Who impregnated Mary?

[Zzyzx]

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Who impregnated Mary?

If Jesus was “the son of god�, then “god� must be the father – and must have impregnated her.

However, doesn’t “scripture� say that Mary was impregnated by “the holy spirit�? Aren’t “god the father� and “the holy spirit� supposed to be DIFFERENT parts of the triad?

Wouldn’t that make Jesus the “son of the holy spirit�?

Was there an “angel� involved?

[Zzyzx]

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Okay. I know why I care and why I discuss it. I can hope that the discussion will open eyes and a soul finds God. Why do you care? What do you accomplish if you steer someone away?

Read carefully.

I have absolutely no interest in anyone’s personal and private beliefs or convictions. That is their business, not mine.

However, I encourage people (not require or pressure or coerce) to THINK and to make sound, intelligent decisions (that stand the test of time in their life), based upon consideration, study and evaluation of observation, experience and information from the real world they inhabit – not from emotion, fantasy or wishful thinking.

WHAT decisions anyone makes is of absolutely no concern to me – unless those decisions affect me directly and personally.

Is any of that beyond understanding?

What one cannot substantiate (or “prove�), one should not offer as truth – particularly in debate.

I offer it because it is truth. Others may or may not accept it as such.

You offer what you THINK is truth. You CANNOT show others that it IS truth.

It is appropriate to say “I think this is true� or “I believe this is true� in such cases, but it is NOT appropriate to claim truth for what you cannot verify – particularly in honorable debate.

How does one prove the invisible?

Many things that are invisible can be proved to exist. The simplest and most common example might be AIR. Though it cannot be seen by us (i.e., invisible), we can detect its presence directly with our senses when we feel a breeze.

What CANNOT be proved is the UNDETECTABLE.

Ah, well then...that is a better choice of words. However, in my life and in the lives of many others the presence of the Holy Spirit is detectable. How do I prove that to you?

You DON’T “prove� anything to me with personal testimonials.

Snake oil salesmen and those promoting competing “gods� and “spirits� can offer testimonials as evidence. Yours is no more convincing than theirs. Should I take your word and not that of others – or should I believe whatever someone says?

For all I know an anonymous persona on the Internet could be totally delusional, extremely naïve or gullible, or entirely fake. I do not trust everyone to be honest AND accurate. Do you?

If one, wisely, does not indiscriminately accept the word of others, they CHECK the authenticity of what is presented. If authenticity cannot be verified by other, independent, sources of information, it is prudent to NOT place a great deal of trust in such statements.

Is that difficult to understand?

He isn't a televangelist. He teaches just as professors do.

Okay, he is a television personality. Remember that the intent of television is to SELL something to someone. The cost of television programming and transmission is high. It is not done altruistically.

He covers the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse as we are supposed to and then one can truly learn. Or, one can go to church and listen to a sermon with two or three lines of scripture. I chose wisely.

Are you sure that it might not be even wiser to NOT watch television OR to listen to sermons? In both cases, it is someone “selling� something.

I choose to not use those as reliable information sources, but instead research widely from multiple sources representing widely divergent viewpoints.

A person schooled in probability will tell you that such things CAN be coincidence.

Yes, and a non-believer may well believe them. I chose wisely.

It appears as though you prefer to make decisions based upon EMOTION rather than reasoning from evidence and observation of the real world we inhabit.

That is fine for you, but it is less than appropriate in debate.

Many people become fixated on certain digits, thinking they have “significance� or they are a “lucky number� (or they are “signs�).

Notice there are only ten digits in standard mathematics. They occur adjacent to each other regularly and repeatedly. One who looks for “significance� notices when or how often the digits are together and disregards the much greater frequency of the chosen digits NOT appearing together.

The frequency of the other numbers holds no meaning to me. It is just 1 & 4.

How did you come to decide that the occurrence of 1 and 4 are SIGNIFICANT and have “meaning�?

Do you think that some invisible force is manipulating the frequency of digits in your life? If so, how can you identify the force (with anything more than a guess)?

Of course I think an "invisible force" is causing me to see. What else would awaken me out of a sound sleep at 11:44? Not 11:45 or 11:43 but 11:44 or 4:14 or 1:44. It happens all the time Z. Last year my husband and I travelled to Atlanta to attend a wedding. My husband drives really fast and, being an old fuddy duddy, it makes me nervous. I started seeing the numbers on tags and signs and then felt safe. We got to our hotel and were given a key to room 413. When going up to the room I said, it should have been 414. Well we got there and guess what. They had given us the wrong key...we were indeed in 414.

Coincidence....no Z.

Do you propose that was some invisible force “telling� you something?

If so:

What was the force and how do you know that?

What was it telling you and how do you know that?

I went in for a medical procedure and was nervous...going under anesthesia. As they started it I glanced at my BP - 141. I smiled and drifted off. There are many more incidents that may not amount to a hill of beans to others but....I know what they are.

What are they?

Signs.

Kindly define “signs� as you use the term.

Can you identify the source of “signs� (if so how?).

Have you observed that most clocks show the digits 4 and 1 repeatedly throughout the day?

Every day like clockwork but do you see those numbers repeated in your life constantly? I do.

I do not “see� or pay attention to 4:11 AM or PM, though I am often awake and aware during those hours.

I often “see�1200 because that is lunch time. Is that a “sign� (of something besides hunger?)

Has it occurred to you that EVERYONE sees the same digits? Are all receiving “signs� from a “god� at 4:11 AM?

Do you see them constantly? If yes then....yes, they are a sign.

Many people are in professions that require them to be very aware of time (air traffic control, broadcasting, weather forecasting come to mind). If they “see� 4:11 repeatedly, is that a “sign�?

Some claim that their favorite “god� knows everything.

The One God does know everything.

Which of the thousands of proposed “gods� is the one who knows everything – and WHY is that one the only one who knows? Is it because a book of tales by ancient storytellers and religious promoters SAYS so?

Speaking often to one another on forums such as this one. Even questioning may well be part of the process. We are here for a reason...all of us.

My reason for being here is to help bible believers demonstrate that they have no claim on truth or knowledge – and to encourage people to THINK RATIONALLY and to make decisions based on observation, information and evidence from the real world.

Bible believers do have a claim on truth but, go ahead and try to encourage us to turn our backs on Him. That's a door you can't shut Z.

Again, I have no interest in “converting� or “convincing� anyone – but offer ideas for capable readers to evaluate (in opposition to the emotional appeals and testimonials offered by god believers / religionists attempting to promote or defend their chosen “god� and religion).

I see God's hand in the written Word. It is evident to me. I'm very sorry you don't see it.

Do you propose that your observations are superior to mine?

Do you claim to know what is best for me (and others)?

Why should anyone “see� what you think you “see�? You claim to “see signs everywhere� – numbers on a clock supposedly contain supernatural meaning or message (or “sign�).

