How much choice do we have as humans? What I mean is, well God makes us, he makes everything about us.Sure he gave us free will, but He has programmed into us our personallitys and therefore what choice we will make. So does that mean we have no choice ( in saying choice im mostly talking about the choice to accept Jesus and stuff)? Like God programs us how we are, so doesn't that mean that he is the one making our choices for us indirectly? I have been talking about this with my friends on AIM but its kinda hard because they are like " What?" over and over and over again. So thats basically all i can get out right now, maybe later i will have thought of something els
P.S.
This may belong in some other subforum. Especially because I am completely relying on that God is real and he actually did make us and all....
EDIT: oops I didnt see the one on free will, if this is to
similar then just delete it.
Choice
Moderator: Moderators
Post #2
The question of choice, is a question of faith.
Do you belive, that God is so powerful, that he can handle the question of true free will
there is paradoxes in the problem of free choice in human context, but
there is also paradoxes in dropping free will.
"responsibility" has no meaning unless we can give a meaning to true free will.
that is responsibility in a human context
Do you belive, that God is so powerful, that he can handle the question of true free will
there is paradoxes in the problem of free choice in human context, but
there is also paradoxes in dropping free will.
"responsibility" has no meaning unless we can give a meaning to true free will.
that is responsibility in a human context
Post #3
Perhaps its wrong to assume God programed our personalaties into us,if so we would be like some type of automaton. I firmly believe that we develope as induviduals as we experince this life, things can affect our personal development such as family, friends, particular events and the over all environment in which we live. Its sort of the old natre vs nurture argument.
Post #4
Well i believe that God controlls everyhting that happens to us. Like He would control who we meet friends wise, whos family we are born into, events....et cetera. So then it must decide who we are and everthing. But that makes it hard because that would be admitting that my God is the one who condemned everyone to either heaven or hell. I dont know please help this is very confusing. i wish i could remember that verse in romans that talked about all this stuff.
Post #5
Hi jddlwlrjddlwlr wrote:Well i believe that God controlls everyhting that happens to us. Like He would control who we meet friends wise, whos family we are born into, events....et cetera. So then it must decide who we are and everthing. But that makes it hard because that would be admitting that my God is the one who condemned everyone to either heaven or hell. I dont know please help this is very confusing. i wish i could remember that verse in romans that talked about all this stuff.
I'll assume for the moment that your god exists (which, for me, is a BIG assume) - why do you believe that god controls everything that happens to us? Do you believe he controls us in a day to day manner (who is really driving the car?) Or just guides our actions?
Why is it hard to believe that it is your god that condemns people to eternal damnation? Isn't that what it says in the bible? So IF the bible is the word of god (I don't believe it is) then your god is, like it or not, the vengeful, jealous being it is claimed to be.
Re: Choice
Post #6Or perhaps God is a "big picture" kinda guy, far too busy with things like universal expansion, celestial mechanics, and hiding dark matter from those pesky, inquisitive humans to concern himself with whether I choose vanilla-fudge or mint chocolate chip.jddlwlr wrote:How much choice do we have as humans? What I mean is, well God makes us, he makes everything about us.Sure he gave us free will, but He has programmed into us our personallitys and therefore what choice we will make. So does that mean we have no choice ( in saying choice im mostly talking about the choice to accept Jesus and stuff)?
As to any alleged "choice to accept Jesus," I really don't think that our beliefs are chosen, at least not in the same fashion that we choose, say, appetizers and entrees from a restaurant menu. Whether or not something rings as plausible does not appear to be an entirely volitional function. So, yeah, I could "choose to accept Jesus," grit my teeth, hold my nose, and go through the motions, all the while my actions would be grossly insincere. Kinda like ordering up a big ol' plate of brussel sprouts and pretending that I'm thoroughly enjoying the taste and smell...
That would depend on the level of minutia to which we're programmed. Perhaps we're programmed with some sort of fuzzy logic wherein we're allowed a certain degree of freedom of choice.jddlwlr wrote:Like God programs us how we are, so doesn't that mean that he is the one making our choices for us indirectly?
As well, if God created us knowing that our choices appear to be real, when they are actually illusions, then wouldn't God be deceiving us? One parsimonious way out of this conundrum might be that our choices appear to be real because they are real; our will in matters appears real because it is real. If that's the case, then perhaps God just allows us some bounded degree of freedom, while reserving the right to alter those boundaries or revoke the liberty extended to us.
Regards,
mrmufin
Historically, bad science has been corrected by better science, not economists, clergy, or corporate interference.
Post #7
Well I was going on the bible for most of it, it says somewhere in romans ( im mad that i cant rememeber this verse) that it is not us but God, somthing. And i more meant that in God creating us he through that controls everything we do, maybe not by experiances or friends and all that but i mean more through him, creating our personalities, which would start a chain reaction to lead up to our actions. Am i wrong in thinking that? i dont know you guys have gotten me all confused. i thought i had it almost worked out and then.....
Post #8
And what if there's more to it than what's described in the bible? Have you consulted other sources as well?jddlwlr wrote:Well I was going on the bible for most of it, it says somewhere in romans ( im mad that i cant rememeber this verse) that it is not us but God, somthing.
If I was a bettin' man, I'd suspect that you're wrong in thinking that.jddlwlr wrote:And i more meant that in God creating us he through that controls everything we do, maybe not by experiances or friends and all that but i mean more through him, creating our personalities, which would start a chain reaction to lead up to our actions. Am i wrong in thinking that?
But then again, I'm a fan of frugality in drawing conclusions, so I just go with something like, "It sure doesn't feel like I'm being externally manipulated or controlled, so I'll start with the assumption that I'm not being manipulated." Should further evidence suggest that that's not the case, I'll consider it and, if necessary, update my opinion accordingly. Thus far, I've not come across any convincing evidences to the contrary.While I cheerfully admit that I don't believe in any of the gods, should I find one of the many god concepts convincing, I'd bet that the god I did believe in would be a big picture god. That would be the case in order to minimize the amount of mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile my faith with my common sense...
When I was 14, I prob'ly thought that I had things all figgered out, too. 8) I've got two dozen years on you, and I'm still trying to figure things out. May I suggest that you get comfortable with, "I don't know?"jddlwlr wrote:i dont know you guys have gotten me all confused. i thought i had it almost worked out and then.....
Regards,
mrmufin
Post #9
um, heck no. Well ok but it will be "i dont know but i am trying to find out" hows that? And what other sources do you mean? There are no other writings besides the bible that are from God ( i know you think that there are no gods, but that is what i believe.)mrmufin wrote: May I suggest that you get comfortable with, "I don't know?"
mrmufin
ugh i thought that i DID have it figured out and you guys are NOT helping but thats ok because the more confused i am the more i will understand things if i ever do ( i doubt that.) lemmie go think some more.
Besides i have tons of school to do for tomorrow.
Thanks.
Post #10
I know the feeling.jddlwlr wrote:Well ok but it will be "i dont know but i am trying to find out" hows that?
Most of my life has been spent trying to find out things.What if the folks who selected, compiled, ordered and translated the books that make up the bible left some things out or made a few mistakes? How would you know if some sort of oversight had happened in one of those processes?jddlwlr wrote:And what other sources do you mean? There are no other writings besides the bible that are from God ( i know you think that there are no gods, but that is what i believe.)
That's what we're here for; to not help! (Actually, that bernee51 fella is a pretty sharp guy. You might want to pay attention to his remarks.)jddlwlr wrote:ugh i thought that i DID have it figured out and you guys are NOT helping but thats ok because the more confused i am the more i will understand things if i ever do ( i doubt that.) lemmie go think some more.
Again, I know the feeling. I have tons of school work to do for tomorrow, too.jddlwlr wrote:Besides i have tons of school to do for tomorrow.
Thanks.
Good luck!Regards,
mrmufin
