Reading 2 - Genesis 6-11:9

[Bio-logical]

I feel it is appropriate to post the next reading assignment. Remember that the discussion on the previous one may continue but our goal is to read the bible so I am going to keep moving. I have started a new thread for organizational purposes and will continue to do so for the remainder of the study barring any suggestions.

The reading is Genesis 6- 11:9

Flood
The Daughters of Men: Gen 6:1-8
Building the Ark: Gen 6:9-8:22
Noah Commences the Human race again: Gen 9:1-28
The progeny of Noah: Gen 10:1-32
Babel/Nations
Mans pride forms separatism and the nations while loosing a unifying language: Gen 11:1-9

One addition I would like to make is that I found this site that has several questions about each chapter you may want to keep in mind while reading.

[Cathar1950]

The other aspect of the reading I think deserves discussion is that of the tower of Babel.

Why would God look at the accomplishment of his creations and seek to hinder it by confusing them with multiple languages?
Any thoughts?

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. (Genesis 11:1)

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they began to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (Genesis 11:4-6)

Why was God concerned? If they could accomplish this, they might be able to accomplish anything they imagined. So what? Well, man can imagine some horrible things and the six-thousand-year plan for mankind had only begun.

For example, what if man had reached a state of development such that he produced nuclear weapons in 945 instead of 1945. What might have happened? Man would have the means to destroy himself and the earth a thousand years before God's six-thousand-year plan called for that possibility. Jesus will return for the elect's sake just in time to prevent this total destruction. The "elect" are the Christians. Man was too far ahead of schedule. Why? Because they all spoke a common language. They did not have the confusion imposed by multiple languages which we have today. What did God do?

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (Genesis 11:7)

It was brilliant! Suppose you are in a group of one thousand people who all understand and speak English. Suddenly, eight hundred chosen at random cannot understand or speak English. Perhaps two hundred understand and speak French, another two hundred Spanish, another two hundred German, and another two hundred Japanese. What would be the effect? Instead of having one group of a thousand there would soon be five competing groups of two hundred. Each group would believe they were the only sane group as the others spoke gibberish, or babel. That is exactly what occurred:

So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:8-9)

God introduced foreign languages into the world and this worked as a separator which divided mankind into many different, competing groups. It was a case of divide and conquer. Today there remain problems due to language whenever multiple countries work on one project. Anytime translations are required there is a risk of mistranslation. Even if there are no translation errors, the effort requires energy and time which could be applied directly to the project if all spoke one language.

Most, if not all, of the translations of the original scriptures into our Bibles of today contain errors! This would not be the case if there had always been one common language throughout the world. With one common world language there would never have been any need to translate the original scriptures as inspired by God, and consequently there would be no translation errors! When will this situation be corrected? When Jesus returns the second time, all will return to a single language:

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent. (Zephaniah 3:9)

Incredible, huh?

I don't know if incredible is the right word, unbelievable and wrong might be better as it hardly fits how languages evolved.
All that justification and rationalization for something that really didn't happen;

[myth-one.com]

I don't know if incredible is the right word, unbelievable and wrong might be better as it hardly fits how languages evolved.
All that justification and rationalization for something that really didn't happen;

Gee, that's a convincing argument.

But this is a "Bible Study" of the Bible -- not whether or not it happened.

Can you show any evidence from the book being studied that contradicts my post?
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

[Cathar1950]

I don't know if incredible is the right word, unbelievable and wrong might be better as it hardly fits how languages evolved.
All that justification and rationalization for something that really didn't happen;

Gee, that's a convincing argument.

But this is a "Bible Study" of the Bible -- not whether or not it happened.

Can you show any evidence from the book being studied that contradicts my post?
________________
Christian Filicide?: All The Dead Innocent Children
Short Article: The Blame Game
Short Article: America's Heroes

When you suppose it really happened and you claim it is incredible and briliant then you went beyond the story line.

Instead of having one group of a thousand there would soon be five competing groups of two hundred. Each group would believe they were the only sane group as the others spoke gibberish, or babel. That is exactly what occurred:

Man was too far ahead of schedule. Why? Because they all spoke a common language. They did not have the confusion imposed by multiple languages which we have today. What did God do?