I am not at all sorry that I do not clutter my thinking with such things.

I see God's story running through the pages of the Bible...the same story.

If you were not already a believer, you might not “see god’s story running through the pages of the bible� – but see the bible for what it is – stories written by storytellers and religious promoters long ago and far away.

And, if you weren't an unbeliever you might see Him in your life.

Yes, if I “believed� I might consider numbers on the clock to be “signs� from the “god� I was trying to promote or defend.

It is connected throughout. Joseph Smith may well have been led by God...I don't know but I do know that Christ said He foretold us all things. Those things are written. Those things I believe.

Your “belief� must be comforting to you. It might be best to hang on to that, no matter how illogical it seems to others, if you need the belief in your life.

All of us need Him in our life but not all of us recognize that.

Many religionists seem to think that others NEED a “god� to help or guide them – refusing to recognize that others may well NOT need any such thing.

It is egotism, in my opinion, to think that one KNOWS what others should think and believe (particularly if based on ancient tales in a book by storytellers and religious promoters).

[whirlwind]

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Read carefully.

I have absolutely no interest in anyone’s personal and private beliefs or convictions. That is their business, not mine.

However, I encourage people (not require or pressure or coerce) to THINK and to make sound, intelligent decisions (that stand the test of time in their life), based upon consideration, study and evaluation of observation, experience and information from the real world they inhabit – not from emotion, fantasy or wishful thinking.

WHAT decisions anyone makes is of absolutely no concern to me – unless those decisions affect me directly and personally.

Is any of that beyond understanding?

No...not at all. It is evident. I trust my reasons are also evident.

What one cannot substantiate (or “prove�), one should not offer as truth – particularly in debate.

I offer it because it is truth. Others may or may not accept it as such.

You offer what you THINK is truth. You CANNOT show others that it IS truth.

It is appropriate to say “I think this is true� or “I believe this is true� in such cases, but it is NOT appropriate to claim truth for what you cannot verify – particularly in honorable debate.

It is truth. You choose not to believe it but that doesn't mean it isn't truth.

How does one prove the invisible?

Many things that are invisible can be proved to exist. The simplest and most common example might be AIR. Though it cannot be seen by us (i.e., invisible), we can detect its presence directly with our senses when we feel a breeze.

What CANNOT be proved is the UNDETECTABLE.

Ah, well then...that is a better choice of words. However, in my life and in the lives of many others the presence of the Holy Spirit is detectable. How do I prove that to you?

You DON’T “prove� anything to me with personal testimonials.

Snake oil salesmen and those promoting competing “gods� and “spirits� can offer testimonials as evidence. Yours is no more convincing than theirs. Should I take your word and not that of others – or should I believe whatever someone says?

For all I know an anonymous persona on the Internet could be totally delusional, extremely naïve or gullible, or entirely fake. I do not trust everyone to be honest AND accurate. Do you?

If one, wisely, does not indiscriminately accept the word of others, they CHECK the authenticity of what is presented. If authenticity cannot be verified by other, independent, sources of information, it is prudent to NOT place a great deal of trust in such statements.

Is that difficult to understand?

No. Is it difficult for YOU to understand that whether or not YOU accept what I write has no effect on it's being the truth?

He isn't a televangelist. He teaches just as professors do.

Okay, he is a television personality. Remember that the intent of television is to SELL something to someone. The cost of television programming and transmission is high. It is not done altruistically.

And, is the intent of professors to work for a living, to bring home a salary? Or is their labor done altruistically? The teacher I am speaking of doesn't take a salary. He farms for his living and teaches for the joy of teaching....as many of God's children do. With money sent in he buys air time on various channels and it covers "the cost of programming and transmission." He doesn't have telethons and he doesn't beg. Now, wouldn't you prefer to discuss what is taught rather than the one teaching?

He covers the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse as we are supposed to and then one can truly learn. Or, one can go to church and listen to a sermon with two or three lines of scripture. I chose wisely.

Are you sure that it might not be even wiser to NOT watch television OR to listen to sermons? In both cases, it is someone “selling� something.

I choose to not use those as reliable information sources, but instead research widely from multiple sources representing widely divergent viewpoints.

I listened and I learned. Now the Holy Spirit teaches. If we are called we are to be under tutors for a time and then....the Spirit teaches.

A person schooled in probability will tell you that such things CAN be coincidence.

Yes, and a non-believer may well believe them. I chose wisely.

It appears as though you prefer to make decisions based upon EMOTION rather than reasoning from evidence and observation of the real world we inhabit.

That is fine for you, but it is less than appropriate in debate.

My emotion has nothing to do with seeing what is shown. It is either there or not there no matter how I feel about it. I can't make it happen by feelings.

Many people become fixated on certain digits, thinking they have “significance� or they are a “lucky number� (or they are “signs�).

Notice there are only ten digits in standard mathematics. They occur adjacent to each other regularly and repeatedly. One who looks for “significance� notices when or how often the digits are together and disregards the much greater frequency of the chosen digits NOT appearing together.

The frequency of the other numbers holds no meaning to me. It is just 1 & 4.

How did you come to decide that the occurrence of 1 and 4 are SIGNIFICANT and have “meaning�?

They are significant as I see them all the time. Biblical numbers have meaning and those meanings are often carried in chapter and verse numerics.

Do you think that some invisible force is manipulating the frequency of digits in your life? If so, how can you identify the force (with anything more than a guess)?

Of course I think an "invisible force" is causing me to see. What else would awaken me out of a sound sleep at 11:44? Not 11:45 or 11:43 but 11:44 or 4:14 or 1:44. It happens all the time Z. Last year my husband and I travelled to Atlanta to attend a wedding. My husband drives really fast and, being an old fuddy duddy, it makes me nervous. I started seeing the numbers on tags and signs and then felt safe. We got to our hotel and were given a key to room 413. When going up to the room I said, it should have been 414. Well we got there and guess what. They had given us the wrong key...we were indeed in 414.

Coincidence....no Z.

Do you propose that was some invisible force “telling� you something?

If so:

What was the force and how do you know that?

What was it telling you and how do you know that?

The "force" is the Holy Spirit, also known as the "Comforter." He does. I'm not told anything but I am guided. Often seeing the numbers is simply a sign that He is there.

I went in for a medical procedure and was nervous...going under anesthesia. As they started it I glanced at my BP - 141. I smiled and drifted off. There are many more incidents that may not amount to a hill of beans to others but....I know what they are.

What are they?

Signs.

Kindly define “signs� as you use the term.

Can you identify the source of “signs� (if so how?).

The source is the Holy Spirit.

The definition of signs, as I use the term, is whatever awakens you to Him.

1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

That happened. I was turned into another person and now I teach as occasion serves me and....God is with me. I saw signs but He also uses us as signs to others.....

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given Me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Have you observed that most clocks show the digits 4 and 1 repeatedly throughout the day?

Every day like clockwork but do you see those numbers repeated in your life constantly? I do.

