Do you Loose your Freewill in Heaven?

[Timeaisis]

If, assuming that when you enter into heaven, all your troubles cease to exist and you co-exist with other god-like people in perfect harmony, and also with your true, loving God, what happens to your 'soul'? I'm not asking this in the sense of your metaphysical being or your "innermost" heart, but your own personality, opinions, and essentially, your freewill. If heaven is a perfect place, with no sin, and eternal happiness, wouldn't all have to loose their basic freedom for it to function?

I'm not saying I believe you loose your freewill in heaven, but I'm wondering what others think on this topic. If all is perfect in heaven, then might your personal freedom be extinguished for you to live in perfect harmony? As human nature implies, with free will comes sin. Some theorize that freewill is actually absent in heaven, but if this is the case, I would not desire to go to such a place. For, wouldn't the lack of free will imply that you have no opinions or feelings. No good nor evil would exist, thusly you would neither be 'happy' nor 'sad', as they are both truly objective things.

Is heaven such a place where everyone is uniform, peace is eternally present, and everyone is simply the same. If everyone is alike, then can you actually call yourself happy in the first place. Wouldn't you co-exist as one body, without a difference of feeling. If there is no sadness, I don't think there is a happiness either.

Is heaven really this way?

[scorpia]

Good question. It happens to be one I have thought a bit on myself, after playing with the thought around with my mind. I have some theories, which debaters can go ahead and disagree with to their heart's content, but in any case, here are my thoughts on the matter;

If heaven is a perfect place, with no sin, and eternal happiness, wouldn't all have to loose their basic freedom for it to function?

I'm presuming you mean that by existing in a place where there is no sin, you cannot choose to sin, thus you cannot have free will since you cannot choose to do absolutely everything, including sin. Correct me if I got that wrong.

Yet right here on this life on Earth I already come across situations where I lack such free will, regarding not having the choice to sin. There may be some law which though I can go ahead and break if I had the power to do it or get away with it, yet I do not, and cannot make the choice to do so, even if I have the opportunity.

I tend to view heaven in the same light as those times, and is this means heaven does not allow free will, then those I mentioned don't allow me free will either, and since love is pretty much the driving force for all of this, or humanity, or whatever, them so long as I am human, I will never have free will anyway. If I love someone, I cannot choose to do anything against them.

Perhaps realm with such a lack of sin comes from the golden rule, moreso that the rule leading to it. Just a thought

Someone I think disagreed with this point of view I think but didn't voice out why.

[mujahid263]

If heaven is a perfect place, with no sin, and eternal happiness, wouldn't all have to loose their basic freedom for it to function?

No, I don't think so. Mainly because since God chooses who goes to heaven, God won't pick people who'll want to screw things up. And also, Satan is the one supposed to tempt mankind to do sin when they do have freewill. And last I heard, he'll be far aways from heaven.

As human nature implies, with free will comes sin.

It isn't. It's supposed to be Satan's temptations.

[JamesBrown]

since God chooses who goes to heaven, God won't pick people who'll want to screw things up.

Oh? He created a Heaven on Earth (Garden of Eden) and 100% of the population screwed things up. Do we trust God to do it a second time?

Satan is the one supposed to tempt mankind to do sin when they do have freewill.

And who tempted Lucifer to sin?

And last I heard, he'll be far aways from heaven.

If removing Satan from the equation is all it takes to keep free-will beings from sinning, then why not keep Satan from earth? If Heaven will be both Satan-less and sin-less, then why not make Earth Satan-less?

I've asked before, and yet to see a response: What can God do in Heaven that he can't do on Earth? Wouldn't you like to see a Paradise in this world, for all people to enjoy, not just the chosen handul who know the secret password?

[mujahid263]

Oh? He created a Heaven on Earth (Garden of Eden) and 100% of the population screwed things up. Do we trust God to do it a second time?

I don't beleive Adam and Eve were on Earth. And as for Satan, he was banished to Hell later, before this Satan was the one who tempted 100% to sin. Adam and Eve were put on Earth as a lighter punishment in return for their sin. From there they had to earn there way to heaven, with Satan always there to tempt them and there children.

BTW, I'm Muslim and I don't think the Christian idea of Adam and Eve is the same.

And who tempted Lucifer to sin?

