sense that so, so much of the Jewish religion is based on arguing (even in civil, intellectual, and other fashion) with a God one otherwise worships.

I'm using the term arguing specifically because I've seen it in several responses, so if that term is too harsh, we still have an issue of it being debate, or some such. I just sense a lot of negativity in a philosophy that seems centered around conflict with one's own deity.

If it's a constant "struggle", I guess I'm asking when, and maybe for what, do Jews celebrate God?

[Jrosemary]

>Let's clarify a couple things - I'm no tree surgeon, and I'm no shrink, but...

What I'm getting at is the negative energy required to maintain one's faith.

I understand a certain compulsion in humans to memorialize tragic events, and I get the honoring of such. What I don't get is this sense that so, so much of the Jewish religion is based on arguing (even in civil, intellectual, and other fashion) with a God one otherwise worships.

I'm using the term arguing specifically because I've seen it in several responses, so if that term is too harsh, we still have an issue of it being debate, or some such. I just sense a lot of negativity in a philosophy that seems centered around conflict with one's own deity.

If it's a constant "struggle", I guess I'm asking when, and maybe for what, do Jews celebrate God?

I think the answer, in part, is right in this past week's parsha. This prayer, found in Deuteronomy 26:5-10, was a model to be used by all farmers bringing the first fruits of their crop before HaShem. Now it serves as the basis of our Haggadah--the special liturgy we use at the Passover Seder:

My father was a fugitive Aramean. He went down to Egypt with meager numbers and sojourned there; but there he became a great and very populous nation. The Egyptians dealt harshly with us and oppressed us; they imposed heavy labor upon us. We cried to HaShem, the God of our fathers, and HaShem heard our plea and saw our plight, our misery, and our oppression. HaShem freed us from Egypt with a mighty hand, by an outstretched arm and awesome power, and by signs and portents. He brought us to this land, a land flowing with milk and honey. Wherefore I now bring the first fruits of the soil which You, HaShem, have given me.

Judaism is not all about arguing with God. That happens to be the part I like best--so perhaps I've given you a skewered notion of it.

Judaism is largely about sanctification--about making each moment of our lives, each of our activities, holy. HaShem (mythically or otherwise) brought us out of Egypt into Zion; He brought us from slavery to freedom. We covenanted with Him at Sinai, accepting His commandments to help sanctify our lives and this world.

We say a bracha before many activities: that's loosely translated as a blessing. The formula is usually the same:

Blessed are you, HaShem our God, Sovereign of the universe, who has commanded us to . . .

You can fill in the blank with any number of commandments, depending on which one you're performing at the moment: lighting the Shabbat candles, putting on a prayer shawl, etc. There are also brachas of gratitude for seeing a rainbow, or thanking God for creating such diversity among humans . . . and even thanking God for giving us properly functioning bodies when nature calls.

We often refer to God as Avinu Malkenu: our Father, our King. Whatever issues we have with God, we still recognize HaShem as the Eternal One who created the universe and all life within it, as the Source of All Breath, and, more personally, as the One who liberated us from slavery.

How literally one takes all this is, of course, up to the individual Jew. I'm largely agnostic . . . and yet, in Shabbat morning services, during the Kedusha, when we're allegedly joining our voices with those of the Angelic choir--Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh!--well, it's powerful stuff, even if I don't know what I actually believe about it.

Edit to add: Our views of God are not always easy to reconcile. Honestly, though, it's hard for me to understand any notion of God that's all sweetness and light--or all cruelty and tyranny. Or any notion of God that's entirely impersonal . . . or entirely personal. Or entirely transcendent, or entirely immanent. When you have a religion that is open, as Judaism is, to many different concepts of God, I think you're bound to end up with a God you can both worship and argue with.

