Initial Discussion and Reading

[Bio-logical]

The purpose of this bible study is to read the bible in a logical way as a narrative and as a religious text that has shaped the practices of those religions that follow it.

This is not a "Christian" bible study, although people of all religious backgrounds are welcome to participate. It is meant to be a study of the bible as a text, to better understand the book in a scholarly manner.

The discussion of origin is outside the scope of the study - we will not be debating whether something is the word of man or god.

Discussions regarding interpretations of the text are entirely allowed and encouraged, this is the main purpose of the discussion.

Discussions regarding implications of different interpretations may arise but should be kept from disintegrating into which is the correct interpretation.

We will be reading according to the Scholar's Plan, a narratively chronological plan to read the bible so that the stories in it take place in order. We will have assigned reading and will move on when the discussion has reached a conclusion or when it involves few participants, at which point we will ask that they continue it in a separate thread.

The readings are based on the King James Version of the Bible, links to the reading will be posted before starting a new section, but participants are welcome to read whichever translation they prefer and are encouraged to discuss differences in translation.

As for our first reading:

I feel it is appropriate to read Genesis 1- 5, which is approximately equal to "5 days" of reading in the plan but I think it holds much to discuss without mixing the flood into it yet. The reading includes creation through the fall of man, including Cain and Abel and everything up to the introduction of Noah and before the causes of the flood. Feel free to past anything that strikes you as you read it, no need to wait for a particular date.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gen. 4:1 Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord [YHVH]."

Contrary to Exodus 3:14 and 6:3, here we have Havvah (Eve) quoted employing the name "YHVH". Supporters of the Documentary Hypothesis see this as a legacy of differing narratives (P vs J).

[Goat]

Gen. 4:1 Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord [YHVH]."

Contrary to Exodus 3:14 and 6:3, here we have Havvah (Eve) quoted employing the name "YHVH". Supporters of the Documentary Hypothesis see this as a legacy of differing narratives (P vs J).

It would be also good to note that Havvah means 'life bearer'. This emphasizes the allegorical nature of Genesis.

[myth-one.com]

I suggest that we simply acknowledge the lack of scholarly consensus on the rendering of Genesis 1:1-4 and move on.

First, let's confirm (again) that the Garden of Eden "creation" was a recreation:

The idea that the creation described in detail beginning at Genesis 1:3 is a recreation of the original earth created in Genesis 1:1 and decimated between verses one and two is supported elsewhere in the Bible:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)

1) Thou sendest forth thy spirit --

... And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2)

2) They (mankind) are created.

3) And thou renewest the face of the earth. God recreated the earth.

Confirming it's a recreation begun in Genesis 1:3!
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

[myth-one.com]

There is an incredibly interesting theme of dualism maintained throughout the Bible:

• 1) There are two testaments -- the old and the new.
  2) Two physical copies of the Ten Commandments were produced by God.
  2) To enter the Kingdom of God requires two births. You must be born of the flesh and born again as a spirit.
  3) Jesus will come again to the earth -- The Second Coming.
  4) Two others crucified with Jesus.

Those are just a few examples.

There will also be two earths according to the Bible, and this relates to Genesis 1:3 being a recreation of a decimated earth.

God created the first earth in Genesis 1:1 and sinning against the commandments of God by Satan and other angels under his command resulted in a formless, void, dark earth.

God intervened, recreating the earth, and placing mankind there as guardians of this restored earth. They too will fail:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

In another dualism, they fail for the same reason the rebellious angels failed -- they wanted to do things their way -- not God's way:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Jesus is now preparing the second new earth which He will bring back with Him at His Second Coming:

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

The same exact scenario is being repeated with man as was with the angels. But this time we will get a completely new earth! (The reason there are no seas on "Earth II" is because there are no more humans at that time. Everyone present will be spiritual beings. The items needed to sustain physical life are no longer required.)
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gen. 4:1 Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord [YHVH]."

Contrary to Exodus 3:14 and 6:3, here we have Havvah (Eve) quoted employing the name "YHVH". Supporters of the Documentary Hypothesis see this as a legacy of differing narratives (P vs J).

It would be also good to note that Havvah means 'life bearer'. This emphasizes the allegorical nature of Genesis.

goat, while I agree that it's worth noting "that Havvah means 'life bearer'", I do not agree that this supports your conclusion. If you would like, we might pursue the matter in another thread focused on addressing the nature and development of these narratives.

By the way, according to at least two standard commentaries Havvah could also mean "living thing" and has also been traced to an Aramaic and Arabic word for serpent.

[Cathar1950]

There is an incredibly interesting theme of dualism maintained throughout the Bible:

• 1) There are two testaments -- the old and the new.
  2) Two physical copies of the Ten Commandments were produced by God.
  2) To enter the Kingdom of God requires two births. You must be born of the flesh and born again as a spirit.
  3) Jesus will come again to the earth -- The Second Coming.
  4) Two others crucified with Jesus.

Those are just a few examples.

There will also be two earths according to the Bible, and this relates to Genesis 1:3 being a recreation of a decimated earth.

God created the first earth in Genesis 1:1 and sinning against the commandments of God by Satan and other angels under his command resulted in a formless, void, dark earth.