Nobody tempted Satan to sin, he chose to sin after disagreeing with God.

If removing Satan from the equation is all it takes to keep free-will beings from sinning, then why not keep Satan from earth?

Because this life is a test.

What can God do in Heaven that he can't do on Earth?

Absolutly nothing. God is all-powerful.

Wouldn't you like to see a Paradise in this world, for all people to enjoy, not just the chosen handul who know the secret password?

I wouldn't have minded that but God seemed to have a different plan in mind. And as for the 'password', it isn't secret.

[jddlwlr]

I do not think that you loose your free-will when you enter heaven. When you enter heaven, i think we will see all the good, we will see God, and all this will be so incredable that we wont even want to sin. we will see how great perfection is and we wont want to go back to imperfection(does that make sense or am i getting way off?)

-Jedd

[JamesBrown]

I don't beleive Adam and Eve were on Earth. And as for Satan, he was banished to Hell later, before this Satan was the one who tempted 100% to sin. Adam and Eve were put on Earth as a lighter punishment in return for their sin. From there they had to earn there way to heaven, with Satan always there to tempt them and there children.

BTW, I'm Muslim and I don't think the Christian idea of Adam and Eve is the same.

Are these orthodox Muslim beliefs? I've not heard these ideas about Adam and Eve not being created on Earth. Genesis goes into detail describing Jehovah creating the earth, with Adam and Eve being the final creative work. The Garden is described being between rivers on Earth. I presume you place the Garden in some spiritual level between heaven and Earth? Does this mean that Adam and Eve were not as human as you and I?

As for Earth being a banishing place for Adam and Eve, that too is a new concept for me. Did Jehovah intentionally create Earth to be a place of exile, before he created those to be exiled? How did the spiritual beings of Adam and Eve learn to live in a physical world, breathe the air, assimilate the food, etc? And why must we share this earth with Satan if all he's going to do is tempt us to sin? Could not the omnipotent, omniscient God somehow, someway keep humans and Satan separated? That way we could live in fellowship with God in a sinless world.

Quote:
And who tempted Lucifer to sin?


Nobody tempted Satan to sin, he chose to sin after disagreeing with God.

Which is my point. You said that our sin comes from Satan's temptations, not from our own free will. If free will does not lead to sin, and Satan has free will, then who tempted Satan to decide to sin?

Quote:

If removing Satan from the equation is all it takes to keep free-will beings from sinning, then why not keep Satan from earth?


Because this life is a test.

Some test. We have no choice in taking the test, the instructions for the test are conflicting, the test-giver is not present to answer crucial questions, the test is Pass/Fail, and if you don't pass then you are condemned to die.

Quote:
What can God do in Heaven that he can't do on Earth?


Absolutly nothing. God is all-powerful.

Exactly. God could have done it so differently, so efficiently, with no human suffering or waste or pain. And yet he didn't. But we are told that he will do it right the second time, in heaven, if we just hang in there and keep the faith.

Imagine a builder who constructs a house. The house is below spec, with dangerous live wires sticking out of the walls, leaky roofs, gaping holes, rotting floorboards, infested with rats. Everyone living in the house agrees that the house is not perfect, but the builder is sincere and truly cares about the residents. We are told that he is finishing up a high-rise apartment building, and that if we are patient, we will all be able to live there, where there will be no vermin, no shoddy workmanship, no dangerous chemicals in the air, and we'll all live happily ever after.

Would you, living in the sub-par house, believe these claims?

[JamesBrown]

I do not think that you loose your free-will when you enter heaven. When you enter heaven, i think we will see all the good, we will see God, and all this will be so incredable that we wont even want to sin. we will see how great perfection is and we wont want to go back to imperfection(does that make sense?)

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me. You are talking about millions and millions of believers living for billions and billions of years. Do you really think that no one, not ever, in all that time, will want to commit some act that is forbidden, when Adam and Eve couldn't do it within one lifetime? Perhaps you believe that Heaven will be so wonderful that you won't ever, ever, want to sin. Can you say the same for every other Christian that you know? Every single one? After all, as Genesis has shown us, it only takes one person, committing one single act, to spoil the whole thing.

