Initial Discussion and Reading

[Bio-logical]

The purpose of this bible study is to read the bible in a logical way as a narrative and as a religious text that has shaped the practices of those religions that follow it.

This is not a "Christian" bible study, although people of all religious backgrounds are welcome to participate. It is meant to be a study of the bible as a text, to better understand the book in a scholarly manner.

The discussion of origin is outside the scope of the study - we will not be debating whether something is the word of man or god.

Discussions regarding interpretations of the text are entirely allowed and encouraged, this is the main purpose of the discussion.

Discussions regarding implications of different interpretations may arise but should be kept from disintegrating into which is the correct interpretation.

We will be reading according to the Scholar's Plan, a narratively chronological plan to read the bible so that the stories in it take place in order. We will have assigned reading and will move on when the discussion has reached a conclusion or when it involves few participants, at which point we will ask that they continue it in a separate thread.

The readings are based on the King James Version of the Bible, links to the reading will be posted before starting a new section, but participants are welcome to read whichever translation they prefer and are encouraged to discuss differences in translation.

As for our first reading:

I feel it is appropriate to read Genesis 1- 5, which is approximately equal to "5 days" of reading in the plan but I think it holds much to discuss without mixing the flood into it yet. The reading includes creation through the fall of man, including Cain and Abel and everything up to the introduction of Noah and before the causes of the flood. Feel free to past anything that strikes you as you read it, no need to wait for a particular date.

[Bio-logical]

A few more comments before we (too quickly) exit this important first five chapters:

As per the initial agreement, due to your input I believe, we shall move on when it seems appropriate and/or there has been a motion made to do so.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Instructing Adam and Eve to "replenish the earth" is another indication that the six-day Garden of Eden creation was a re-creation of an earth gone bad. Do not let it reach the same state as it did previously -- Replenish it!

After reading the last several posts I will have to side with Myth-One on this issue, the bible does seem to indicate that this is a recreation or at least an improvement upon something already in existence. I would like to ask, however, why it can be assumed that God has existed eternally but the Earth had not? Perhaps both were created at an earlier time and God decided to improve upon the Earth that was dark, formless and void.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The enmity part between serpents and women is certainly a given -- know many women who likes snakes? But could the remainder of the verse be a prophesy of Jesus Christ? This verse occurs as God is cursing the serpent.

There will also be enmity between the serpent's offspring and Eve's. Every human ever born is indirectly the offspring of Eve. "It shall bruise thy head," refers to a male offspring of Eve's (his heel) who will bruise the serpent's head or defeat the serpent. This is how one might fight a snake. The serpent will bruise his heel. Serpents are down low on the ground, so it would probably bite one in the foot area. This hints at the crucifixion, as a crucified person's feet are nailed to the cross at the heel. If this male offspring of Eve will bruise the serpent's head, and the offspring's feet are struck to a cross, then the offspring predicted is probably Jesus. Jesus will defeat Satan and provide the path of salvation and eternal life for every human through His sacrifice on the cross. This could be the first biblical prophesy of Jesus.

This seems like a rather large stretch. "Bruising thy heel" as a reference to crucifixion is a pretty convoluted connection. I think it is meant to be more literally" man will step on you, you will bite man." As far as women not liking snakes I believe that this is more cultural than anything, and I would like to point out that when Jesus is asked how people will recognize his followers he states:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." -- Mark 16:17-18

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." -- Luke 10:19

This would indicate that serpents have nothing to do with crucifixion, they are just bad for people and Jesus is protecting his followers from pain and death, making them immune to poison and giving them he power to heal with their touch... which is a discussion for another day.

[myth-one.com]

This would indicate that serpents have nothing to do with crucifixion, they are just bad for people and Jesus is protecting his followers from pain and death, making them immune to poison and giving them he power to heal with their touch... which is a discussion for another day.

The living creatures called serpents have no association with the crucifixion. The serpent in Genesis is Satan masquerading as a serpent:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. (Matthew 17:20)

Can I move mountains? Sure, given sufficient time, large earth moving equipment, explosives, manpower, and vast amounts of money. Do I believe I can move them otherwise? No. also, you will never find me intentionally near snakes and scorpions or drinking poison. My faith is not that strong. Also, God has always been good to me, rescuing me often. Who am I to intentionally place myself in harm's way to test God?

God placed enmity between the woman and her offspring. That's all of us - men and women. Did not mean to imply that only women fear snakes.

Nonetheless, I was sitting with my four-year-old granddaughter in the doctor's office for her yearly checkup. After several of the usual questions and answers, the doctor asked, "Does she have any known allergies?"

Well, my granddaughter had a elementary understanding of what an allergy was, and I could see she was a thinking. Suddenly, she interrupted the discussion with, "I don't like snakes!"

[myth-one.com]

I would like to ask, however, why it can be assumed that God has existed eternally but the Earth had not? Perhaps both were created at an earlier time and God decided to improve upon the Earth that was dark, formless and void.

I meant to respond to this above -- and forgot. Sorry.

Two worlds are defined in the Bible, the physical earthly world and the heavenly spiritual world. The Bible is written as mankind's "user manual" for life in the physical world. It tells us the best way to live. The Bible tells us that man cannot understand the heavenly world.