I do not “see� or pay attention to 4:11 AM or PM, though I am often awake and aware during those hours.

I often “see�1200 because that is lunch time. Is that a “sign� (of something besides hunger?)

I don't know Z. Do you feel something is being shown you or are you simply hungry? I knew something was going on. As much as you dislike the word...I felt something to my core.

Perhaps you need to consider that your sign is given you in discussions such as these....remember, the children given to Him are for signs.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Has it occurred to you that EVERYONE sees the same digits? Are all receiving “signs� from a “god� at 4:11 AM?

Do you see them constantly? If yes then....yes, they are a sign.

Many people are in professions that require them to be very aware of time (air traffic control, broadcasting, weather forecasting come to mind). If they “see� 4:11 repeatedly, is that a “sign�?

Are they looking to see what time it is every few minutes? Then I would say no. Do they see those numbers in many different places? Then I would say yes.

Some claim that their favorite “god� knows everything.

The One God does know everything.

Which of the thousands of proposed “gods� is the one who knows everything – and WHY is that one the only one who knows? Is it because a book of tales by ancient storytellers and religious promoters SAYS so?

You must ask those that believe in thousands of gods. Paul, when taken to Athens, answered such questions as you are asking...


Acts 17:18-19 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

17:22-25 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

17:26-28 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.

17:30-32 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Speaking often to one another on forums such as this one. Even questioning may well be part of the process. We are here for a reason...all of us.

My reason for being here is to help bible believers demonstrate that they have no claim on truth or knowledge – and to encourage people to THINK RATIONALLY and to make decisions based on observation, information and evidence from the real world.

Bible believers do have a claim on truth but, go ahead and try to encourage us to turn our backs on Him. That's a door you can't shut Z.

Again, I have no interest in “converting� or “convincing� anyone – but offer ideas for capable readers to evaluate (in opposition to the emotional appeals and testimonials offered by god believers / religionists attempting to promote or defend their chosen “god� and religion).

Fair enough. We are in the wilderness and both sides are to be presented. The serpent continues to tempt and God continues to call.

Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

I see God's hand in the written Word. It is evident to me. I'm very sorry you don't see it.

Do you propose that your observations are superior to mine?

Do you claim to know what is best for me (and others)?

Yes, on this topic. Yes, on this topic.

Why should anyone “see� what you think you “see�? You claim to “see signs everywhere� – numbers on a clock supposedly contain supernatural meaning or message (or “sign�).

I am not at all sorry that I do not clutter my thinking with such things.

I see God's story running through the pages of the Bible...the same story.

If you were not already a believer, you might not “see god’s story running through the pages of the bible� – but see the bible for what it is – stories written by storytellers and religious promoters long ago and far away.

And, if you weren't an unbeliever you might see Him in your life.

Yes, if I “believed� I might consider numbers on the clock to be “signs� from the “god� I was trying to promote or defend.

It is connected throughout. Joseph Smith may well have been led by God...I don't know but I do know that Christ said He foretold us all things. Those things are written. Those things I believe.

Your “belief� must be comforting to you. It might be best to hang on to that, no matter how illogical it seems to others, if you need the belief in your life.

All of us need Him in our life but not all of us recognize that.

Many religionists seem to think that others NEED a “god� to help or guide them – refusing to recognize that others may well NOT need any such thing.

It is egotism, in my opinion, to think that one KNOWS what others should think and believe (particularly if based on ancient tales in a book by storytellers and religious promoters).

No. I gave ego trips up when I found truth.

[Zzyzx]

l

I have absolutely no interest in anyone’s personal and private beliefs or convictions. That is their business, not mine.

However, I encourage people (not require or pressure or coerce) to THINK and to make sound, intelligent decisions (that stand the test of time in their life), based upon consideration, study and evaluation of observation, experience and information from the real world they inhabit – not from emotion, fantasy or wishful thinking.

WHAT decisions anyone makes is of absolutely no concern to me – unless those decisions affect me directly and personally.

Is any of that beyond understanding?

No...not at all. It is evident. I trust my reasons are also evident.

It is evident that you DO have an agenda of promoting a specific god belief and worship system. You have an agenda of promoting or defending that god worship system, whereas my clearly stated objective is to encourage people to THINK and to make decisions based on their evaluations of the real world we inhabit.

It is appropriate to say “I think this is true� or “I believe this is true� in such cases, but it is NOT appropriate to claim truth for what you cannot verify – particularly in honorable debate.

It is truth.

It is irrational to proclaim that one possesses absolute truth.

You choose not to believe it but that doesn't mean it isn't truth.

You are attempting to convince not only me but READERS that you speak truth. When you claim repeatedly that you do so and cite tales from ancient storytellers to “prove� that what you say is truthful and accurate, I (for one) do not accept that as any indication of truth.

Do you have anything else to offer readers (or me) to show that you speak truth?

No. Is it difficult for YOU to understand that whether or not YOU accept what I write has no effect on it's being the truth?

I do NOT accept your statements as truthful UNLESS you can provide evidence that they are true. I “do not know you from Adam� and have not basis upon which to trust what you say to be accurate or truthful.

He isn't a televangelist. He teaches just as professors do.

Since I refuse to watch “the boob tube�, I cannot verify or refute your claim. However, as a former professor, I QUESTION whether a television personality can “teach just as professors do�, On what do you base that claim? To what “professors� do you compare him?

Okay, he is a television personality. Remember that the intent of television is to SELL something to someone. The cost of television programming and transmission is high. It is not done altruistically.

And, is the intent of professors to work for a living, to bring home a salary? Or is their labor done altruistically?

As a former college / university professor I can answer only from my own observation of self and others. Many seem to teach for salary. Some teach because they truly dedicate themselves to furthering the education of others. It is difficult for students to tell the difference.

Do you claim the ability to discern the motivations of one who claims to be a “teacher�?

The teacher I am speaking of doesn't take a salary. He farms for his living and teaches for the joy of teaching....as many of God's children do. With money sent in he buys air time on various channels and it covers "the cost of programming and transmission." He doesn't have telethons and he doesn't beg.

So far so good. He DOES accept or solicit “donations� from those who he has convinced that he speaks truth – to used as he sees fit, to accomplish his objectives.

Now, wouldn't you prefer to discuss what is taught rather than the one teaching?

Are you qualified to discuss what “is taught� accurately, openly and honestly?

I choose to not use those as reliable information sources, but instead research widely from multiple sources representing widely divergent viewpoints.

I listened and I learned.

One can learn false information from “false prophets�. How can you determine that he speaks truth? Is it that he says what you want or need to hear?

Now the Holy Spirit teaches. If we are called we are to be under tutors for a time and then....the Spirit teaches.

You hear a television preacher and choose to believe that what he says is truthful, accurate and applicable. Others, me included, ask for evidence that what is told is true and accurate.

