Initial Discussion and Reading

[Bio-logical]

The purpose of this bible study is to read the bible in a logical way as a narrative and as a religious text that has shaped the practices of those religions that follow it.

This is not a "Christian" bible study, although people of all religious backgrounds are welcome to participate. It is meant to be a study of the bible as a text, to better understand the book in a scholarly manner.

The discussion of origin is outside the scope of the study - we will not be debating whether something is the word of man or god.

Discussions regarding interpretations of the text are entirely allowed and encouraged, this is the main purpose of the discussion.

Discussions regarding implications of different interpretations may arise but should be kept from disintegrating into which is the correct interpretation.

We will be reading according to the Scholar's Plan, a narratively chronological plan to read the bible so that the stories in it take place in order. We will have assigned reading and will move on when the discussion has reached a conclusion or when it involves few participants, at which point we will ask that they continue it in a separate thread.

The readings are based on the King James Version of the Bible, links to the reading will be posted before starting a new section, but participants are welcome to read whichever translation they prefer and are encouraged to discuss differences in translation.

As for our first reading:

I feel it is appropriate to read Genesis 1- 5, which is approximately equal to "5 days" of reading in the plan but I think it holds much to discuss without mixing the flood into it yet. The reading includes creation through the fall of man, including Cain and Abel and everything up to the introduction of Noah and before the causes of the flood. Feel free to past anything that strikes you as you read it, no need to wait for a particular date.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Having presented a cosmology in which nature is demythologized and painted as the the creation of one supreme and preternatural agency, a creation that was declared "very good," Genesis turns to the problem of evil. Sarna writes:

• The startling contrast between the vision of God's ideal world and the world of human experience requires explanation. How did the pristine harmony between God, man, and nature come to be disturbed? How are we to explain the harsh, hostile workings of nature, the recalcitrance of the soil to man's arduous labors? If God ordered man and woman to procreate, why then does woman suffer the pangs of childbirth in fulfilling God's will? ...
  
  The biblical answer to this fundamental question, diametrically opposed to prevalent pagan conceptions, is that there is no inherent, primordial evil at work in this world. The source of evil is not metaphysical but moral/ Evil is not transhistorical but humanly wrought. Human beings possess free will, but free will is beneficial only insofar as its exercise is in accordance with divine will. Free will and the need for restraint on the liberties of action inevitably generate temptation and the agony of choosing, which only man's self-mastery can resolve satisfactorily. The ensuing narrative demonstrates that abuse of the power of choice makes disaster inescapable.

This process of demythologizing is thematic and fundamental, and served as a radically monotheistic polemic against paganism. The much later and baseless effort to insinuate Satan into the Garden of Evil does a serious disservice to this effort. As Victor P. Hamilton writes:

• Regarding the serpent's origin, we are clearly told that he was an animal made by God. This information immediately removes any possibility that the serpant is to be viewed as some kind of supernatural, divine force. There is no room here for any dualistic ideas about the origins of good and evil.

In fact, given that "[t]hroughout the ancient world, it [the snake] was endowed with divine or semidivine qualities" [Sarna], understanding the snake as merely a clever animal created by God is key. As Sarna goes on to note:

• In sum, the serpent is here reduced to an insignificant, demythologized stature. It possesses no occult powers. It is not demonic, only extraordinarily shrewd, Its role is to lay before the woman the enticing nature of evil and to fan her desire for it. The serpent is not the personification; in fact, its identification with Satan is not encountered before the first century B.C.E., when it appears for the first time in he apocryphal Wisdom of Solomon 2:24.

Sometimes a snake is just a snake.

[Cathar1950]

In sum, the serpent is here reduced to an insignificant, demythologized stature. It possesses no occult powers. It is not demonic, only extraordinarily shrewd, Its role is to lay before the woman the enticing nature of evil and to fan her desire for it. The serpent is not the personification; in fact, its identification with Satan is not encountered before the first century B.C.E., when it appears for the first time in he apocryphal Wisdom of Solomon 2:24.