How is man to far ahead?

For example, what if man had reached a state of development such that he produced nuclear weapons in 945 instead of 1945.

Given we have not blown ourselves up maybe mankind could be farther along in other areas if they could communicate. You took a Bible study and turned it into a little sermon.

[myth-one.com]

6:5-7 -- the supreme Deity within Judaism (hereinafter "the LORD/God")

In Genesis 6:5-7, the word "God" is used once and "Lord" twice. The character "J" does not even appear in those verses, let alone any reference to anything Jewish.

1:1 -- the supreme tribal-national spiritual entity of Israel; i.e., the version of the God of gods taught and worshiped within Judaism, (�ֱלֹהִ֑י� ο θεός, hereinafter "God") purportedly "created" (בָּרָ� εποίησεν shaped, made) the universe and our world, including its objects and both its human and nonhuman inhabitants.

How do you get the above from Genesis 1:1?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Are you claiming that Genesis 1:1 as in the King James Version is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew?

God will select the seed of Abram to become His "chosen people" later on in Genesis. Abram's name will be changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5. God made the Old Testament covenant with Abraham. Abraham's son Isaac later had twin sons named Jacob and Esau. Jacob's name was changed to Israel in Genesis 35:10. God then renewed the covenant with Israel in Genesis 35:11-12. Israel had twelve sons which became twelve tribes known collectively as the children of Israel.

Perhaps at that time you could claim that the "Children of Israel" were God's chosen people. Nonetheless, that does not exclude anyone from worshiping that same God. God created all mankind, not only subsets of mankind.

There is no separate Jewish, Christian, or Muslim God. The God in Genesis 1:1 is worshiped by the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and possibly others. The God written about in the Bible is not only the God of the Jews, He is the God of all mankind.

[Heterodoxus]

6:5-7 -- the supreme Deity within Judaism (hereinafter "the LORD/God")

In Genesis 6:5-7, the word "God" is used once and "Lord" twice. The character "J" does not even appear in those verses, let alone any reference to anything Jewish.

"The character J'"? To what are you referring? That's there's no "J" in the Hebrew alphabet, and "Y" is transliterated as "J" in English? And where did you see this "J" character in my posting?

1:1 -- the supreme tribal-national spiritual entity of Israel; i.e., the version of the God of gods taught and worshiped within Judaism, (�ֱלֹהִ֑י� ο θεός, hereinafter "God") purportedly "created" (בָּרָ� εποίησεν shaped, made) the universe and our world, including its objects and both its human and nonhuman inhabitants.

How do you get the above from Genesis 1:1? Is there something incorrect in this definition of "God" in GEN 1:1? Is there some other explanation for the reading "In the beginning God created ....?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Are you claiming that Genesis 1:1 as in the King James Version is a mistranslation of the original Hebrew? If I was, then I'd so claim.

God will select the seed of Abram to become His "chosen people" later on in Genesis. Abram's name will be changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5. God made the Old Testament covenant with Abraham. Abraham's son Isaac later had twin sons named Jacob and Esau. Jacob's name was changed to Israel in Genesis 35:10. God then renewed the covenant with Israel in Genesis 35:11-12. Israel had twelve sons which became twelve tribes known collectively as the children of Israel. Thank you for this unnecessary and unsolicited analysis. How about we reserve comment on the cited chapters until we get to those chapters? Please, try to stay on-point?

Perhaps at that time you could claim that the "Children of Israel" were God's chosen people [And why should I make claim of something when the Judeo-Christian Bible so claims without my help? And why do I need for you to suggest to me when to make claims?]. Nonetheless, that does not exclude anyone from worshiping that same God. God created all mankind, not only subsets of mankind[Rhetorical and subjective].

There is no separate Jewish, Christian, or Muslim God. The God in Genesis 1:1 is worshiped by the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and possibly others. [Agreed] The God written about in the Bible is not only the God of the Jews [correct, Biblegod is the one "God" worshiped by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Santarians], He is the God of all mankind [rhetorical, subjective, and Pollyanna, if not Utopian].

