Is Buddhism logical?

[cholland]

"The Buddha described Nirvana as the perfect peace of the state of mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesas)." -Wikipedia

Wouldn't Nirvana in itself be a craving?

[Bag-Of-Hammers]

Budhism, like The Tebetan Book Of The Dead is phylosophy. It sometimes uses mythology as a teaching tool.

[Coyotero]

Budhism, like The Tebetan Book Of The Dead is phylosophy. It sometimes uses mythology as a teaching tool.

What, like every other religion ever?

[mismert]

With Buddhism the overall objective is to be aware, be aware of the Eight fold path and the 4 noble truths, everything must be with the right mindset, concentration, behavior, speech, purpose, knowledge, effort, occupation. These are the 8 fold path. Following this is how you reach nirvana. And nirvana is not just loosing all desire, its loosing a sense of self, you are no longer an individual you are nothingness. There is no desire to get there because the path you take to get there is desire-less. You are a human being following what you perceive as the truth, no desires. Those who do desire do not follow the right path and will never reach nirvana.

[Slopeshoulder]

As I understand it, it's not actually the cessation of desire that buddhists desire, but rather the cessation of harmful, illogical, or obesseve craving and attachments. Otherwise they would be wishing for death rather than transformation, an annihilistic rather than liberating idea. Humans desire.
So there is nothing inherently illogical in "buddhism" viz. the OP, only in the ill-informed formulation of the question, which if true would reveal an illogic that actually does not inhere.
FWIW, my entire framework (Spiritful Living) is based upon six fundamental human desires that lay beneath and beyond belief: meaning, purpose, value, resilience, connection, and transcendence (however defined). I say that spirit lives in and for desire, to satisfy desires. Buddhism understands that cravings and attachments undermine the satisfaction of these desires.

[sickles]

thats exactly it, you have to want nothing to get to nirvana. including nirvana. Its not something you can strive for, its something you have to abandon to get. i think this is in someones signature ;p

"When I realize I am nothing that's wisdom and when I realize I am everything that's love and between the two my life turns." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

one seeking nirvana abandons love, because of the bonds of suffering it creates. One seeking nirvana just seeks wisdom and thats it.

[sickles]

As I understand it, it's not actually the cessation of desire that buddhists desire, but rather the cessation of harmful, illogical, or obesseve craving and attachments. Otherwise they would be wishing for death rather than transformation, an annihilistic rather than liberating idea. Humans desire.
So there is nothing inherently illogical in "buddhism" viz. the OP, only in the ill-informed formulation of the question, which if true would reveal an illogic that actually does not inhere.
FWIW, my entire framework (Spiritful Living) is based upon six fundamental human desires that lay beneath and beyond belief: meaning, purpose, value, resilience, connection, and transcendence (however defined). I say that spirit lives in and for desire, to satisfy desires. Buddhism understands that cravings and attachments undermine the satisfaction of these desires.

cravings and desires, now that is something that humans are innately born with ;p

[Mascaput]

I understand that Buddha encouraged skepticism, disregarding faith. I know that some find him a humanist.
To that extent , one can find him better than Yeshua [Issa], but karma and reincarnation rank as nonsense.
Buddhims qualifies as an atheistic religion, albeit a former Pm. of Japan said it has many gods. What is the latest information on that?

While it is now true that Buddhism, like Christianity, is now akin to a religion, on account of the chanting, praying, ritual, this was not the original intent of the Fifth High Lord, nor of the one to come after him.
He was a High Teacher of Reason, but, like many good men before him, once dead, his teachings became twisted and altered, so as to remove much of the true value of his teachings. Mankind seems to have an base desire within him to take things out of context and mould them to suit his base need for security, especially when he can use such teachings to rule over his fellow man, as that is an easier path than accepting the truth of what was originally taught.

Here is what he said about faith/belief, according to the teachings of The Way, which he followed in his time, and as Joshua Ben Miriam was also to follow some hundreds of years later: Said Kutadanta, “Show me the truth, and I shall see it. But thy doctrine is without consistency. If it were consistent, it would stand; but as it is not, it will pass away.�
The Blessed One replied, “The truth will never pass away—it needs no protection, and is not alterable.�
Kutadanta said, “I am told that thou teachest The Law, yet thou tearest down religion. Thy disciples despise rites and abandon immolation, but reverence for the gods can be shown only by sacrifices. The very nature of religion consists in worship and sacrifice.�
Said the Buddha, “Greater than the immolation of bullocks is the sacrifice of self. He who offers to the imagined gods his evil desires, will see the uselessness of slaughtering animals at the altar. Blood has no cleansing power, but the eradication of lusts will make the heart pure. Better than worshipping gods is obedience to the laws of that which is right and good.�
Kutadanta, being of religious disposition, and anxious about his fate after death, had sacrificed countless victims. Now he saw the folly of atonement by blood. Not yet satisfied, however, with the teachings of The Way, Kutadanta continued, “Thou believest, O Master, that beings are reborn; that they migrate in the evolution of life; and that, subject to the law of karma, we must reap what we sow. Yet thou teachest the non-existence of the soul! Thy disciples praise utter self-extinction as the highest bliss of nirvana. If I am merely a combination of the sankharas, my existence will cease when I die. If I am merely a compound of sensations and ideas and desires, wither can I go at the dissolution of the body?�
Said the Blessed One, “O Brahman, thou art religious and earnest. Thou art seriously concerned about thy soul. Yet is thy work in vain because thou art lacking in the one thing that is needful. There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no ego-entity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words. Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities. Thy heart, O Brahman, is cleaving still to self; thou art anxious about heaven but thou seekest the pleasures of self in heaven, and thus thou canst not see the bliss of truth and the immortality of truth.
“Verily I say unto thee, the Blessed One has not come to teach death, but to teach life, and thou discernest not the nature of living and dying. This body will be dissolved, and no amount of sacrifice will save it. Therefore, seek thou the life that is of the mind, which is spirit.
“Where self is, truth cannot be; yet when truth comes, self will disappear. Therefore, let thy mind rest in the truth; propagate the truth; put thy whole will in it, and let it spread. In the truth thou shalt live forever."