[/list]Sometimes a snake is just a snake.

Sometimes the symbol of a god, religion or people is made into just a serpent, then a snake.

Here some of the neighboring older stories might give us some insight as to how they were used to reflect they own times as they created their own stories.

[myth-one.com]

Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as without form, void, and dark after it was created in verse one. But every item God created beginning in verse three was seen to be "good." Good is not the same as without form, void, and dark.

There is no reason to believe God ever made anything that was not originally created as good! Other translations of the original Hebrew text indicate that something occurred and the earth had reached this state. For example, the New International Version® of the Bible renders the same verses as follows:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty; darkness was over the surface of the deep... (Genesis 1:1-2)

That is, God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark. So that between verses one and two a period of time occurred. Based on current scientific estimates, that time period was approximately 4.55 billion years. After the initial creation in verse one, God placed angels under the leadership of Satan on the earth as caretakers. Satan and some of those under his control rebelled against God. This sinning against God resulted in the chaotic conditions described in verse two. God intervenes and begins a recreation of a decimated earth in verse three -- about 6,000 years ago.

Here's another point in support of verse three beginning a recreation of a decimated earth. In verse three light, night, and day are created. Verse five marks the end of the first day of "creation." If verse five is the end of the first day of the initial creation, when was the void, dark, formless stuff described in verse two created? Day zero? Day minus one? Could that "blob" have always existed? If verse three creates light, night, and day in an already existing earth, then verse three begins a restoration or recreation because only God and Jesus are said to exist in the beginning:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

There are only two choices: Either God created a formless, void, dark earth in verse one, or God created a good earth and it came to be that way over time. Why would God create an earth as described in verse two? And if He did, isn't infallibility off the table?
====================== Even More Important ===========================

Many Christians believe they possess a soul which lives forever, and point to Genesis 2:7 as proof:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

The Hebrew word translated here as "living soul" is the same word used to describe the other animals which were created. That Hebrew word is nephesh. Nephesh is correctly translated as "a living, breathing being." Nephesh is translated in Genesis 2:7 as a soul in roughly 30% of Bible translations. In the other 70% of translations man was created as a mortal being!

If a different word was truly needed to distinguish between man and the other animals, God would have inspired multiple words to be used! Yet, God inspired none of the original authors to use a separate word when describing mankind. Were the translators wiser than God?

When the Hebrew was translated into English and other languages, the King James translators decided on their own initiative to distinguish between man and other animals. When the word nephesh obviously referred to man, it was invariably replaced with the word soul with its connotations of immortality.

If this study makes it to the New Testament, you will find that the one unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You will also find that blasphemy is man assuming to himself the characteristics of God. By believing and teaching man's immortality, man assumes to himself the Godly characteristic of immortality. Thus many of mankind commit blasphemy. Man believes the lie that "Ye shall not surely die."
=================== Why It's Important ============================

If one believes man was created with an immortal soul, the remainder of the Bible is sealed from his understanding. The first resulting contradiction is in this assignment at Genesis 3:22:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22)

Man was not ejected from the Garden of Eden because He sinned! He was ejected to separate him from the Tree of Life lest he eat of its fruit and live forever. If man was created in Genesis 2:7 as an immortal soul living within a physical body, he already lives forever, and the Tree of Life (Jesus) is unnecessary!

If man is immortal, words like death and perish do not apply to man now or ever. Thus death cannot mean death! It means eternal separation from God, or yada, yada, yada. But if the wages of sin is death, and death means eternal separation from God; then Jesus did not serve your penalty for sinning because He is not separated from God! Thus man seals the Bible from his own understanding:

And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. (Isaiah 29:18)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Is today that day -- is our knowledge sufficient to understand the scriptures?? It depends on how we resolve Genesis 2:7.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Genesis 1:2 describes the earth as without form, void, and dark after it was created in verse one. But every item God created beginning in verse three was seen to be "good." Good is not the same as without form, void, and dark.