Or else, we could say that we won't have the capability to sin, much like here on Earth we don't have the capability to flap our arms and fly, no matter how hard we try. But then, if we don't have the capability to choose good and evil, then we won't have free will, which means that heaven will be peopled with robots.

And if all God wants is a heaven filled with robots, then why didn't he just create it to begin with and be done with it?

Or else, we can entertain the notion that Heaven is just a mental construct created in our minds in order to instill some sense of justice that we don't see here on Earth and to be a final place to ensure that we won't die, not really.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[mujahid263]

I presume you place the Garden in some spiritual level between heaven and Earth?

No, I place the Garden as Heaven or in Heaven.

I may have misinterpreted these verses and the Garden may actually be on Earth. I'm not qualified for ijitihad.

2.35 . And We said : O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden , and eat ye freely ( of the fruits ) thereof where ye will ; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrongdoers .

2.36 . But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the ( happy ) state in which they were ; and We said : Fall down , one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a tune .

Here its indicated they are being sent to Earth.

Did Jehovah intentionally create Earth to be a place of exile, before he created those to be exiled?

No, the lord created Earth as a test for "the seed of Adam", whom the lord forsaw coming.

How did the spiritual beings of Adam and Eve learn to live in a physical world, breathe the air, assimilate the food, etc?

Many things to my knowledge were learnt as they went on, such as the sin of bloodshed from the story of Cain and Abel. But also said in Quran:

2.33 . He said : O Adam! Inform them of their names , and when he had informed them of their names , He said : Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide .

And why must we share this earth with Satan if all he's going to do is tempt us to sin?

Because life is meant to be a test, in reward for not following temptation, people go to heaven. In return for disobeying, people go to Hell.

7.13 . He said : Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here , so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded .

This is what God said to Satan because of Satan disobeying what the lord ordered. So Satan said:

7.14 . He said : Reprieve me till the day when they are raised ( from the dead ) .

After being reprieved, Satan said:

7.16 . He said : Now , because Thou hast sent me astray , verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path .
7.17 . Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right bands and from their left hands , and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden ( unto Thee ) .

And God said:

7.18 . He said : Go forth from hence , degraded , banished . As for such of them as follow thee , surely I will fill hell with all of you .

Could not the omnipotent, omniscient God somehow, someway keep humans and Satan separated? That way we could live in fellowship with God in a sinless world.

God's saving that for those who fight temptation and follow God.

You said that our sin comes from Satan's temptations, not from our own free will. If free will does not lead to sin, and Satan has free will, then who tempted Satan to decide to sin?

Mankind's sins come from following Satan, because people are born inherintly innocent. Satan was a bad jinn who disoeyed God, but the same rules would not apply for him because he is neither human nor angel. Instead he falls into the category of a jinn.

We have no choice in taking the test

Yep.

the instructions for the test are conflicting

They're not, part of the test is to find the right instructions.

the test-giver is not present to answer crucial questions

The test-giver was always present, twas God who sent those messengers to answer these crucial questions.

the test is Pass/Fail

Nope.

Scenarios:

1) More good & less bad = heaven*
2) Less good & more bad = Hell*

*Other factors such as mercy also apply

3) equal good and bad = not sure about this one, but there may be mention in ahadeeth for people who score here.

4) Certain sins send people to Hell. Certain sins won't send people to Hell for eternity.

Would you, living in the sub-par house, believe these claims?

Theres other factors involved that wouldn't make this analogy valid.

[JamesBrown]

No, I place the Garden as Heaven or in Heaven.

I may have misinterpreted these verses and the Garden may actually be on Earth. I'm not qualified for ijitihad.

Far be it from me to play dueling mythologies. If we gathered up all the Creation tales from cultures past and present and compared them, I daresay we would argue in circles indefinitely, and with no method of determining which one is true. The Christian Bible says that the Garden of Eden was created as a paradise on Earth for humans. You say the Garden actually is Heaven, that God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, so he created the exile place of Earth to let humans and Satan battle it out. Science says that Earth coalesced from the Sun's debris disk and that humans evolved from primitive primates. And science backs up its claims with carbon dating and fossilized evidence. Maybe I'm just a sinful fool, but I cling to the evidence. For you and I to argue whether the Garden of Eden is on Earth or in Heaven is like us debating who is the stronger wizard, Gandalf or Merlin.

But then again, I could be wrong.