[myth-one.com]

When you suppose it really happened and you claim it is incredible and briliant then you went beyond the story line.

I dunno? I'll rephrase, Ok? If anyone wanted to hinder a large group of similar humans for whatever reason, an incredible and brilliant way to succeed in that effort would be to interrupt their communications via multiple languages.

How is man to far ahead?

God thought their ability to build the tower was too far ahead at that time. That would mean they were too advanced in construction, building technology, materials, architecture, measurement, math, etc.

Given we have not blown ourselves up maybe mankind could be farther along in other areas if they could communicate.

But we are prepared to blow ourselves up. Most great leaps in knowledge come from military defense technology. Airplanes, submarines, missles, sattellites, communications, explosives, medicines, etc. The internet communications over which we "debate" was originally created by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).

You took a Bible study and turned it into a little sermon.

Honestly, I was responding to the following questions:

Why would God look at the accomplishment of his creations and seek to hinder it by confusing them with multiple languages?
Any thoughts?

I noticed the following verses from this week's assigned reading:

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they began to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Bio-logical's question: "Why would God look at the accomplishment of his creations and seek to hinder it by confusing them with multiple languages?"

The answer: God sought to hinder the accomplishments of his creations because if they could build such a tower, then "nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

The Bible states that under mankind's dominion, the earth will reach a time of great tribulation:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So mankind can imagine some horrific things. Given the state of man's accomplishments during the Tower of Babel period, God knew this time of great tribulation would be reached too quickly. God had to intervene to save mankind from destroying himself prematurely.

The solution:

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

God's intervention at the Tower of Babel lengthened mankind's existence!

Not preaching, just doing the assignment.

[Cathar1950]

God will select the seed of Abram to become His "chosen people" later on in Genesis. Abram's name will be changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5. God made the Old Testament covenant with Abraham. Abraham's son Isaac later had twin sons named Jacob and Esau. Jacob's name was changed to Israel in Genesis 35:10. God then renewed the covenant with Israel in Genesis 35:11-12. Israel had twelve sons which became twelve tribes known collectively as the children of Israel.

Perhaps at that time you could claim that the "Children of Israel" were God's chosen people. Nonetheless, that does not exclude anyone from worshiping that same God. God created all mankind, not only subsets of mankind.

There is no separate Jewish, Christian, or Muslim God. The God in Genesis 1:1 is worshiped by the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and possibly others. The God written about in the Bible is not only the God of the Jews, He is the God of all mankind.

The God in the Bible has evolved. You are projecting your view of God or at least the later "Jewish, Christian, or Muslim God" backwards.
Here you seem to be getting ahead of the stories as you project your own myth back into the story.
If I remember correctly, YHWH or the Lord is called by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob El or even El Shaddi. El Shadi as in the Shadi gods, demon, spirits or Devastation as in Deveastation as the name of one of the gods or spirits.

Some might just be bragging about their gods.
I was reading where a word meaning shadowy, cloudy or misty was translated as “all mighty�, who knows.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Mea ... addai.html

Shaddai
Shaddai is a divine name but not a creation name. It is first used in Genesis 17:1 where YHWH introduces Himself to Abram, saying "I am El Shaddai."
God commands Abram to be blameless and promises him the covenant. Then He changes Abram's name to Abraham.

The meaning of Shaddai is difficult to establish. Septuagint and Vulgate say Almighty (pantokrator and omnipotens) but that's probably more out of enthusiasm than out of sound etymology (it really doesn't mean that). Some say that this name is derived from the verb (shadad 2331), meaning to destroy, hence: My Destroyer. Others furiously refute this because this meaning would go against the nature of God. Isaiah, however, seems to be in the camp of the first when he writes, "Wail, for the day of YHWH is near. It will come as destruction (shad) from Shaddai (13:6)"

Those of the latter camp suggest that Shaddai comes from sadu, a word meaning mountain in the Babylonian (Akkadian) language that Abram spoke. El Of The Mountain, or El of the Gathering

Elohist also contrubuted to the stories as in "E" and guess what, ancient Hebrew doesn't have an "e" either.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist[/quote]