If you are not willing to question truth and accuracy of what you are told, that is your business, but do not tell me that it is true unless you can substantiate the claim with something more than emotionalism, opinion and biblical quotes.

My emotion has nothing to do with seeing what is shown. It is either there or not there no matter how I feel about it. I can't make it happen by feelings.

What you are citing is nothing BUT emotion – attachment of “significance� to the occurrence of certain numerals.

You CANNOT show that the occurrence of numerals has significance EXCEPT in your emotions (not in the real world and not as evidence of anything to others).

How did you come to decide that the occurrence of 1 and 4 are SIGNIFICANT and have “meaning�?

They are significant as I see them all the time. Biblical numbers have meaning and those meanings are often carried in chapter and verse numerics.

You have not said WHY you decided that the numbers are significant – other than to claim to see them “all the time�. Others may see them as often as you do and not attach mystical “significance�.

Where, exactly, does the bible proclaim that specific numerical digits are “signs� to individuals?

Is this something that you are making up?

Can you identify the source of “signs� (if so how?).

The source is the Holy Spirit.

How, exactly, can you determine with certainty that your “signs� are from the “holy spirit�?

According to Christian lore, “Satan� is fully capable of deceiving humans and is supernatural. What makes you SURE that you are not being deceived by “Satan� when you see 4:11?

No “spirit� (“holy� or otherwise) has “spoken� to me or sent “signs�. I leave that sort of thing to others who prefer to orient their lives around supposed “teachings� or “signs� (none of which can be shown to others as being truthful or accurate or applicable).

The definition of signs, as I use the term, is whatever awakens you to Him.

With me the success ratio is absolutely zero. Some think that their “enlightenment� applies to others – a rather egotistical claim in my opinion.

I don't know Z. Do you feel something is being shown you or are you simply hungry? I knew something was going on. As much as you dislike the word...I felt something to my core.

I tend to get hungry a few hours after breakfast. That must be a “sign� – and if my clock displays the digits 1200 that MUST be a “sign�. Both of those must be an invisible “holy spirit� sending me messages. Of course. Why didn’t I think of that?

My “core� often tells me that I am hungry or thirsty. My clock sometimes tells me it is noon – and doesn’t send me “signs� or messages.

Perhaps you need to consider that your sign is given you in discussions such as these....remember, the children given to Him are for signs.

I do not look to children for enlightenment. I look to well informed adults who display judgment, discernment and knowledge, and who can substantiate what they say, whose claims I can verify using independent sources.

Others often choose to take the easy route of following the “guidance� of ancient storytellers. That is their choice.

Some claim that their favorite “god� knows everything.

The One God does know everything.

Which of the thousands of proposed “gods� is the one who knows everything – and WHY is that one the only one who knows? Is it because a book of tales by ancient storytellers and religious promoters SAYS so?

You must ask those that believe in thousands of gods. Paul, when taken to Athens, answered such questions as you are asking...

I am not debating “those who believe in thousands of gods�, and am not debating “Paul�, I am debating YOU. Speak for yourself. Defend your claims – if you can.

You evidently cannot defend the claim that your favorite “god� knows everything. I agree.

Again, I have no interest in “converting� or “convincing� anyone – but offer ideas for capable readers to evaluate (in opposition to the emotional appeals and testimonials offered by god believers / religionists attempting to promote or defend their chosen “god� and religion).

Fair enough. We are in the wilderness and both sides are to be presented. The serpent continues to tempt and God continues to call.

When serpents (snakes) come into my life, I often kill, skin, fry and eat them. Does that mean that “Satan� is dead and eaten?

I see God's hand in the written Word. It is evident to me. I'm very sorry you don't see it.

Do you propose that your observations are superior to mine?

Do you claim to know what is best for me (and others)?

Yes, on this topic. Yes, on this topic.

I do not doubt that you actually think that you do know more than others about what is best for them. Assumption of superior knowledge is a common delusion associated with religious belief.

No. I gave ego trips up when I found truth.

Do you not understand that claiming to know more about what is best for others than they know themselves is EGOTISTICAL and a claim (or delusion) of superiority?

[whirlwind]

It is evident that you DO have an agenda of promoting a specific god belief and worship system. You have an agenda of promoting or defending that god worship system, whereas my clearly stated objective is to encourage people to THINK and to make decisions based on their evaluations of the real world we inhabit.

Good. I'm glad you see what my agenda is. It is wonderful to have Him in my life and I love to tell others about Him and His promise so they can "evaluate the real word they inhabit," for that REAL world is eternity. It is this rather short present flesh age that determines where we are in the next forever age.

It is irrational to proclaim that one possesses absolute truth.

Only if one doesn't KNOW the truth on certain topics.

You are attempting to convince not only me but READERS that you speak truth. When you claim repeatedly that you do so and cite tales from ancient storytellers to “prove� that what you say is truthful and accurate, I (for one) do not accept that as any indication of truth.

Yes indeed I am trying my best to convince READERS. It is obvious you don't accept what I say but, as I said..."because you choose not to believe doesn't mean it isn't truth." Do you believe that?

Do you have anything else to offer readers (or me) to show that you speak truth?

I am reaching the conclusion that there is nothing that can be offered to YOU.

Since I refuse to watch “the boob tube�, I cannot verify or refute your claim. However, as a former professor, I QUESTION whether a television personality can “teach just as professors do�, On what do you base that claim? To what “professors� do you compare him?

So now you want PROOF that a teacher teaches?

Okay, he is a television personality. Remember that the intent of television is to SELL something to someone. The cost of television programming and transmission is high. It is not done altruistically.

And, is the intent of professors to work for a living, to bring home a salary? Or is their labor done altruistically?

As a former college / university professor I can answer only from my own observation of self and others. Many seem to teach for salary. Some teach because they truly dedicate themselves to furthering the education of others. It is difficult for students to tell the difference.

Do you claim the ability to discern the motivations of one who claims to be a “teacher�?

This one...yes, I do.

The teacher I am speaking of doesn't take a salary. He farms for his living and teaches for the joy of teaching....as many of God's children do. With money sent in he buys air time on various channels and it covers "the cost of programming and transmission." He doesn't have telethons and he doesn't beg.

So far so good. He DOES accept or solicit “donations� from those who he has convinced that he speaks truth – to used as he sees fit, to accomplish his objectives.

I answered that above. He doesn't take a salary. He doesn't raise money for orphanages, for the poor, for the destitute. He doesn't raise money to send to foreign countries. All of those may be something people wish to help with but they are not what he does. He doesn't raise money for any purposes except to teach. That is his goal and that is what he has dedicated himself to do. What he gives in his personal life to charities is just that...personal.

Now, wouldn't you prefer to discuss what is taught rather than the one teaching?

Are you qualified to discuss what “is taught� accurately, openly and honestly?

Yes for the Holy Spirit teaches me.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I listened and I learned.

One can learn false information from “false prophets�. How can you determine that he speaks truth? Is it that he says what you want or need to hear?

Yes one can. One can also listen to those that ridicule the Bible because they have no spiritual understanding. Discussing someone that I learned from has nothing to do with any topic. I never asked, nor cared, what atheist, what false preacher, or spirit, or lack of understanding taught you God wasn't real.

Now the Holy Spirit teaches. If we are called we are to be under tutors for a time and then....the Spirit teaches.

You hear a television preacher and choose to believe that what he says is truthful, accurate and applicable. Others, me included, ask for evidence that what is told is true and accurate.

What I teach is there for all to consider.

If you are not willing to question truth and accuracy of what you are told, that is your business, but do not tell me that it is true unless you can substantiate the claim with something more than emotionalism, opinion and biblical quotes.

It is substantiated in the ONLY TRUE source.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

My emotion has nothing to do with seeing what is shown. It is either there or not there no matter how I feel about it. I can't make it happen by feelings.

What you are citing is nothing BUT emotion – attachment of “significance� to the occurrence of certain numerals.

Then my suggestion....don't pay attention. I know what I see.

You CANNOT show that the occurrence of numerals has significance EXCEPT in your emotions (not in the real world and not as evidence of anything to others).

And I can't show that you're an actual, real, live person. There is no evidence of it. I mean I see your words, but maybe I just feel like I'm seeing your words.

How did you come to decide that the occurrence of 1 and 4 are SIGNIFICANT and have “meaning�?

They are significant as I see them all the time. Biblical numbers have meaning and those meanings are often carried in chapter and verse numerics.

You have not said WHY you decided that the numbers are significant – other than to claim to see them “all the time�. Others may see them as often as you do and not attach mystical “significance�.

Where, exactly, does the bible proclaim that specific numerical digits are “signs� to individuals?

Is this something that you are making up?

No, I"m not "making it up."

The bible doesn't specify...at the end of days your digital clocks will show numbers and those are to be signs to you. What are signs to me may not be to others. Signs to others may not be signs to me. "Different strokes for different folks." Some will receive only one sign for they are, "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas." [Mt.12:39] To others His Word spoken through His children are their sign...do they listen?

How, exactly, can you determine with certainty that your “signs� are from the “holy spirit�?

According to Christian lore, “Satan� is fully capable of deceiving humans and is supernatural. What makes you SURE that you are not being deceived by “Satan� when you see 4:11?

No “spirit� (“holy� or otherwise) has “spoken� to me or sent “signs�. I leave that sort of thing to others who prefer to orient their lives around supposed “teachings� or “signs� (none of which can be shown to others as being truthful or accurate or applicable).

Signs are given. Signs are not always recognized and even if recognized are not accepted by many.

The definition of signs, as I use the term, is whatever awakens you to Him.

With me the success ratio is absolutely zero. Some think that their “enlightenment� applies to others – a rather egotistical claim in my opinion.

I don't know Z. Do you feel something is being shown you or are you simply hungry? I knew something was going on. As much as you dislike the word...I felt something to my core.

I tend to get hungry a few hours after breakfast. That must be a “sign� – and if my clock displays the digits 1200 that MUST be a “sign�. Both of those must be an invisible “holy spirit� sending me messages. Of course. Why didn’t I think of that?

My “core� often tells me that I am hungry or thirsty. My clock sometimes tells me it is noon – and doesn’t send me “signs� or messages.

You may disparage it all you wish. I know what I know. Perhaps if others read this they too will recognize them for what they are and not listen to the ridicule.

Perhaps you need to consider that your sign is given you in discussions such as these....remember, the children given to Him are for signs.

I do not look to children for enlightenment. I look to well informed adults who display judgment, discernment and knowledge, and who can substantiate what they say, whose claims I can verify using independent sources.

Others often choose to take the easy route of following the “guidance� of ancient storytellers. That is their choice.

The children I speak of are guided by the Holy Spirit. They are sons of man and sons of God.....

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

2:26-28 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father. And I will give him the morning star.

I am not debating “those who believe in thousands of gods�, and am not debating “Paul�, I am debating YOU. Speak for yourself. Defend your claims – if you can.

You evidently cannot defend the claim that your favorite “god� knows everything. I agree.

Then why did YOU bring up the "thousands of gods?" Why defend what is self-evident. The creation is here, all around us. It didn't pop out of a bottle.

Again, I have no interest in “converting� or “convincing� anyone – but offer ideas for capable readers to evaluate (in opposition to the emotional appeals and testimonials offered by god believers / religionists attempting to promote or defend their chosen “god� and religion).

Fair enough. We are in the wilderness and both sides are to be presented. The serpent continues to tempt and God continues to call.

When serpents (snakes) come into my life, I often kill, skin, fry and eat them. Does that mean that “Satan� is dead and eaten?

That particular serpent can't be skinned and eaten. He lives in many now, as the Holy Spirit lives in many. His presence is obvious in some, they are already his and now he goes after others...Christians.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I see God's hand in the written Word. It is evident to me. I'm very sorry you don't see it.

Do you propose that your observations are superior to mine?

Do you claim to know what is best for me (and others)?

Yes, on this topic. Yes, on this topic.

I do not doubt that you actually think that you do know more than others about what is best for them. Assumption of superior knowledge is a common delusion associated with religious belief.

And I don't at all doubt that you believe you have superior knowledge...calling the truth delusion. This is the the great battle of Armageddon going on right now. Sides are being chosen, swords are drawn...the battle rages.

No. I gave ego trips up when I found truth.

Do you not understand that claiming to know more about what is best for others than they know themselves is EGOTISTICAL and a claim (or delusion) of superiority?

No for the words aren't mine. They are His Words, His truths, His instructions and He knows what's best.

[Zzyzx]

.

It is evident that you DO have an agenda of promoting a specific god belief and worship system. You have an agenda of promoting or defending that god worship system, whereas my clearly stated objective is to encourage people to THINK and to make decisions based on their evaluations of the real world we inhabit.

I'm glad you see what my agenda is.

It is unfortunate that you seem unable or unwilling to understand that I have no such agenda.

It is irrational to proclaim that one possesses absolute truth.

Only if one doesn't KNOW the truth on certain topics.

Do you claim to possess absolute truth on a topic?

You are attempting to convince not only me but READERS that you speak truth. When you claim repeatedly that you do so and cite tales from ancient storytellers to “prove� that what you say is truthful and accurate, I (for one) do not accept that as any indication of truth.

Yes indeed I am trying my best to convince READERS. It is obvious you don't accept what I say but, as I said..."because you choose not to believe doesn't mean it isn't truth." Do you believe that?

I do not chose to believe or not believe in “gods� but ask for evidence from those who purport to know and to convince me or others to accept what they say as truth.

It must be frustrating for those who promote belief but cannot offer anything more than testimonials, opinions, conjectures and ancient stories to substantiate what they say.

Do you have anything else to offer readers (or me) to show that you speak truth?

I am reaching the conclusion that there is nothing that can be offered to YOU.

Try me – offer some evidence other than conjecture, opinion, testimonial or writings by ancient storytellers and religious promoters. Surely if religion or supernatural belief is real there is something to indicate that – something more than what can come from human imagination.

Since I refuse to watch “the boob tube�, I cannot verify or refute your claim. However, as a former professor, I QUESTION whether a television personality can “teach just as professors do�, On what do you base that claim? To what “professors� do you compare him?

So now you want PROOF that a teacher teaches?

Notice that I asked on what you base YOUR claim �teach just as professors do�.

I know something about how professors teach based upon a total of about twenty years in higher education. I KNOW, based on personal experience, that not all teach alike – that some are gifted teachers and some are not – that some know their subject deeply and others do not.

There is no such thing as a blanket statement of how professors teach because that is an individual characteristic.

As a former college / university professor I can answer only from my own observation of self and others. Many seem to teach for salary. Some teach because they truly dedicate themselves to furthering the education of others. It is difficult for students to tell the difference.

Do you claim the ability to discern the motivations of one who claims to be a “teacher�?

This one...yes, I do.

HOW do you KNOW? How did you come to possess the ability to discern the motivations of someone by watching them on television?

Is it possible that someone can present themselves very convincingly on television to be something or someone they are not?

Is it possible for someone on television to SAY that all the money they collect goes to a certain cause – and actually put it in their pocket?

I am NOT suggesting that the person is a fraud; however, I AM saying that by watching television one cannot reliably determine the motives of people on camera. Many thousands or millions thought for years that Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker were upstanding Christian men – UNTIL they proved to be otherwise. In the meantime, they “taught� whatever they wanted and collected money for whatever purposes they chose.

The teacher I am speaking of doesn't take a salary. He farms for his living and teaches for the joy of teaching....as many of God's children do. With money sent in he buys air time on various channels and it covers "the cost of programming and transmission." He doesn't have telethons and he doesn't beg.

So far so good. He DOES accept or solicit “donations� from those who he has convinced that he speaks truth – to used as he sees fit, to accomplish his objectives.

I answered that above. He doesn't take a salary. He doesn't raise money for orphanages, for the poor, for the destitute. He doesn't raise money to send to foreign countries. All of those may be something people wish to help with but they are not what he does. He doesn't raise money for any purposes except to teach. That is his goal and that is what he has dedicated himself to do. What he gives in his personal life to charities is just that...personal.

Thank you. That is exactly my point. If a person raises money to teach what s/he promotes, that IS pursuing a personal agenda.

If someone raises money to teach AGAINST religion, are they raising money to promote their agenda?

Now, wouldn't you prefer to discuss what is taught rather than the one teaching?

Are you qualified to discuss what “is taught� accurately, openly and honestly?

Yes for the Holy Spirit teaches me.

Can you demonstrate that it is not that a “holy spirit� teaches me to question false religion?

I listened and I learned.

One can learn false information from “false prophets�. How can you determine that he speaks truth? Is it that he says what you want or need to hear?

Yes one can.

How, exactly, can that be done (particularly by watching television)?

Does on “trust their feelings�?

One can also listen to those that ridicule the Bible because they have no spiritual understanding.

Not everyone’s “spiritual understanding� includes the bible.

Discussing someone that I learned from has nothing to do with any topic.

Agreed. If I am not mistaken, you raised the topic. Correct?

I never asked, nor cared, what atheist, what false preacher, or spirit, or lack of understanding taught you God wasn't real.

Do you deliberately distort my position or do you just not read what I clearly state?

I do NOT take the position that “gods� are not real. In fact, I state repeatedly that any or all of the thousands proposed MAY be real – but that I have encountered no evidence that is true. Notice that is clearly NOT a denial.

When people, particularly in debate, insist that a “god� they choose to favor and/or promote is real, I ask for evidence. They make excuses and often insist that one should believe based on “signs� or “faith� or the hope of getting into “heaven� in an “afterlife� as supposedly promised by their favored “god�.

Most ardent believers fail to recognize that THEY reject “gods� other than their favorite as being “false� – with no more reason than they offer to show their favorite is real.

Now the Holy Spirit teaches. If we are called we are to be under tutors for a time and then....the Spirit teaches.

You hear a television preacher and choose to believe that what he says is truthful, accurate and applicable. Others, me included, ask for evidence that what is told is true and accurate.

What I teach is there for all to consider.

As part of that “consideration� I ask for evidence of truth. When the “evidence� offered is only personal opinions, testimonials and reference to ancient tales, I am not convinced (which seems to confound and/or irritate some religionists who have nothing else to offer as “evidence� but expect to be believed “on faith� or by emotional appeal).

If you are not willing to question truth and accuracy of what you are told, that is your business, but do not tell me that it is true unless you can substantiate the claim with something more than emotionalism, opinion and biblical quotes.

It is substantiated in the ONLY TRUE source.

I do not accept your claim of “the only true source� – and ask for evidence of truth (beyond sayings copied from the source you are trying to prove true).

My emotion has nothing to do with seeing what is shown. It is either there or not there no matter how I feel about it. I can't make it happen by feelings.

What you are citing is nothing BUT emotion – attachment of “significance� to the occurrence of certain numerals.

Then my suggestion....don't pay attention. I know what I see.

If you think that I should not pay attention, why insist to me that there is “meaning� in clock digits?

You CANNOT show that the occurrence of numerals has significance EXCEPT in your emotions (not in the real world and not as evidence of anything to others).

And I can't show that you're an actual, real, live person. There is no evidence of it.

Correction: You CAN show through investigation that I am an “actual, real, live person� who lives in Arkansas IF you chose to actually learn by effort rather than to do nothing and claim that you cannot show my existence.

I can show you exactly how to verify my existence by personal experience. That you will not do so is your limitation, not mine.

Notice that I do not try to convince you to believe that I am real. If you choose to believe otherwise, it makes no difference – I am not attempting to convince anyone to believe (or disbelieve) anything – but only to THINK and make sound decisions based on evaluation of evidence from the natural world they inhabit.

I mean I see your words, but maybe I just feel like I'm seeing your words.

Correct – you may choose to believe that if you wish.

How, exactly, can you determine with certainty that your “signs� are from the “holy spirit�?

According to Christian lore, “Satan� is fully capable of deceiving humans and is supernatural. What makes you SURE that you are not being deceived by “Satan� when you see 4:11?

No “spirit� (“holy� or otherwise) has “spoken� to me or sent “signs�. I leave that sort of thing to others who prefer to orient their lives around supposed “teachings� or “signs� (none of which can be shown to others as being truthful or accurate or applicable).

Signs are given. Signs are not always recognized and even if recognized are not accepted by many.

“Signs� are numbers on a clock or page numbers in texts?

What, exactly, might those “signs� indicate and who are they sent by (and how is that known)?

Notice that you have not addressed the question, “How, exactly, can you determine with certainty that your “signs� are from the “holy spirit�?

You may disparage it all you wish. I know what I know.

Those who KNOW are not open to learning. That is a major failing in overconfidence in one’s presumed knowledge and a characteristic of many religious “teachings� that proclaim absolute knowledge.

Perhaps if others read this they too will recognize them for what they are and not listen to the ridicule.

Is it considered “ridicule� when one points out that occurrence of digits on a clock have not been shown to be “signs� from invisible forces – let alone identification of the supposed source?

Perhaps you need to consider that your sign is given you in discussions such as these....remember, the children given to Him are for signs.

I do not look to children for enlightenment. I look to well informed adults who display judgment, discernment and knowledge, and who can substantiate what they say, whose claims I can verify using independent sources.

Others often choose to take the easy route of following the “guidance� of ancient storytellers. That is their choice.

The children I speak of are guided by the Holy Spirit. They are sons of man and sons of God.....

So say tales in a book written by ancient storytellers and religious promoters.

I am not debating “those who believe in thousands of gods�, and am not debating “Paul�, I am debating YOU. Speak for yourself. Defend your claims – if you can.

You evidently cannot defend the claim that your favorite “god� knows everything. I agree.

Then why did YOU bring up the "thousands of gods?" Why defend what is self-evident. The creation is here, all around us. It didn't pop out of a bottle.

Notice that you have not even attempted to show that your favorite “god� “knows everything�. Nice dodge.

I mentioned the thousands of proposed “gods� to make the point that similar claims are made for many competing god theories and proposals – and that none of the claims can be shown to be any more truthful or accurate than any other.

Christians pick one “god� as a favorite after reading a book and listening to promoters. Others pick different “gods� as favorites for the same reason. Who has legitimate claim to truth and why?

When serpents (snakes) come into my life, I often kill, skin, fry and eat them. Does that mean that “Satan� is dead and eaten?

That particular serpent can't be skinned and eaten. He lives in many now, as the Holy Spirit lives in many. His presence is obvious in some, they are already his and now he goes after others...Christians. [/quote]
Can you show with something other than tales from religious promotional material that a snake is a “Satan�?

And I don't at all doubt that you believe you have superior knowledge...

As usual, when attempting to speak for the minds of others, you are dead wrong.

I make NO CLAIM to superiority of knowledge (publicly or privately). Instead, I state openly that in some subject areas I may have more knowledge and experience than others might have – and that in those same areas there are people who have more knowledge and experience than I have.

I acknowledge openly NOT being a bible scholar; however, I am not ignorant of the bible or of some Christian doctrine and dogma.

I consider my knowledge of Earth science to be greater than that of those who have not studied the subject and whose primary source of information about natural science subjects apparently does not extend past the writings of people thousands of years ago (as though knowledge has not advanced since that time).

calling the truth delusion.

Kindly quote verbatim any statement from me that calls the truth delusion – or withdraw the comment as required in honorable debate.

This is the the great battle of Armageddon going on right now. Sides are being chosen, swords are drawn...the battle rages.

Sure

No for the words aren't mine. They are His Words, His truths, His instructions and He knows what's best.

Do you present “his words� as truth? Do you claim they are true? If so you have acquired the burden of substantiating the claim – in honorable debate.

Others are convinced that words written elsewhere are from “gods� who “know best�. Is in not a bit egocentric to claim to know what “words� are appropriate for OTHERS – better than they know for themselves?

[whirlwind]

.


(snip) Too much repitition.

Thank you. That is exactly my point. If a person raises money to teach what s/he promotes, that IS pursuing a personal agenda.

If someone raises money to teach AGAINST religion, are they raising money to promote their agenda?

His purpose is to bring souls to God through understanding. His personal agenda is a good one...one I share.

Can you show with something other than tales from religious promotional material that a snake is a “Satan�?

Why would I use anything other than then very book it was written in? Believe as you wish Z. If you want to see the serpent as a literal snake...okay.

[S-word]

Quote: whirlwind; All believers know He came as a human. The antichirst wouldn't be able to deceive anyone by denying that. But, that He comes "in the flesh," is another story. He comes in our flesh. He dwells IN US. That is the denial meant to deceive....

S-words Response; All true believers know that Jesus came as a human being born of human parents, it was the deceivers who came preaching a different Jesus than the man who was chosen to speak in God’s name and to say only that which he was commanded to say by the Lord God our saviour, Jehovah/“Who I Am,� the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18; I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc. When you quote the words spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, you are quoting the words spoken by our Lord and saviour Jehovah/�Who I Am.�

In Acts 3: 22-26; Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, and the people of those days knew that Jesus was not the Lord our saviour, when they cried out, “Blessed is He who comes in THE NAME OF THE LORD. 1st Timothy 1: 1; From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of GOD OUR SAVIOUR and Christ Jesus our hope. Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus. “It was not the man Jesus, But the lord God our saviour, who said through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, “Before Abraham was, I Am.�

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.� The Lords Day is the Sabbath, the seventh period of one thousand years from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930. Acts 17: 31; For He, (Who I Am, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) has fixed a day (One Thousand Years) in which He will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN He has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Any words that you would care to quote from the New Testament that were spoken through the mouth of Jesus, are not his words, but the words of Enoch, our living indwelling ancestral Father, who was the only man to have been redeemed from the previous world, and to have received the lot of eternal life, and who chose the man Jesus as the first of many brothers to receive a portion of his glorious immortal body which is torn asunder and poured out as fire on all who believe his words as spoken through his obedient servant Jesus.

Docetism, is the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit, and this was the teaching of the deceivers, who refused to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, and although that false teaching had begun in the days of John, by the 2nd century it had theoretically been stamped out. Nevertheless, those people who had been deceived by that evolving false concept still held the belief that the prophet Jesus, had been to much of a god, or rather THE GOD, to have had normal bodily needs such as eating, drinking and excretion, as exemplified in the following letter written by Clement the bishop of Alexandria, who was responsible also for the “Secret Gospel Letter.�

“It would be ridiculous to imagine that the body of the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of Man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.�

It was upon this false evolving teaching, or added yeast, which continues to swell and contaminate the unleavened bread that came down from our future, that the universal church, was founded and established by Constantine the non-christian in 325 AD, which church taught and continues to teach, that an immortal god who was supposedly the co-creator of the cosmos, came down to earth and crawled into the womb of their imaginary virgin, where his father and co-creator of the cosmos, then formed for him a humanlike body which was not of the seed of Adam and not under the penalty of the sin that all human beings who descend from Adam inherit.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus, does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.�

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.�

[S-word]

.

Deceivers teach others to not believe the words of the Lord.

There are thousands of different “interpretations� or “beliefs� of what the “words of the lord� actually are or mean. Which one is right?

If the teachers teach what they honestly think the “words of the lord� say and mean AND those words and meanings are different from what you "teach" or preach, WHICH of you is “deceiving� and why?

Deception such as taught in seminaries that tell their students the Old Testament prophecies aren't prophetic!

Do you follow ALL the words of the Old Testament, or just some selected words?

For instance, do you religiously avoid wearing garments made of two different materials? Do you avoid doing any “work� on the Sabbath (including such simple thing as collecting sticks for a bonfire)? Would you stone to death family and friends if they suggest worshiping differently (or a different “god�)?

The deceptive teachings of the deceivers is not hard to find.

1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus, does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.�

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.�

The King James reads....

11 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

There is a difference in coming "as a human being" and coming "in the flesh."


All believers know He came as a human. The antichirst wouldn't be able to deceive anyone by denying that. But, that He comes "in the flesh," is another story. He comes in our flesh. He dwells IN US. That is the denial meant to deceive....

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It was these deceivers, supported by the non-christian King Constantine, who established the false universal church in 325 AD, that preached a totally different Jesus as to the man the was born of human parents as verified by the scriptures; and it was those deceivers who attempted to change the prophecy in Isaiah 7: 14; which states that an “Almah,� (Unmarried woman, ) would be with child ect, into the greatest of all lies, that a “virgin� conceived and gave birth to a son, who was in fact According to those deceiver, an immortal God, who was supposedly the co-creator of the cosmos who came down to earth and entered the womb of their so-called Virgin, where his father, with whom he had created the cosmos, created a human like body for him which was not of the seed of Adam, from which every human being is a descendant.

Not every human is a descendant of Adam. That is impossible and that is not written. It is taught but not written. I don't at all agree with your concept of the virgin birth nor do I understand quite what you're saying.

Adam was created according to the Bible, on the 7th day or the 7th generation of the universe, and He was created all alone before plants or animal were formed on a barren earth that had within it the seeds of a previous age that had been destroyed and all humans have descended from him. Eve who was taken from Adam, is the mother of the body of mankind.

The Hebrew word for "Virgin" is "Bethulah," which is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is mentioned. If it was the Lord's intention to convey, through his prophet Isaiah, the message that a virgin would be with child, Isaiah would have used this term, but as that was never the intention of the Lord, the word "Almah" which means “an unmarried female� would be with child and bear a son, was used.

The word “Virgin� in reference to the mother of Jesus was first introduced in the 5th century Latin Bible ‘The Vulgate,’ due mainly to the effort of Jerome who was commissioned to make a revision of the books that had already been translated to Latin by, in most cases, persons unknown, and with those books translated by Jerome himself, which revision was completed in 405 A.D. became the official bible of the universal church that had been established by its unorthodox and non-christian champion, ‘King Constantine,’ who had his father Constantius deified and was accorded the same honour himself after his death.

In transcribing the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an “Almah� an “unmarried female," would be with child and bear a son,� into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for ‘virgin,’ the authors of the Septuagint and Matthew were forced to use the Greek word ‘Parthenos,’ which carries a basic meaning of ‘girl,’ and denotes ‘virgin’ only by implication.
‘Parthenos,’ was often used in reference to non-virgins who had never been married. Homer uses it in reference to unmarried girls who were no longer virgins, and Homer was the standard textbook for learning Greek all throughout antiquity, so any writer of Greek, including Matthew, who transcribed Isaiah’s words, (An unmarried woman would be with child etc) while being well aware of this words versatile and indefinite meaning; was in no way implying that Mary was a virgin.

For the Hebrew has a specific term for ‘virgin,’ “Bethulah� which word, as previouely stated, is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to, which is obviously not the woman/Almah, who is mentioned in Isaiah 7:14.

Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, gives the meaning of the Hebrew word “Almah,� which is used in Isaiah 7: 14; as, (Concealment: Unmarried woman.) After Mary, the obedient handmaid to her indwelling spirit, had told the angel three months earlier that she was at that time still a virgin, She then went from her home town of Nazareth to Jerusalem to join with many other members of the family of Elizabeth the cousin of Mary, who were of the daughters of Levi, where she must have met for the first time and was spiritually attracted to the biological father of Jesus, who was Joseph the Levite, who had come from Cyprus. Undoubtedly, they were at that time, unaware that they shared a common father, "Heli" the Grand-father of Jesus. The act of obedience from which the child of Gods promise was conceived in the womb of the “Almah,� unmarried woman, was concealed in the shadow beneath the wings of the Lord of spirits. Please don’t be concerned by the added interpolation in brackets, in Luke 3: 23; (As was supposed) by those deceiver who would have you believe that the Hebrew word “Almah,� means virgin.

Isaac is a prototype of Jesus and like Jesus was born of Gods promise according to the workings of the Holy Spirit. Both Isaac and Jesus were the sons of parents who were both sired by the one Father. ‘Terah,’ is the father to both Abraham and Sarah, while ‘Heli,’ is the father of both Joseph the Levite and Mary. Both Mary and Sarah were informed by an angel that they would become Pregnant and bear the son of Gods promise. Isaac was offered up as a sacrifice by his physical father, Jesus was offered up by his spiritual father, who, after he (Jesus) hade been made perfect in obedience through his sufferings, said to him “You are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father,� and Isaac was offered up on the very spot where Jesus was crucified.

In Luke 3: 23; you will find the genealogy of Jesus, who is the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, and Joseph the biological Father of Jesus is about the 40th descendant of Nathan the priest of David who became his son-in-law, Nathan was the half brother to Solomon the biological son of King David, as they both had the same mother Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite who is the biological father of Nathan and a member of the tribe of Levi by his marriage to Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel, the son of Obed-Edom, who is a descendant of Moses the Levite through his second wife, the daughter of Hobab, one of the two father-in-laws of Moses. Jethro the father of Zipporah the first wife of Moses, being the other.

This Joseph the Levite who came from Cyprus, who had a half sister by the name Mary, who was the adopted mother of John who Jesus had surnamed “Son of Thunder,� and who is identified with the young John who was surnamed “Mark,� which means ‘Hammer,’ or “The Hammerer.� After the death of Jesus, Joseph, who had been surnamed Barnabus, took with him to the land of Pamphyila, his half sister Mary and her adopted son John, who was surnamed "Mark," and the grave sites of Mary and John, can be visited today in the town of Ephesus.

[Misty]

I think Mary got pregnant in the usual way, certainly not by the deity. Joseph did the decent thing and the story about the virgin birth is spin to cover up the unfortunate conception of Jesus.

[Goat]

I think Mary got pregnant in the usual way, certainly not by the deity. Joseph did the decent thing and the story about the virgin birth is spin to cover up the unfortunate conception of Jesus.

Of course, it could very well be that Joesph was the father. If he wasn't, then Jesus would be a mamzer, and not allowed in the synagogues.

The stories told decades later to make Jesus' birth seem miraculous did her more injury than anything else.