There is no reason to believe God ever made anything that was not originally created as good! Other translations of the original Hebrew text indicate that something occurred and the earth had reached this state. For example, the New International Version® of the Bible renders the same verses as follows:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty; darkness was over the surface of the deep... (Genesis 1:1-2)

That is, God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark. So that between verses one and two a period of time occurred.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but not all opinions are created equal. The same might be said for translations and, even more so, for idiosyncratic interpretations of translations.

Actually, the Now in which you are so invested is perfectly fine if understood as introducing a parenthetical, e.g., ...

• When I was much younger and going to college -- now at this time I had very little money -- I use to bring a sack lunch to campus.

To quote Sarna ...

• When God began to create This rendering of the Hebrew looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence. It takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke. Support for understanding the text in this way comes from 2:4 and 5:1, both of which refer to Creation and begin with "When." The Mesopotamian creation epic known as Enuma Elish also commences the same way. In fact, enuma means "when." Apparently, this was a conventional opening style for cosmological narratives. As to the peculiar syntax of the Hebrew sentence -- a noun in the construct state (be-re'shit) with a finite verb (bara') -- analogies may be found in Leviticus 14:46, Isaiah 29:1, and Hosea 1:2. This seems to be the way Rashi understood the text.

Of course, if you have philological arguments supporting your interpretation I would be interested in reading them.

Shabbat shalom.

[myth-one.com]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but not all opinions are created equal.

Actually I'm not entitled to an opinion, I have to believe God's word.

Actually, the Now in which you are so invested is perfectly fine if understood as introducing a parenthetical, e.g., ...

• When I was much younger and going to college -- now at this time I had very little money -- I use to bring a sack lunch to campus.

So it should read like this?

When God began creating the earth, at that time the earth was without form, void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

To quote Sarna ...

• When God began to create This rendering of the Hebrew looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence. It takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke.

I'll agree that Sarna supports your opinion.

Question for either or both of you: If when God began creating the earth, it was void, without form, and dark -- then the earth already existed when God started creating it -- right? How can something already existing be created. It would have to be a re-creation or restoration!

So when God began creating the earth, the earth already existed as void, formless. and dark. If so, then you agree with me that a modification of an existing earth is actually what begins in verse three. Glad we resolved that before continuing.

Another question: The creation of Adam can be traced back about 6,000 years. If Adam and the earth were created within six days of each other, then would not the earth and Adam be within one week of each other in age?

Of course, if you have philological arguments supporting your interpretation I would be interested in reading them.

I absolutely do, Genesis 1-5. I read the assignment.

[Jayhawker Soule]

(BTW: there is also a realy interesting albeit somewhat idiosyncratic translation that renders Adam (the person) as 'groundling'.)

Interesting subject. I've been studying this but have no settled opinion on the etymology of "adam".

Except, of course, for the puns. Adam, is related to the hebrew word Adamah, which means 'red clay', which is related to the word 'edom' which is blood. When God, in Genesis, fashioned mankind out of Adamah (red clay).. it is a pun ...

Actually, dam means blood and I suggest "folk etymology" may be more appropriate than "pun", but the central point is well made by Hamilton (cited in post 31):

• Mesopotamian literature provides numerous examples of man's derivation from clay. We have already seen that in Enuma elish man is created from the blood of a god. In the Gilgamesh Epic (a Babylonian deluge story) the nobles of Uruk pester the gods and ask them to create one equal in strength to the oppressive Gilgamesh. The gods then ask Aruru the creator to make a counterpart to Gilgamesh:
  

  • Thou, Aruru, didst create [the man];
    Create now his double, ...
    When Aruru heard this,
    A double of Anu she conceived within her.
    Aruru washed her hands,
    Pinched off clay and cast it on the steppe.
    [On the step]pe she created valiant Enkidu.