God intervened, recreating the earth, and placing mankind there as guardians of this restored earth. They too will fail:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

In another dualism, they fail for the same reason the rebellious angels failed -- they wanted to do things their way -- not God's way:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Jesus is now preparing the second new earth which He will bring back with Him at His Second Coming:

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

The same exact scenario is being repeated with man as was with the angels. But this time we will get a completely new earth! (The reason there are no seas on "Earth II" is because there are no more humans at that time. Everyone present will be spiritual beings. The items needed to sustain physical life are no longer required.)
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

I think we are off to a bad start when we are reading Genesis and quoting the NT. Granted commentaries and give us some insight but I see more of a reinterpretation going on with the use of NT passages. Now using Job or the Psalms might be a better fit as they could very well be older then Genesis which began as two different stories sometime after The times of David and Solomon around the 8th or 9th centuries BCE...

But the story of two-ness is simply uncalled for.

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is an incredibly interesting theme of dualism maintained throughout the Bible:

• 1) There are two testaments -- the old and the new.
  2) Two physical copies of the Ten Commandments were produced by God.
  2) To enter the Kingdom of God requires two births. You must be born of the flesh and born again as a spirit.
  3) Jesus will come again to the earth -- The Second Coming.
  4) Two others crucified with Jesus.

Those are just a few examples.

There will also be two earths according to the Bible, and this relates to Genesis 1:3 being a recreation of a decimated earth.

God created the first earth in Genesis 1:1 and sinning against the commandments of God by Satan and other angels under his command resulted in a formless, void, dark earth.

God intervened, recreating the earth, and placing mankind there as guardians of this restored earth. They too will fail:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

In another dualism, they fail for the same reason the rebellious angels failed -- they wanted to do things their way -- not God's way:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Jesus is now preparing the second new earth which He will bring back with Him at His Second Coming:

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

The same exact scenario is being repeated with man as was with the angels. But this time we will get a completely new earth! (The reason there are no seas on "Earth II" is because there are no more humans at that time. Everyone present will be spiritual beings. The items needed to sustain physical life are no longer required.)
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

I think we are off to a bad start when we are reading Genesis and quoting the NT. Granted commentaries and give us some insight but I see more of a reinterpretation going on with the use of NT passages ...

We are, indeed, off to a horrible start replete with shoddy logic and eisegesis. If this is what was intended as scholarly bible study then I'm clearly wasting my time.

... using Job or the Psalms might be a better fit as they could very well be older then Genesis which began as two different stories sometime after The times of David and Solomon around the 8th or 9th centuries BCE...

I think it best not to present hypothesis as fact. The current consensus on Wellhausen's stuff is considerably more nuanced than that popularized by R. E. Friedman, and there is good reason to believe that strands of narrative within Genesis are considerably older than Job. See, for example, Blinkensopp.

[Bio-logical]

Moderater Intervention

This is becoming outside of the scope of this discussion. We should be discussing the text itself without too much speculation. Once again this is a book discussion about the bible meant to be scholarly study of the text. This is not nor is it meant to be a theological study. Try to stick to what the reading actually says and offer references to other scripture only as an effort to expound upon one within the reading. If you would like to start a discussion or debate regarding your beliefs, there are other forums for that.

There are nearly infinite interpretations of the bible and there is no reason you cannot present yours, but this is not a place to debate the warrants of such beliefs, just a statement of what and why.

There is an incredibly interesting theme of dualism maintained throughout the Bible:

• 1) There are two testaments -- the old and the new.
  2) Two physical copies of the Ten Commandments were produced by God.
  2) To enter the Kingdom of God requires two births. You must be born of the flesh and born again as a spirit.
  3) Jesus will come again to the earth -- The Second Coming.
  4) Two others crucified with Jesus.

Those are just a few examples.

There will also be two earths according to the Bible, and this relates to Genesis 1:3 being a recreation of a decimated earth.

God created the first earth in Genesis 1:1 and sinning against the commandments of God by Satan and other angels under his command resulted in a formless, void, dark earth.

God intervened, recreating the earth, and placing mankind there as guardians of this restored earth. They too will fail:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

In another dualism, they fail for the same reason the rebellious angels failed -- they wanted to do things their way -- not God's way:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Jesus is now preparing the second new earth which He will bring back with Him at His Second Coming:

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

The same exact scenario is being repeated with man as was with the angels. But this time we will get a completely new earth! (The reason there are no seas on "Earth II" is because there are no more humans at that time. Everyone present will be spiritual beings. The items needed to sustain physical life are no longer required.)
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am bowing out of this forum. I hope those of you who continue to participate get something of value for your efforts. It really is a remarkably rich text ...

L'shalom,

JS

[myth-one.com]

We are not told anywhere in the Bible that Satan and his followers caused the condition of the earth mentioned in Gen 1:2

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth, He knew it to be true. As an absolute minimum, Satan ruled the earth at that time. Satan will not lose this position of authority until Jesus returns, defeats Satan, and Satan is locked away eternally in hell.

What Satan can and cannot do might be hindered somehow as those rebelling under his leadership are presently being restrained:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

In the human world, dictators are defeated, or die. Dying is not an option for Satan, as he is an everlasting spirit.

When God created the earth it became part of the Kingdom of God. He created it -- so it was His. Part of His Kingdom. Yet it is not now part of the Kingdom of God. It could be considered a "rebellious colony." But, note that after the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the earth will once again become part of the kingdom:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth was dropped out the Kingdom of Heaven due to its leaders rebellion against higher authority. He wanted to move on up and become like God:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

He revolted, ascended into heaven, and challenged God's total authority. The rebellion was squashed, Satan and one third of the angels were cast back down to their work station on the earth. Later, many of Satan's underlings were restrained in hell. Satan is still here on earth in a weakened state fighting God's plan with man. Why? Because if God succeeds, Satan knows he is off to hell for eternity!