Regards,
Mascaput

[Slopeshoulder]

I understand that Buddha encouraged skepticism, disregarding faith. I know that some find him a humanist.
To that extent , one can find him better than Yeshua [Issa], but karma and reincarnation rank as nonsense.
Buddhims qualifies as an atheistic religion, albeit a former Pm. of Japan said it has many gods. What is the latest information on that?

While it is now true that Buddhism, like Christianity, is now akin to a religion, on account of the chanting, praying, ritual, this was not the original intent of the Fifth High Lord, nor of the one to come after him.
He was a High Teacher of Reason, but, like many good men before him, once dead, his teachings became twisted and altered, so as to remove much of the true value of his teachings. Mankind seems to have an base desire within him to take things out of context and mould them to suit his base need for security, especially when he can use such teachings to rule over his fellow man, as that is an easier path than accepting the truth of what was originally taught.

Here is what he said about faith/belief, according to the teachings of The Way, which he followed in his time, and as Joshua Ben Miriam was also to follow some hundreds of years later: Said Kutadanta, “Show me the truth, and I shall see it. But thy doctrine is without consistency. If it were consistent, it would stand; but as it is not, it will pass away.�
The Blessed One replied, “The truth will never pass away—it needs no protection, and is not alterable.�
Kutadanta said, “I am told that thou teachest The Law, yet thou tearest down religion. Thy disciples despise rites and abandon immolation, but reverence for the gods can be shown only by sacrifices. The very nature of religion consists in worship and sacrifice.�
Said the Buddha, “Greater than the immolation of bullocks is the sacrifice of self. He who offers to the imagined gods his evil desires, will see the uselessness of slaughtering animals at the altar. Blood has no cleansing power, but the eradication of lusts will make the heart pure. Better than worshipping gods is obedience to the laws of that which is right and good.�
Kutadanta, being of religious disposition, and anxious about his fate after death, had sacrificed countless victims. Now he saw the folly of atonement by blood. Not yet satisfied, however, with the teachings of The Way, Kutadanta continued, “Thou believest, O Master, that beings are reborn; that they migrate in the evolution of life; and that, subject to the law of karma, we must reap what we sow. Yet thou teachest the non-existence of the soul! Thy disciples praise utter self-extinction as the highest bliss of nirvana. If I am merely a combination of the sankharas, my existence will cease when I die. If I am merely a compound of sensations and ideas and desires, wither can I go at the dissolution of the body?�
Said the Blessed One, “O Brahman, thou art religious and earnest. Thou art seriously concerned about thy soul. Yet is thy work in vain because thou art lacking in the one thing that is needful. There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no ego-entity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words. Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities. Thy heart, O Brahman, is cleaving still to self; thou art anxious about heaven but thou seekest the pleasures of self in heaven, and thus thou canst not see the bliss of truth and the immortality of truth.
“Verily I say unto thee, the Blessed One has not come to teach death, but to teach life, and thou discernest not the nature of living and dying. This body will be dissolved, and no amount of sacrifice will save it. Therefore, seek thou the life that is of the mind, which is spirit.
“Where self is, truth cannot be; yet when truth comes, self will disappear. Therefore, let thy mind rest in the truth; propagate the truth; put thy whole will in it, and let it spread. In the truth thou shalt live forever."

Regards,
Mascaput

Useful post, but I must ask: Did they speak in king james english? Whither thou gettest this tranlation?

[Mascaput]

[quote/]..................... “Where self is, truth cannot be; yet when truth comes, self will disappear. Therefore, let thy mind rest in the truth; propagate the truth; put thy whole will in it, and let it spread. In the truth thou shalt live forever."

Regards,
Mascaput

Useful post, but I must ask: Did they speak in king james english? Whither thou gettest this tranlation?[/quote]

Fair enough question No they didn't, but the translation of the Way texts we currently have were done by the Brothers in somewhat earlier times, when the depth and quality of English was much more descriptive than what we use now. So most of it was left as it was then, as subtlety of word and meaning is very important when conveying meaning, especially on a subject like this, as you might well imagine. It may seem cumbersome to some modern day readers, but then again one's degree of literacy is a choice.
The text itslelf is an extract from The Book of Man, which was the original collection of teachings of the Nazarenes, the Brotherhood of Light, and it has been made available in both paper and ebook formats. The paper version consists of seven volumes, but the entire collection is a available in Mobipocket ebook format at http://www.mobipocket.com/EN/eBooks/eBo ... kID=139547

Regards,
Masc

[Mascaput]

thats exactly it, you have to want nothing to get to nirvana. including nirvana. Its not something you can strive for, its something you have to abandon to get. i think this is in someones signature ;p

"When I realize I am nothing that's wisdom and when I realize I am everything that's love and between the two my life turns." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

one seeking nirvana abandons love, because of the bonds of suffering it creates. One seeking nirvana just seeks wisdom and thats it.

Indeed it is, and Nirvana is a state of mind that equates to ultimate contentment; the extinction of the false self. One must come to know the true self, the higher mind, and this cannot be achieved by belief and falsehood, but by thinking with truth, knowledge, logic and reason, which is The Way. This knowledge of the true self is known as the einsoph.


Regards,
Mascaput