Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

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Jrosemary
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Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

Post #1

Post by Jrosemary »

Judaism is not a belief-centered religion. We have no formal creed--in fact, Judaism consistently insists that "Deed outweighs creed."

Consequently, Jews have a variety of beliefs about God. Some Jews see God as the essence of being. They often have a monistic view--God is one because everything is one. Some Jews insist that God is impersonal, rather like the Force; some Jews insist that God is personal--elsewise there'd be no point in praying to Him or wrestling with Him. Some Jews think God is all-powerful, but not all-good; some Jews think that God is all-good, but not all-powerful (notably Kushner.) Some Jews think trying to categorize God with terms like 'good' or 'evil' is impossible. They think that God is utterly transcendent and beyond human comprehension--though they sometimes won't deny that God is immanent too!

And some Jews deny God's existence or seriously doubt God's existence. Some of these Jews are secular, but you can find others in synagogue.

I've always considered this a strength. I love the fact that every synagogue seems to have its token atheists--that atheism is no bar to practicing Judaism.

I had a number of atheists at my last Seder (most of them were ex-Christians, not Jews) and they seemed to love the experience of participating in a religious ritual and arguing seriously about religious issues and stories without having anyone tell them what they should believe.

Not surprisingly, the Jewish lack of formal beliefs came up during the Seder. And one young man--who is Jewish--said that he has trouble with the fact that atheism is so easily accepted in Judaism; we are a religion, after all, he pointed out. No, he doesn't want to kick the Jewish atheists out of synagogue . . . but he doesn't see the broad acceptance of atheism (especially in liberal synagogues) as a strength, as I do.

I thought that over. I'm still of the opinion that the freedom to be an atheist, agnostic, theist, or monist and a practicing Jew is a strength of Judaism and all to the good. Judaism has long been a religion of questions, arguments and debates--so, to me, it seems not only logical but necessary to keep all these options on the table.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Anyone agree or disagree?

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Re: Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

Post #2

Post by Goat »

Jrosemary wrote:Judaism is not a belief-centered religion. We have no formal creed--in fact, Judaism consistently insists that "Deed outweighs creed."

Consequently, Jews have a variety of beliefs about God. Some Jews see God as the essence of being. They often have a monistic view--God is one because everything is one. Some Jews insist that God is impersonal, rather like the Force; some Jews insist that God is personal--elsewise there'd be no point in praying to Him or wrestling with Him. Some Jews think God is all-powerful, but not all-good; some Jews think that God is all-good, but not all-powerful (notably Kushner.) Some Jews think trying to categorize God with terms like 'good' or 'evil' is impossible. They think that God is utterly transcendent and beyond human comprehension--though they sometimes won't deny that God is immanent too!

And some Jews deny God's existence or seriously doubt God's existence. Some of these Jews are secular, but you can find others in synagogue.

I've always considered this a strength. I love the fact that every synagogue seems to have its token atheists--that atheism is no bar to practicing Judaism.

I had a number of atheists at my last Seder (most of them were ex-Christians, not Jews) and they seemed to love the experience of participating in a religious ritual and arguing seriously about religious issues and stories without having anyone tell them what they should believe.

Not surprisingly, the Jewish lack of formal beliefs came up during the Seder. And one young man--who is Jewish--said that he has trouble with the fact that atheism is so easily accepted in Judaism; we are a religion, after all, he pointed out. No, he doesn't want to kick the Jewish atheists out of synagogue . . . but he doesn't see the broad acceptance of atheism (especially in liberal synagogues) as a strength, as I do.

I thought that over. I'm still of the opinion that the freedom to be an atheist, agnostic, theist, or monist and a practicing Jew is a strength of Judaism and all to the good. Judaism has long been a religion of questions, arguments and debates--so, to me, it seems not only logical but necessary to keep all these options on the table.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Anyone agree or disagree?
Now, that depends.. what is the purpose of religion? Different people will come up with different answers. If you think that religion is to glorify God, then it is not a strength. If you think that religion is to give people a connection to the community, to lend strength to the community, and to help people find a path on how to live, then it certainly is a strength.