[Lioba]

Is it really such a great contradiction to praise God and to argue with him?
It can also be a sign for a good relation. Gentiles always tried to cherish their Gods by gifts, to control spiritual forces by magic and so on. And all the heathen gods and godesses became very much upset when the mortals didn´t show enough fear and obedience and didn´t offer enough.
The God of Isreal seems to be a God that claims to be more and higher than all heathen Entities, but their seems to be a real vivid relation between him and his followers.

[Jrosemary]

Is it really such a great contradiction to praise God and to argue with him?
It can also be a sign for a good relation. Gentiles always tried to cherish their Gods by gifts, to control spiritual forces by magic and so on. And all the heathen gods and godesses became very much upset when the mortals didn´t show enough fear and obedience and didn´t offer enough.
The God of Isreal seems to be a God that claims to be more and higher than all heathen Entities, but their seems to be a real vivid relation between him and his followers.

I agree with you about the God of Israel, but disagree with you about the heathen gods. Some myths certainly read the way you suggest, but not all. Look at the wonderful relationship between Athena and Odysseus or Athena and Telemachus in The Odyssey. Or between Isis and Lucius in The Golden Ass.

In the latter, in fact, Isis is presented as a monotheistic deity, much like the God of Israel. Apulieus calls Her 'the single embodiment of all gods and goddesses.' In other words, all other gods and goddesses, as far as Apulieus is concerned, are just aspects of Isis.

Taking off my agnostic hat for a moment: perhaps the Eternal One has different aspects for different peoples and individuals. Members of the Abrahamic faiths know the Eternal One as the God of Israel, Apulieus knew the Eternal One as Isis, Hindus as Vishnu, Durga, Shiva, etc.

But now I'm digressing, lol. I can't resist making pluralistic comments!

[Lioba]

Yes, the relation between Odysseus and Athena is special.Somehow the characters fit together, rational, measured, normally honest but also able to use cleverness instead of brutal force. It´s interesting that both examples you bring in ar high poetry, beautiful and full of deeper reflection.
Maybe there is in the human heart an ideal how the relation between creator and creation should be and a rational creature longs for real mental interaction.

[JoeyKnothead]

I see what y'all are getting at now, especially about this "arguing" being a sign of a healthy relationship. It's not so much an argument as it is working out what is moral and ethical, and how one's own morals compare to God's.

Based on my very limited understanding of Christianity, I always took it to be disrespectful, what with God being God and all. I see now that to engage God on these issues is actually respecting the call to understand what is moral.

[Jrosemary]

I see what y'all are getting at now, especially about this "arguing" being a sign of a healthy relationship. It's not so much an argument as it is working out what is moral and ethical, and how one's own morals compare to God's.

Based on my very limited understanding of Christianity, I always took it to be disrespectful, what with God being God and all. I see now that to engage God on these issues is actually respecting the call to understand what is moral.

Exactly. In fact, I think we have to be open in two ways: we need to be open to challenging God--to reminding God, with Abraham, that the Judge of all the earth must Himself be Just. On the other hand, we need to be open to correction for ourselves. The Torah gives us some troubling stories about God--but, at the same time, there are many stories about how God teaches us righteousness. For example, God commands us to love the strangers in our midst, for we were once strangers in Egypt. (Our time as slaves in Egypt, whether myth or history, should teach us to care for the downtrodden and oppressed.)

We can and (I think) should challenge the God we meet in the Torah--but we should allow the God we meet in the Torah to challenge us and teach us as well.

[elle]

I see what y'all are getting at now, especially about this "arguing" being a sign of a healthy relationship. It's not so much an argument as it is working out what is moral and ethical, and how one's own morals compare to God's.

Based on my very limited understanding of Christianity, I always took it to be disrespectful, what with God being God and all. I see now that to engage God on these issues is actually respecting the call to understand what is moral.

As a Christian, I was never presented with the idea that it was okay to argue with God or disagree with anything written in the Bible. It was more than just disrespectful. It was a sign of arrogance and unwillingness to subject oneself to God's will - definitely a sin.

It's very encouraging to see that Judaism is not that way. I like the Jewish take on the relationship between man and god much better and think it's more healthy.