Is Rape just relatively wrong? Or ABSOLUTELY WRONG?

[steven84]

Mark Spence the Dean of S.O.B.E. (School Of Biblical Evangelism) encounters two atheists that were waiting for Ray Comfort and his crew to show up for some Open-Air preaching. SEE HERE:

Mark's first heckler was Bruce who ultimately concluded that morality is decided upon by "majority rule of a society." That is the very logical equation that justified Nazi Germany during the holocaust!

Frank said morality is genetic. This logical equation makes a man like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer justified in their actions. They were dancing to the exact tune their DNA was tuned play. By Frank's logic there wasn't really anything wrong with these men...they were just unfashionable to the times. No right, no wrong just DNA and the will to live. Frank ultimately said we need to be more opened-minded to rape...the means would justify the ends according to him.

Mark unravels this faulty logic and reveals it for what it is. Moral Relativism, a view in which there in no real right or wrong...just fashions and changes. A world in which a mother Teresa and Hitler are both validly equal in the ways they lived their lives.

The only way to justify and kind of Absolute morality (which is embedded in our thinking) is to posit a Moral Law Giver which is the very God and Designer of our God Given Conscience that works as a Moral compass...convicting us and pointing us in the direction of the Savior. The Law of God is a school master that drives us to the cross!

Out of the three men in this debate who’s points were the most valid and realistic?

Is there any better way to take on a moral relativist? For instance does anyone know a quicker way to cut to the heart of the issue resolved?

Is there really a “Right� and “Wrong� in the objective/absolute sense? Or is it really just a matter of opinions?

You decide which side you fall on:

To the the Moral Absolutist...rape is an atrocity, it is the epitome of WRONG.

To the moral relativist...rape is merely a matter of preference and opinion. Hitler had his season of being the RIGHT kind of guy.

SEE MARK'S ENCOUNTER HERE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_kf3EgU6lk

[Crazy Ivan]

So, in a nutshell, this is what I think is alsarg72 logical process...

- alsarg72 thinks certain behaviors are "heinous".

- "Heinous" behaviors are absolutely wrong... because they're "heinous".

- Absolutely wrong behaviors means they're wrong regardless of whether or not someone else thinks they're "heinous", otherwise they'd be relative to "heinosity".

- So being "heinous" doesn't actually factor into whether or not they're absolutely wrong.

Makes perfect sense...

[alsarg72]

Instead of doing a bad job of reinterpreting what I've said into nonsense you can leave other people to interpret what I've said, and actually explain and justify your position, which you continue to not do.

[Crazy Ivan]

Instead of doing a bad job of reinterpreting what I've said into nonsense(...)

Notice you previously stated:

There are also heinous crimes which you will not condemn because you are a "moral relativist".

So, these crimes you mention were in opposition to the crimes you're a relativist about. Those on which, as you said, "morality is very grey and worth of deep debate". So please, if "heinosity" is not what determines the absolute quality of the crime, what is? I'm not reinterpreting anything. It is you who should reevaluate your arguments.

(...)you can leave other people to interpret what I've said(...)

A courtesy you haven't extended to me, insisting I failed to explain myself properly:

(...)and actually explain and justify your position, which you continue to not do.

I have explained my position thoroughly. But you haven't explained why rape should be considered absolutely wrong, as opposed to just relatively wrong, beyond "heinosity", which apparently is now nonsense. You're referring to your own arguments as nonsense.

[alsarg72]

You continue to just attack things I have said, including out of context. You have not explained your side of the the argument at all - You have not defined nor argued in favor of a relative morality. You have not explained how it applies to any of my examples. You are wasting my time.

I will make you happy. You have won the debate. A+. Bravo! Buy yourself a drink.

PS: I have a new theory. You thought I was a Christian and you just came on here to piss off Christians so you took the opposing viewpoint to f*** with me, and so you don't have anything to present to support your argument, and so you just attack.

[Crazy Ivan]

Again, my position is simple. I'm a moral relativist. That means I perceive the morality of a behavior as relative to the people involved. If it's unlawful, the people involved are a criminal, a victim, and the observer. Assuming I'm the observer, the behavior is immoral to me, and to the victim (most of the times). From the criminal's perspective, it might or it might not be, depending on how the criminal perceives his own behavior. This is what RELATIVE means. "Relative morality" is morality relative to the perceived quality of the behavior. If it was ABSOLUTELY wrong, perceptions would not matter.

What you have offered to distinguish ABSOLUTE from RELATIVE was the "heinous" quality of the behavior. That is a PERCEPTION... "hatefully or shockingly evil". YOURS is the complicate position, not mine. You're the one with a double standard regarding the morality of a crime, which is solely based on your own personal feelings towards the behavior.

[Crazy Ivan]

And so I'll ask again, as simply as possible:

What is the quality of a behavior that makes it absolutely wrong?

[Jester]

Moderator Comment

You continue to just attack things I have said, including out of context. You have not explained your side of the the argument at all - You have not defined nor argued in favor of a relative morality. You have not explained how it applies to any of my examples. You are wasting my time.

I will make you happy. You have won the debate. A+. Bravo! Buy yourself a drink.

PS: I have a new theory. You thought I was a Christian and you just came on here to piss off Christians so you took the opposing viewpoint to f*** with me, and so you don't have anything to present to support your argument, and so you just attack.

Posts which comment negatively about the character of others, as well as those which do not contribute the the specifics of the discussion are against the rules. In addition, profanity is against the rules - even if several of the letters are replaced.

[Flail]

And so I'll ask again, as simply as possible:

What is the quality of a behavior that makes it absolutely wrong?

I agree with you. Society determines morality and Gods have nothing to do with it. If there were only one person in the world there would be no immorality. Groups of people living in proximity create morality over time to gain order and control thru contracts both explicit and implicit. Sometimes they add a concocted God to the equation for emphasis.

[freeman]

It is absolutely wrong because the Word of God teaches us that sexual immorality is a sin. It does not matter that you belong to a church and profess to be religious. Sin is still sin. Rape is considered sexual immorality.
Here are a few Bible verses on the subject.
1. Numbers 25:1
While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women,
2. Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
3. Mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
4. Acts 15:20
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
5. Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
6. Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
7. Romans 13:13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
8. 1 Corinthians 5:1
[ Expel the Immoral Brother! ] It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
9. 1 Corinthians 6:12
"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.
10. 1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
11. 1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
12. 1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
13. Galatians 5:19
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
14. Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
15. Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
16. 1 Thessalonians 4:3
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
17. Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
18. Revelation 2:14
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.
19. Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
20. Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

[Flashpoint]

It is absolutely wrong because the Word of God teaches us that sexual immorality is a sin. It does not matter that you belong to a church and profess to be religious. Sin is still sin. Rape is considered sexual immorality.
Here are a few Bible verses on the subject.
1. Numbers 25:1
While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women,
2. Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
3. Mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
4. Acts 15:20
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
5. Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
6. Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
7. Romans 13:13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
8. 1 Corinthians 5:1
[ Expel the Immoral Brother! ] It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
9. 1 Corinthians 6:12
"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.
10. 1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
11. 1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
12. 1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
13. Galatians 5:19
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
14. Ephesians 5:3
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
15. Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
16. 1 Thessalonians 4:3
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
17. Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
18. Revelation 2:14
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.
19. Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
20. Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

You can quote from an ancient manuscript, but that doesn't prove much. Many other religions aren't as obsessed with sex as the christians, so they'd probably use their ancient books to disagree with you.