As always, there is more than one answer and one opinion on that matter, but isn't that part of being Jewish?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #3

Post by JoeyKnothead »

As an atheist I see a strength to the Jewish position that one must make up their own mind. I would contend by inviting atheists into synagogues the Jews show themselves to be trying to "convert" (for all the right reasons and definitions) someone who doesn't have an understanding of the Jewish God.
I personally credit cnorman18 for my considering a god possible, and even personal testimony of this god as plausible. Had I not engaged in this dialog I fear I'd still be a "militant" atheist.
I think the Jews, with their "soft sale" show a face of religion that is practical, supportable, and follows reason and logic to a degree other religions don't.
Where other religions seem to coerce worship, the Jews seem to worry about themselves, and their relationship with God. I'm allowed the freedom to learn, to believe, and to "hang" on the strength of the arguments, not on fear of retribution.
Catching flies with honey may not be a valid argument, but it sure does make it easier to listen, and to try to understand otherwise difficult concepts.
I used to think the God of the Tanakh was a pretty mean spirited individual, but now I realize the Jews are telling me, "So what, get on to God about it, and show this God what it is to be a good person". Now if I consider God, I don't fear Him, I fear what it may mean if I don't stand up and declare something wrong. In the same vein, I should also feel compelled to state when something is right.

To me it seems the Jews don't so much fret over the properties of God, but of what these properties and stories in the Tanakh tell us about our own humanity.
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Post #4

Post by Goat »

joeyknuccione wrote: To me it seems the Jews don't so much fret over the properties of God, but of what these properties and stories in the Tanakh tell us about our own humanity.
I think you will notice a lot of the stories in the Tanakh are not about what God commanded so much as stories about the people in power, and how they screwed up.. and yet still were OK with God, despite their mistakes.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #5

Post by Jrosemary »

Oy--I just made a long reply and the computer ate it. ](*,)

I'll start over tomorrow . . . meanwhile, thanks Goat and Joey for giving me quite a bit to chew on!

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Post #6

Post by JoeyKnothead »

goat wrote:
joeyknuccione wrote: To me it seems the Jews don't so much fret over the properties of God, but of what these properties and stories in the Tanakh tell us about our own humanity.
I think you will notice a lot of the stories in the Tanakh are not about what God commanded so much as stories about the people in power, and how they screwed up.. and yet still were OK with God, despite their mistakes.
Coming out from under my limited understanding of the Christian take on the Tanakh, I agree. Where once I was led to believe these were tales of a "mighty God", I'm starting to see them as tales of mighty people.

I get the idea we are to critically analyze these people and situations, and in doing so we must analyze ourselves. Do I condemn a person for not following the will of God, or do I hail them for standing up for their own principles? I rest my own humanity on my analysis.

It's easy to agree with God when you feel He's right, but it takes one heckuva human to shake his fist and say God is wrong.

This is what appeals to me so much about the Jews. They may argue till they're blue in the face that my take on X is wrong, but they'll freely admit they could be wrong as well. And then to invite me into a synagogue, knowing I may well never accept God as an entity, is to me a very fundamental understanding of human nature, and even an act of keeping a potential enemy where the dialog can continue.

Whether I worship the Jewish God or not, I am expected to do my part to better the lot of man, and the planet in general. What's not to love about that?
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Post #7

Post by Jrosemary »

joeyknuccione wrote: This is what appeals to me so much about the Jews. They may argue till they're blue in the face that my take on X is wrong, but they'll freely admit they could be wrong as well. And then to invite me into a synagogue, knowing I may well never accept God as an entity, is to me a very fundamental understanding of human nature, and even an act of keeping a potential enemy where the dialog can continue.
If you do walk into a synagogue, I hope you feel welcome. This is something Jews need to work on--some synagogues are great at welcoming new folks and explaining how the service works, but others leave you floundering. They assume that if you walk into a synagogue, you must have a clue. And there you are, sitting in a pew listening to a service that's largely in Hebrew, not knowing how to sing or chant along and not knowing what the heck you're supposed to be doing.

In general, the more liberal the synagogue, the more accessible the service. So I always advise people to start with a Reform or Reconstructionist synagogue. (Unless I'm with them, in which case I take them to a really funky independent synagogue on the Upper West Side of Manhattan.)
Whether I worship the Jewish God or not, I am expected to do my part to better the lot of man, and the planet in general. What's not to love about that?
This is something that gentile admirers and Jews-by-choice have to offer: we can remind born Jews how cool Judaism is. Many born Jews take the best of their religion for granted: sure you can argue with God or even refuse to believe in Him. Sure you can belong without assenting to a creed. Sure you can debate all kinds of religious questions. They take all that as a given, so they don't seem to appreciate that Judaism has a unique religious culture.

I'm always reminding my rabbi that this is the great thing about Jews-by-choice. We know how cool Judaism is--and we don't have all the hang-ups about being Jewish that born Jews have.

Ok, ok--we aquire some of the hang-ups. But that takes a while. ;)

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Re: Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

Post #8

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Jrosemary wrote:Judaism is not a belief-centered religion.
To the extent that Judaism is not solely a religion (but also a people, a culture) it is not belief-centered, but to the extent that it is a religion it is clearly belief-centered. This is not meant as a rejection or denigration of atheist Jews, nor to argue the primacy of theology over praxis, but we would be remiss if we failed to recognize the centrality of the Shma or the fact that many a Jew died reciting it. And I say this as a 64-year-old who has been the respectful atheist at more than a few seders.

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Re: Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

Post #9

Post by Jrosemary »

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Jrosemary wrote:Judaism is not a belief-centered religion.
To the extent that Judaism is not solely a religion (but also a people, a culture) it is not belief-centered, but to the extent that it is a religion it is clearly belief-centered. This is not meant as a rejection or denigration of atheist Jews, nor to argue the primacy of theology over praxis, but we would be remiss if we failed to recognize the centrality of the Shma or the fact that many a Jew died reciting it. And I say this as a 64-year-old who has been the respectful atheist at more than a few seders.
I'm sticking to my guns here: Judaism is not a belief-centered religion. You need only look at a genuinely belief centered religion--Christianity--to see the difference. In Christianity, you must believe thus and thus or you cannot properly said to be a Christian. Different denominations argue over what precise points you need to believe, but beliefs remain the litmus test to determine who is and who isn't a Christian.

No such situation exists in Judaism. Beliefs are never a litmus test to determine a person's Jewishness. My grandfather has never set foot in a synagogue and I doubt he can recite the Sh'ma--but the most ultra-Orthodox synagogue in the world would acknowledge him as a Jew.

Neil Gillman at the Jewish Theological Seminary put the matter well: there are three aspects to being religious: belonging, doing, and believing. In Judaism, the central aspects are belonging and doing; believing is a distant third and not at all central.

Yes, we have traditional teachings. Yes, we have the Rambam's (Maimondides') thirteen principles. But our esteem for the Rambam not withstanding, practicing Jews have argued each and every one of the thirteen principles.

Moreover, a practicing atheist or agnostic will presumably aim to die with the Sh'ma on her lips, the same as the most believing Jew. (And I'd wager that plenty of atheist and agnostic Jews have chosen to persecution over conversion, the same as believing Jews.)

Even converting to another religion can't wipe out your Jewishness--just look at Bob Dylan. He went through his Christian phase, but he was still a Jew (albeit a Jew in error to some, while he was still professing Christianity) and the Chasidim welcome him with open arms at their telethons.

Now, I think our lack of emphasis on beliefs is a positive aspect of Judaism. Some Jews disagree and don't see how it makes sense to be a practicing Jew and an atheist or even agnostic. And it's not only Orthodox Jews who raise the question: one young man I know who raises this question is Reform and the other is Conservative.

However, for my part, I think our lack of emphasis on belief and our acceptance of practicing atheists and agnostics is all to the better--in fact, it's one of the best things about Judaism.

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Re: Practicing Atheists--Strength or Problem?

Post #10

Post by Jayhawker Soule »

Jrosemary wrote:
Jayhawker Soule wrote:
Jrosemary wrote:Judaism is not a belief-centered religion.
To the extent that Judaism is not solely a religion (but also a people, a culture) it is not belief-centered, but to the extent that it is a religion it is clearly belief-centered. This is not meant as a rejection or denigration of atheist Jews, nor to argue the primacy of theology over praxis, but we would be remiss if we failed to recognize the centrality of the Shma or the fact that many a Jew died reciting it. And I say this as a 64-year-old who has been the respectful atheist at more than a few seders.
I'm sticking to my guns here: Judaism is not a belief-centered religion.
Stick to whatever you wish and define 'religion' however you wish. I repeat: to the extent that Judaism is not solely a religion (but also a people, a culture) it is not belief-centered, but to the extent that it is a religion it is clearly belief-centered.

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