The phrase "In the beginning" refers to the physical world in the Bible:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

If God is assumed to have existed eternally as you say, then "In the beginning" in neither of these verses can refer to God's coming into existence.

If God was created from any "beginning" then He cannot have lived eternally. If we can ask what was going on before "in the beginning" and God came into being in the beginning, then God was non-existant before His beginning and the statement that He has existed eternally would be false.

If God has lived eternally and will continue to do so, then He has no beginning and no end. It's one of those heavenly other world things we cannot understand. God knows I do not understand it -- and I've tried!

So in the beginning here refers to the earth, and both (God and the earth) cannot have existed eternally. The earth is finite because it had a beginning. God is infinite as He had no beginning and will have no end.

We can possibly understand our world, we cannot understand the other world. Man has concluded at this time that his world is about 4.56 billion years old. So the first three words of the Bible "In the beginning" refer to the period 4.56 billion years ago according to man's best current estimate. The Bible does not negate that 4.56 billion number! It occurred between verses one and two of Genesis. Yes, dinosaurs did roam the earth sixty-five million years ago!
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[Jayhawker Soule]

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Instructing Adam and Eve to "replenish the earth" is another indication that the six-day Garden of Eden creation was a re-creation of an earth gone bad. Do not let it reach the same state as it did previously -- Replenish it!

After reading the last several posts I will have to side with Myth-One on this issue, the bible does seem to indicate that this is a recreation or at least an improvement upon something already in existence.

Good grief ...

Genesis 1:28

• JPS Torah Commentary
  • God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it; and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all living things that creep on earth."
• The Judaica Press Complete Tanach
  • And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the sky and over all the beasts that tread upon the earth."
• The Schocken Bible [Everett Fox]
  • God blessed them,
    God said to them:
    Bear fruit and be many and fill the earth
    and subdue it!
    Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the heavens, and all living things that crawl about upon the earth!
• Robert Alter
  • And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and conquer it, and hold sway over the fish of the sea and the fowl of the heavens and every beast that crawls upon the earth."
• Richard Elliott Friedman
  • And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and dominate the fish of the sea and the birds of the skies and every animal that creeps on the earth."
• The New International Commentary on the Old Testament
  • God blessed them, saying to them: "Be abundantly fruitful, fill the earth, and subdue it. Exercise dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
• New King James Version
  • Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
• USCCP New American Bible
  • God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
• netbible.com
  • God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it! Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.â€�
• New English Translation of the Septuagint
  • And God blessed them, saying, "Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky and all the cattle and all the earth and all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

There is zero justification for rendering the Hebrew as "replenish". In fact, as can be seen above, not even the NKJV employs this variant. As for the KJV, the Blue Letter Bible: KJV supplies a concordance for the term it chose to translate as 'replenish' here. Unremarkably, no 'replenish' to be found.

Let it go ...

[Paul2]

There is zero justification for rendering the Hebrew as "replenish".

I agree. The same Hebrew word is used in Micah 7:19.

Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. (KJV)

[Paul2]

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. What time did this occur? I do not know, but it was after verse one because the earth was already in existence. They were cast down to the earth.

We are not told anywhere in the Bible that Satan and his followers caused the condition of the earth mentioned in Gen 1:2 and there is no evidence that Satan was exiled to the earth prior to the creation of Adam. Satan is found in the presence of God in the book of Job and Revelation makes it clear that Satan was to be cast out of heaven to the inhabited earth.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon perceived that it was cast into the earth, it persecutes the woman who brought forth the male. (CLNT)

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is zero justification for rendering the Hebrew as "replenish".

I agree. The same Hebrew word is used in Micah 7:19.

The Hebrew word in question is male' (i.e., fill) not kabash (i.e., subdue), the latter being the term found in both verses.

Let's move on.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gen. 3:16 ... And he shall rule over you.

Sarna writes:

• It is quite clear from the description of woman in 2:18,23 that the ideal situation, which hitherto existed, was the absolute equality of the sexes. The new state of male dominance is regarded as an aspect of the deterioration in the human condition that resulted from the defiance of divine will.

Note that this can be viewed in one of two ways:

1. as an imposed punishment, or
2. as a natural consequence of the division of labor mandated by life outside of Eden, much as is the toil imposed in Adam.

That sexual equality was/is the "ideal" must have been a noteworthy assertion to the ancients of the levant.

Parenthetically (also courtesy of Sarna) the Hebrew term for the toil promised Adam is `itsavon, the same term used for the pains of childbirth promised Eve in Gen. 3:16.

[Paul2]

The Hebrew word in question is male' (i.e., fill) not kabash (i.e., subdue), the latter being the term found in both verses.

Yes. I was wrong. It means fill.

[Jayhawker Soule]

The phrase "In the beginning" refers to the physical world in the Bible: ...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

You are welcome to simply ignore or deny that this translation of the Hebrew is debatable and, in fact, not found in today's Torah/Tanakh, but doing so hardly enhances the credibility of your position. I suggest that we simply acknowledge the lack of scholarly consensus on the rendering of Genesis 1:1-4 and move on.