Nature of the Elohist text
In this source God's name is always presented as Elohim until the revelation of God's name to Moses, after which God is referred to as Yahweh. E treats God as a human-like figure, capable of regret, and appearing in person at events.
E has a particular fascination for traditions concerning biblical Israel and its heroes such as Joshua and Ephraim (a son of Joseph, and the tribe to which Israel's king belonged). E supports Israel against Judah, in the case of Shechem claiming that it was purchased rather than won via a massacre.
E supports the Levitical priests of Shiloh (who were not descended from Aaron), who were not given authority in Israel, both against the new priesthood set up in Israel, and against the priesthood of Judah (which priests were descended from Aaron). E tries to show Aaron and his supporters in a bad light, for example via the story of the golden calf (which also happened to be the symbol of the new version of the religion set up in Israel).

Contrasted with the Jahwist
Abram and Isaac
The Elohist's story appears to begin after Abram has begun migration, with the wife vs. sister story that is also present in the Jahwist tale. The first major story is that of the sacrifice of Isaac. In the Elohist work, Isaac does not ever appear again after this story, and the story appears to imply that Isaac was sacrificed. However, the Jahwist does not mention this tale, although the Jahwist mentions Isaac extensively, and thus when the redactor combined their writings, Isaac's continued presence would need to be explained. Text attributed to the redactor presents a literal scape-goat, allowing Isaac to live, but nevertheless, an early tradition recorded in a midrash still preserves a version of the tale in which Isaac was killed.[citation needed] Understandably, the next tale in the Elohist is of other children for Abram.

When you suppose it really happened and you claim it is incredible and briliant then you went beyond the story line.

I dunno? I'll rephrase, Ok? If anyone wanted to hinder a large group of similar humans for whatever reason, an incredible and brilliant way to succeed in that effort would be to interrupt their communications via multiple languages.

I don’t think the story is all about what a great idea it was. That sounds more like spirtualizing the mundane elements in a story. It is a myth explaining why we have all theses languages or even the pride of humanity. I am guessing it had more to do with their overlords the Babylonians or even Assyrians and my have actually been borrowed and given an anti-Babylon slur of sorts.
Older story:
http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/ ... _babel.htm

The first city mentioned in the Bible as being among the cities of Nimrod is Babel. And in fact the city’s name as well as the Tower of Babel account is recorded outside of the Bible.
Fragments of an Assyrian tablet were discovered at Nineveh by Austen Henry Layard during the middle of the 18th century that closely parallel the Biblical account. The artifacts now reside in the British Museum (registration number K.3657) and reads as follows: “his heart was evil against the father of all the gods . . . Babylon was brought into subjection, small and great alike. He confounded their speech . . . their strong palace (tower) all the days they built; to their strong place in the night He completely made an end . . . In His anger His word was poured out . . . to scatter aboard He set his face, He gave this command, and their counsel was confused. . .He saw them and the earth. . . of stopping not . . . Bitterly they wept at Babi(l). . very much they grieved . . at their misfortune.�

It didn’t happen so there is no real reason to go into other reasons why God did it that go beyond the story even with the final redaction that have been handed down to us.

How is man to far ahead?

God thought their ability to build the tower was too far ahead at that time. That would mean they were too advanced in construction, building technology, materials, architecture, measurement, math, etc.

See this is what I mean by adding elements and preaching. Given it didn’t happen we really don’t need to go into some speculation about what you present view of God suspects. They might be ahead by not building it and wasting their time on such impossible nonsense as building a tower to the heavens.

Given we have not blown ourselves up maybe mankind could be farther along in other areas if they could communicate.

But we are prepared to blow ourselves up. Most great leaps in knowledge come from military defense technology. Airplanes, submarines, missles, sattellites, communications, explosives, medicines, etc. The internet communications over which we "debate" was originally created by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). ?

Irrelevant I read that it is pornography that is leading the way .

You took a Bible study and turned it into a little sermon.

Honestly, I was responding to the following questions:

Why would God look at the accomplishment of his creations and seek to hinder it by confusing them with multiple languages?
Any thoughts?

I noticed the following verses from this week's assigned reading:

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they began to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Bio-logical's question: "Why would God look at the accomplishment of his creations and seek to hinder it by confusing them with multiple languages?"

The answer: God sought to hinder the accomplishments of his creations because if they could build such a tower, then "nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

The Bible states that under mankind's dominion, the earth will reach a time of great tribulation:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So mankind can imagine some horrific things. Given the state of man's accomplishments during the Tower of Babel period, God knew this time of great tribulation would be reached too quickly. God had to intervene to save mankind from destroying himself prematurely.

The solution:

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

God's intervention at the Tower of Babel lengthened mankind's existence!

Not preaching, just doing the assignment.

There is nothing worse then believers projecting their dispensational outline on an old story as you try and make it relevant to our beliefs.
The one thing we should avoid is turning the story into some Christian myth the other is turning it into a first century Jewish one for it was begone long after some of the Cannonites became Isriaelites with a long history of creations or inventions, editing and redaction up to and after the exile.
For one thing you are adding rationalzations to a myth pretending it really happened with some lame claim that it wasn’t time yet for mankind to imagine anything. God was being slow to anger and such offering us just a little more time to accept Jesus in our hearts.

It isn’t like there is some Fatherly God out there always the same and every time we read the ancient stories they are all pointing to that God. If we are going to really understand how the stories were first written and read we need to understand the concepts of God or gods then not now. Otherwise this whole Bible study becomes a devotional reading.


I can see a purpose or purposes (they may very well be more then one if there is one)or reasons for our gods, or even God, as an ultimate concept sometimes expressed by believers with their limited, necessarily flawed, esoteric interpretations.

But why should we believe the writings or even the readings, interpretations and reinterpretations all while they (Our modern Bible believer) are really retelling their own new stories?

[myth-one.com]

Cathar1950, your last post was an example of "babbling," right?

It finally hit me. We're discussing the Tower of Babel, and you gave an example. Good idea.

[myth-one.com]

The God written about in the Bible is not only the God of the Jews [correct, Biblegod is the one "God" worshiped by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Santarians], He is the God of all mankind [rhetorical, subjective, and Pollyanna, if not Utopian].

Then I'm confused as to why you deem it necessary to describe God in Genesis as:

6:5-7 -- the supreme Deity within Judaism (hereinafter "the LORD/God")

While your statement is true, it seems to neglect or at least minimize all non-Jews from this God.

1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2) In the beginning the supreme Deity within Judaism created the heaven and the earth.

Thes two statements can both be true, but to me they are not equivalent.

Actually, there was no Judaism in the beginning. The author's point of view thus comes into play. The author, Moses, might have written Genesis from his people's point of view at the time he wrote -- so that "God" referred to the supreme Deity within Judaism.

But if God inspired the writers of the Bible, then Genesis was written from God's point of view through Moses, in which case the God referred to is for all mankind.

[Cathar1950]

The God written about in the Bible is not only the God of the Jews [correct, Biblegod is the one "God" worshiped by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Santarians], He is the God of all mankind [rhetorical, subjective, and Pollyanna, if not Utopian].

Then I'm confused as to why you deem it necessary to describe God in Genesis as:

6:5-7 -- the supreme Deity within Judaism (hereinafter "the LORD/God")

While your statement is true, it seems to neglect or at least minimize all non-Jews from this God.

1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2) In the beginning the supreme Deity within Judaism created the heaven and the earth.

Thes two statements can both be true, but to me they are not equivalent.

Actually, there was no Judaism in the beginning. The author's point of view thus comes into play. The author, Moses, might have written Genesis from his people's point of view at the time he wrote -- so that "God" referred to the supreme Deity within Judaism.

But if God inspired the writers of the Bible, then Genesis was written from God's point of view through Moses, in which case the God referred to is for all mankind.

You have a lot of ifs there. Of course the Jews didn't exists yet and neither did their god. He had not evolved yet. The God was El before He became Yahweh.
The language confusion didn't happen and God or the gods didn't really act.
Moses didn't write it either. It was written some 400 to 900 yeas after Moses was suppose to have been around. The messed stories and it isn't because one is from the point of view of God.