Donkey Junk and Horse Wads

[Icarus Fallen]

Men and Brethren (you too, Misty, Lucia, et al),

Ezekiel 23 is a fascinating exercise in extended metaphor, in which Samaria and Jerusalem are portrayed as a sister tandem of adulterous prostitutes, both of whom were figuratively married to the GOD of the bible. Samaria is played by Oholah in this lusty tale of intrigue, while the role of Jerusalem is brought to life by the slightly more promiscuous Oholibah. Because the entirety of the story in this chapter is clearly metaphorical, it seems exegetically safe to assume that all of the images (some of which are quite graphic) may bear some degree of poetic significance to certain historical events and circumstances involving the people of Samaria and Jerusalem. In that vein, I humbly seek the guidance of those better versed than myself in the area of biblical interpretation to help me understand the deeper significance and/or correlation to historical events and circumstances of some of these images.

For starters, let’s consider verse 20, which describes, among other things, the actions of the second sister (Jerusalem):

20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (NIV) [emphasis IF’s]

Donkey-like genitals and horse-like seminal emissions?

Does anyone have any idea as to what these poetic allusions might be referencing about the Israelites' time in Egypt?

Thanks, in advance, for any help.

Note to Mods: I realize this thread may be construed as a violation of rule #7, particularly in the eyes of the elderly or those of the otherwise sanctimonious; but, rest assured, I'm totally sincere in my quest to better understand the relevant passages!

[Icarus Fallen]

Brethren,

Another puzzling example from the same bawdy tale apparently refers to similar and possibly related events in the 'lives' of both sisters.

First for Samaria in verse 8:

8She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. [emphasis IF's]

Then for Jerusalem in verse 21:

21So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled. [emphasis IF's]

What might the divinely-inspired author have been driving at with these sexually-explicit (if not downright perverted) images?

I understand that some of the language and the extended metaphor itself were likely chosen for ‘shock value’, and I’m fully aware of the broader historical context in which the author was supposedly 'inspired' to write, but my questions are concerning potential correlations of specific images to specific events or circumstances from the Israelites' experiences in Egypt. Because, beyond the shock, awe, and disgustingness of the thought of “lovers� with donkey-like genitals shooting horse-like wads of semen -- “pouring out their lust�, so to speak, onto the “virgin bosoms/young breasts� they “fondled and caressed� -- the question, as to whether these images refer to specific events from the Israelites’ time in Egyptian captivity …or only generally to idolatry wholesale, still looms largely unanswered after all these years.

[Icarus Fallen]

A note of general interest: in Chapter 4 of Hosea, the prophet warns the people of Israel against having sex with temple prostitutes in rituals honoring Canaanite fertility gods.

But when and where were these religious traditions initially adopted by some of the people living in and around Israel at that time?

We know that Baal and Asherah preceded Osiris and Isis in Egypt. Could it be that Ezekiel's metaphor refers, at least in part, to the sort of temple prostitution later spoken of by Hosea?

[Icarus Fallen]

Christians,

If I can't get some answers here (in the Bible Study forum on a DB devoted to Christian Apologetics), where can I go for guidance and help in understanding 'The Word of [your] God'?!

I'm in spiritual turmoil here!

[Cathar1950]

There are some doubts about Israel being in Egypt but it sure looks like the writer spent time with Whores or at least used the ideas for his writings. Of course Egypt and whores might be poetic ways of writing. There seems to be a tribe or two that was from Egypt or at least might have been subjects of Egypt after all Egypt did control the Levant a number of times through out the centuries.
Some of the peoples did flee to Egypt before the destruction of Jerusalem long before this writing was written.
Persia saw these people as pro Babylon.

[Icarus Fallen]

Cathar,

A couple of points:

First, the sheer ridiculousness and hyperbole of the OT is certainly not limited to the writings of Ezekiel - in fact, some crucial aspects of Ezekiel's depiction of the sibling hookers (specifically those involving the consequences of their prostitution and adultery) line up nicely with other OT accounts of the treatment of women found guilty of such crimes.

Second, but more importantly, the metaphor itself appears elsewhere in the scriptures before and after Ezekiel's especially graphic version is thought to have been penned (appearing in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Nahum, and so on...) -- meaning there's reason to believe that the advent of the metaphor likely preceded the hypothetical migration of the early 6th to late 5th centuries BC.

[Cathar1950]

Cathar,

A couple of points:

First, the sheer ridiculousness and hyperbole of the OT is certainly not limited to the writings of Ezekiel - in fact, some crucial aspects of Ezekiel's depiction of the sibling hookers (specifically those involving the consequences of their prostitution and adultery) line up nicely with other OT accounts of the treatment of women found guilty of such crimes.

Second, but more importantly, the metaphor itself appears elsewhere in the scriptures before and after Ezekiel's especially graphic version is thought to have been penned (appearing in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Nahum, and so on...) -- meaning there's reason to believe that the advent of the metaphor likely preceded the hypothetical migration of the early 6th to late 5th centuries BC.