  A sister composition to the Gilgamesh Epic is the Atrahasis Epic, another literary tradition about the creation and early history of man. As in Enuma elish here too man is created to relieve the gods of heavy work. His creation is described as follows:
  

  • We-ila (a god), who had personality,
    They slaughtered in their assembly.
    From his flesh and blood
    Nintu mixed clay ...
    After she had mixed that clay
    She summoned the Anunnaki, the great gods.
    The Igigi, the great gods,
    Spat upon the clay.
    Mami opened her mouth
    and addressed the great gods,
    "You have commanded me a task, I have completed it;
    You have slaughtered a god together with his personality.
    I have removed your heavy work,
    I have imposed your toil on man."

[Paul2]

After the initial creation in verse one, God placed angels under the leadership of Satan on the earth as caretakers.

Where does the Bible reveal this?

Satan and some of those under his control rebelled against God. This sinning against God resulted in the chaotic conditions described in verse two.

Where does the Bible reveal this?

[Heterodoxus]

After the initial creation in verse one, God placed angels under the leadership of Satan on the earth as caretakers.

Where does the Bible reveal this?

Satan and some of those under his control rebelled against God. This sinning against God resulted in the chaotic conditions described in verse two.

Where does the Bible reveal this?

Catholicism-influenced conjecture?

[myth-one.com]

After the initial creation in verse one, God placed angels under the leadership of Satan on the earth as caretakers.

Satan and some of those under his control rebelled against God. This sinning against God resulted in the chaotic conditions described in verse two.

Where does the Bible reveal this?

Archangel Satan and some of the angels under his authority at some time chose to rebel against God. Why did he rebel? It was a grab for power:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

Although we do not know the exact number under Satan's authority, it was one-third of the total number of angels. Satan and the angels who joined his rebellion against God were exiled from the Kingdom of God and restricted to ruling the earth:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. What time did this occur? I do not know, but it was after verse one because the earth was already in existence. They were cast down to the earth.

How do we know that Lucifer was the earthly caretaker? In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Notice that Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

Satan was given rule over the world and a ruler must be defeated and overthrown! This is one of the reasons Jesus is coming to the earth, to defeat Satan. However, God obviously retained some power to intervene. One intervention begins in Genesis 1:3 when God restores the earth and gives man some dominion.

Man is being groomed to become caretakers of the earth under God's Son after He seizes control of the earth back from Satan. In the original creation the caretakers were created with spiritual bodies which live forever. In the recreation God did not create more spiritual beings and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity. He created a mortal being called man a little lower than the angels:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

The ultimate results of these rebellious angels are the conditions described on the earth in verse two. I draw this conclusion from a parallel with what will happen with man:

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Man chooses to do it his way over Gods -- just as one third of the angels. Under man's rule and rebellion against God, the earth will reach a state of great tribulation:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22)

So sinning and rebellion against the commandments of God leads to chaos. Due to the same reason, sinning by rebelling against God, the good earth as originally created had reached a state of no form, void, and darkness before the Genesis recreation begun in verse three!
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

[myth-one.com]

A few more comments before we (too quickly) exit this important first five chapters:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Instructing Adam and Eve to "replenish the earth" is another indication that the six-day Garden of Eden creation was a re-creation of an earth gone bad. Do not let it reach the same state as it did previously -- Replenish it!

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The enmity part between serpents and women is certainly a given -- know many women who likes snakes? But could the remainder of the verse be a prophesy of Jesus Christ? This verse occurs as God is cursing the serpent.

There will also be enmity between the serpent's offspring and Eve's. Every human ever born is indirectly the offspring of Eve. "It shall bruise thy head," refers to a male offspring of Eve's (his heel) who will bruise the serpent's head or defeat the serpent. This is how one might fight a snake. The serpent will bruise his heel. Serpents are down low on the ground, so it would probably bite one in the foot area. This hints at the crucifixion, as a crucified person's feet are nailed to the cross at the heel. If this male offspring of Eve will bruise the serpent's head, and the offspring's feet are struck to a cross, then the offspring predicted is probably Jesus. Jesus will defeat Satan and provide the path of salvation and eternal life for every human through His sacrifice on the cross. This could be the first biblical prophesy of Jesus.
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes