Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect

[Greatest I Am]

Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect?

In my search for God, I began as a non believer. That being said, I was still driven to reason with believers to see if they were on the right road to knowing God.

After about 36 years, I gave up on arguments and discussions of God with believers because they could not deal with my objections as to why their God was less than perfect.

I basically began to have internal discussions with myself because in most cases I could reconcile may own points for and against God better than believer could. Kind of a strange position for sure as a non believer but I created a paradigm or world view from a starting point that God had to be and that if there was a God at all, all that was had to be perfect.
No self respecting God would have it otherwise.

To make this paradigm work, I had to reconcile the existence of evil and the bad things that I saw around me as well. Not an easy task but I did it.

I read a number of Bibles and Holy books while I was seeking God and found some wisdom and knowledge within these works and have a grudging respect for all of them while at the same time, not reading them literally. In the case of the Bible, it is obvious that it should not be read literally. How can one do so when it begins with talking animals and ends with a seven headed monster. God would not use impossible and silly props.

Bibles have to be judged on the moral position they take or show.

Since the Christian Bible shows a distinct lack of justice or morals in dealing with women, Gays and slaves, there is enough ambiguity and injustice to discard it as a literal document and even perhaps as a moral one.

It may not have been 3000 years ago but it is certainly immoral by today's standards.

It did help to lead me to God but then I do not read it literally or believe it's characters to be real. They are and were always mean to be archetypes.


There are some passages that can and should be read literally because they apply to the reality that I now know exists for us all.

For example.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

At about that time, after my paradigm seemed to cover all the bases, I forced my apotheosis and found God.
He confirmed my views and urged me to now think more demographically.

The pleasure and pain of the passing grade from the greatest teacher were worth all the years of mental toil.
Then the toil really began. That being, trying to convince others, with word alone, that the God I found is real.

There is evidence for the reality of God. This evidence you have to recognize and I cannot make you see it. You have to recognize it for yourself and I am pleased to point it out to you. The fist sign of God is all around us. Perfection. If you can get even a glimmer of it then we can reason together. If all you see is imperfection, just because there is evil and sin in the mix, then I cannot help with your apotheosis or rapprochement to God.

I know this sounds arrogant and brash but I cannot help that. I do have some arrogance now thanks to my apotheosis. Who could not be after touching the mind of God?

If you have found your own God in some book or Bible then enjoy Him. If you have doubts then I invite you to look at the God I found to see if some of your doubts can be assuaged.

When born, we can say that you were as perfect as nature and evolution could produce with the DNA at hand. You may or may not had had flaws but this would not negate the fact that nature and evolution did the best it could and that you were therefore as perfect as you could be. From that great beginning, you evolved your perfection to a higher state over time and that that path is constant till your death.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

My question for you then is this.

Do you recognize that you are as perfect as you can be today, while always moving to a more perfect state over time?

Regards
DL

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...Then the toil really began. That being, trying to convince others, with word alone, that the God I found is real.

You'll have your work cut out for you there. Trying to convince someone there's something there without showing that something is there is a hard row to hoe.

There is evidence for the reality of God. This evidence you have to recognize and I cannot make you see it. You have to recognize it for yourself and I am pleased to point it out to you.

You know better'n that. You make a claim, we challenge, and then we all go to cussing back and forth

The fist sign of God is all around us. Perfection. If you can get even a glimmer of it then we can reason together.

If you already disagree about why I don't see perfection, then we're stuck. I don't presuppose you can't show perfection, why do you presuppose I can't show imperfection?

It's hardly a perfect world when humans are warring with one another.

If all you see is imperfection, just because there is evil and sin in the mix, then I cannot help with your apotheosis or rapprochement to God.

Can you show your favored god has an opinion on what constitutes evil or sin? How does evil and sin figure into a "perfect" world?

I know this sounds arrogant and brash but I cannot help that. I do have some arrogance now thanks to my apotheosis. Who could not be after touching the mind of God?

Can you show your exerience is actually touching the mind of your preferred god? Or is it more along the lines of "I really, really believe"?

When born, we can say that you were as perfect as nature and evolution could produce with the DNA at hand. You may or may not had had flaws but this would not negate the fact that nature and evolution did the best it could and that you were therefore as perfect as you could be. From that great beginning, you evolved your perfection to a higher state over time and that that path is constant till your death.

I'm far from perfect. Those who claim they are perfect have just pointed out their one flaw - inability to see reality.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Can you show your preferred god knows anything?

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Can you show your god speaks? What's the difference between hearing a god and hearing voices?

Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I belong to no god that can't be shown to exist. Your claim here is as empty as the hole in my head.

Do you recognize that you are as perfect as you can be today, while always moving to a more perfect state over time?

"As I can be"? That is the only way it can be. Of course I strive for a more perfect state, but the fact remains there's always room for improvement. I am as perfect as I can be today because it is today.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

To make this paradigm work, I had to reconcile the existence of evil and the bad things that I saw around me as well. Not an easy task but I did it.

Evil doesn't exist physically. It's not a force like say, gravity. It's an OPINION; a point of view. Even if it is an opinion that we all happen to share, it's still an opinion. Bad is like beauty and ugliness. It's a point of view. If I have a terrible incurable disease and I die before I can give it to the rest of the population, that may be bad for me but GOOD for everyone else. To the universe however, it's just an event. No judgement required.

Since the Christian Bible shows a distinct lack of justice or morals in dealing with women, Gays and slaves, there is enough ambiguity and injustice to discard it as a literal document and even perhaps as a moral one.

It may not have been 3000 years ago but it is certainly immoral by today's standards.

Again, morality is a matter of opinion. That's why it's changeable. Morality is not immutable, like say the laws of physics. It's a human point of view.

There is evidence for the reality of God. This evidence you have to recognize and I cannot make you see it. You have to recognize it for yourself and I am pleased to point it out to you. The fist sign of God is all around us. Perfection. If you can get even a glimmer of it then we can reason together. If all you see is imperfection, just because there is evil and sin in the mix, then I cannot help with your apotheosis or rapprochement to God.

Once again you see. all a matter of OPINION. Perfection... imperfection, human points of view. Nothing but OPINION. And opinions differ. I am not knocking opinions, I certainly have my own. But at least I understand them for what they are. OPINIONS. Right or wrong according to WHO? Human societies make laws to protect the majority of it's citizens from the harmful intentions of a minority of it's citizens. Human laws are changeable however, and tend to work based on majority opinion. I'm not knocking the system, just pointing out that human laws are not immutable. And that is why humans tend to insert GOD into the equation. God wants this and God demands that. But this is merely a method for promoting one group of opinions as superior to another group of opinion. And it's why, as you pointed out, standards of morality can and do change over the centuries. During the period in which the Bible was written, slavery wasn't considered evil at all. It was taken for granted as a fact of life. But now, centuries later, we consider it wrong and evil. Opinions do change. You are of the opinion that God is evident. But the only thing really evident, is that you and I and the universe we exist in actually DO EXIST. An invisible unknowable Being, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, who exists eternally and can create matter with a word, may be obvious to YOU. But that's just your OPINION.

[Greatest I Am]

"As I can be"? That is the only way it can be. Of course I strive for a more perfect state, but the fact remains there's always room for improvement. I am as perfect as I can be today because it is today.

Exactly. Evolving perfection must have a place to evolve to.

I know your views on God but am more curious as to your extending your evolving perceptions of perfection.

What do you think Darwin found on the Galapagos Islands. A perfectly evolving system or an imperfect system?

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

[quote="

Duplicate.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

You are of the opinion that God is evident. But the only thing really evident, is that you and I and the universe we exist in actually DO EXIST. An invisible unknowable Being, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, who exists eternally and can create matter with a word, may be obvious to YOU. But that's just your OPINION.

I basically agree with all you wrote except this.

The God you describe I do not know or want.
The God I know has no miracles and no hell as It's base.

The miracle working super God you describe is It with all the attributes that man has mistakenly saddled it with. That God never existed as far as I know.

Regards
DL

[JBlack]

The God you describe I do not know or want.
The God I know has no miracles and no hell as It's base.

The miracle working super God you describe is It with all the attributes that man has mistakenly saddled it with. That God never existed as far as I know.

So who is your God and how would you describe Him?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 4:

Exactly. Evolving perfection must have a place to evolve to.
I know your views on God but am more curious as to your extending your evolving perceptions of perfection.
What do you think Darwin found on the Galapagos Islands. A perfectly evolving system or an imperfect system?

An imperfect system, due to the very nature of the struggle for life. I consider it more perfect that a life doesn't die, but I understand the argument about why it must. My point is that one man's perfection is another's discontent.

Why did you disregard the rest of my response?

I'd dare say because you can only offer an opinion about your god, and have no way of showing that opinion is correct.

We can all make claims regarding what we consider a perfect god, or a perfect creation, but none can show their god possesses favored traits. If we find some form of perfection there's still no way to know if this is the product of a god, or of our own perception.

I'll tell you now, for every instance of perfection you can find, I can find an instance of imperfection. And none of these can be shown to be the product of a god.

Arguments about perfection or imperfection are based solely on our human understanding, and throwing a god into the mix solves nothing unless one can show that god actually exists, and has acted to create a given state.

[Greatest I Am]

The God you describe I do not know or want.
The God I know has no miracles and no hell as It's base.

The miracle working super God you describe is It with all the attributes that man has mistakenly saddled it with. That God never existed as far as I know.

So who is your God and how would you describe Him?

My signature says it all. The dictionary does the hard part.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

From Post 4:

Exactly. Evolving perfection must have a place to evolve to.
I know your views on God but am more curious as to your extending your evolving perceptions of perfection.
What do you think Darwin found on the Galapagos Islands. A perfectly evolving system or an imperfect system?

An imperfect system, due to the very nature of the struggle for life. I consider it more perfect that a life doesn't die, but I understand the argument about why it must. My point is that one man's perfection is another's discontent.

Why did you disregard the rest of my response?

I'd dare say because you can only offer an opinion about your god, and have no way of showing that opinion is correct.

We can all make claims regarding what we consider a perfect god, or a perfect creation, but none can show their god possesses favored traits. If we find some form of perfection there's still no way to know if this is the product of a god, or of our own perception.

I'll tell you now, for every instance of perfection you can find, I can find an instance of imperfection. And none of these can be shown to be the product of a god.

Arguments about perfection or imperfection are based solely on our human understanding, and throwing a god into the mix solves nothing unless one can show that god actually exists, and has acted to create a given state.

I can no more do that than people who have tried for 6000 years.
That is why I wanted your view of our natural state, given by God or not.

I see perfection at work. You do not.
Darwin did find evolving perfection.

I ignored the rest of your other post because there was no place to go with a reply.
If you think that there was more there than I saw, please restate.

Regards
DL