Like child sacrifice there is an afterlife that last for centuries even after the practice is gone.
I would think that they were probably temple whores.
AS I recall Ezekiel was exile post exile as were much of the writings of the prophets even if the prophets were before.
With the 7th century prophets you have the history before them written after the prophets.
Jeremiah say they were never given commands to sacrifice children while Ezekiel say they were.

[Icarus Fallen]

Cathar,

The following excerpt comes from Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible:

…Human sacrifice as more generally referred to in the phrase, “the one who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire,� is frequently and exclusively attributed to Canaanite origins by some biblical writers (e.g. Deut. 12:31). Nonetheless, some form of human sacrifice was apparently part of the Yahwistic cult in pre-exilic (and perhaps exilic) times. Isa. 30:33 clearly connects Yahweh and human sacrifice at the Topheth (read Molech for melek in v33b?); if no such connection was intended in this allusion to Assyria’s anticipated destruction, one would have expected some disclaimer to that effect. The sacrifice of "the firstborn to Yahweh" and the Molech sacrifice were probably closely related, if not one and the same cult. Although the former required that the firstborn sons be sacrificed to Yahweh while the latter listed as sacrifices children generally (of both sexes), the fact that daughters could legally substitute for sons as firstborn heirs favors the equation of these two cults (cf. Num. 27:1-8 and the texts from Emar and Nuzi regarding the legal substitution of daughters for sons within the context of inheritance). The two traditions might reflect the same cult but from complementary perspectives, one from the more particular and the other from the more general (or is one a subset of the other?). Therefore, texts that refer to the sacrifice of the firstborn to Yahweh (e.g., Gen. 22:1-14; Exod. 13:2, 12-13, 15; Mic. 6:6-7) can be related to the Molech cult. Molech’s associations with Baal (rather than Yahweh) in biblical traditions (cf. Jer. 2:23; 19:3; 32:35) are more likely part of the inventive Deuteronomistic rhetorical polemic to “Canaanize� what was formerly a non-Deuteronomistic, but Yahwistic, Israelite practice of human sacrifice.[…]

Seems pertinent, no?

Enter stage left, Lilith: a name which appears only once in the OT (Isaiah 34:15), where it's translated as "great owl" in the KJV. Her name also appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Talmud, and the Zohar. It’s especially noteworthy, that according to Sumerian folklore, she’s associated with fire, earthquakes, and yes, the ritualistic sacrifice of children. The relevant artwork generally portrays her with bird-like feet that are usually clutching a corpse, massive wings, and arms with talon-like hands.

It bears mentioning here, that chapter 34 of Isaiah invokes the poetic imagery of the “great owl� in the aftermath of "sacrifice".

Verse 6 reads as follows:

6The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Putting it together, if "Molech" is a term that initially referred to a form of sacrifice (not the various "gods" to whom that type of sacrifice was made), then, hypothetically speaking, the mythology surrounding Lilith could be viewed as a direct link to the biblical imagery of the "great owl", and an indirect link to at least a faction of the OT Jews.

Of course, what any of this has to do donkey dongs and horse spooge is completely beyond me.

[Cathar1950]

Cathar,

The following excerpt comes from Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible:

…Human sacrifice as more generally referred to in the phrase, “the one who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire,� is frequently and exclusively attributed to Canaanite origins by some biblical writers (e.g. Deut. 12:31). Nonetheless, some form of human sacrifice was apparently part of the Yahwistic cult in pre-exilic (and perhaps exilic) times. Isa. 30:33 clearly connects Yahweh and human sacrifice at the Topheth (read Molech for melek in v33b?); if no such connection was intended in this allusion to Assyria’s anticipated destruction, one would have expected some disclaimer to that effect. The sacrifice of "the firstborn to Yahweh" and the Molech sacrifice were probably closely related, if not one and the same cult. Although the former required that the firstborn sons be sacrificed to Yahweh while the latter listed as sacrifices children generally (of both sexes), the fact that daughters could legally substitute for sons as firstborn heirs favors the equation of these two cults (cf. Num. 27:1-8 and the texts from Emar and Nuzi regarding the legal substitution of daughters for sons within the context of inheritance). The two traditions might reflect the same cult but from complementary perspectives, one from the more particular and the other from the more general (or is one a subset of the other?). Therefore, texts that refer to the sacrifice of the firstborn to Yahweh (e.g., Gen. 22:1-14; Exod. 13:2, 12-13, 15; Mic. 6:6-7) can be related to the Molech cult. Molech’s associations with Baal (rather than Yahweh) in biblical traditions (cf. Jer. 2:23; 19:3; 32:35) are more likely part of the inventive Deuteronomistic rhetorical polemic to “Canaanize� what was formerly a non-Deuteronomistic, but Yahwistic, Israelite practice of human sacrifice.[…]

Seems pertinent, no?

Enter stage left, Lilith: a name which appears only once in the OT (Isaiah 34:15), where it's translated as "great owl" in the KJV. Her name also appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Talmud, and the Zohar. It’s especially noteworthy, that according to Sumerian folklore, she’s associated with fire, earthquakes, and yes, the ritualistic sacrifice of children. The relevant artwork generally portrays her with bird-like feet that are usually clutching a corpse, massive wings, and arms with talon-like hands.

It bears mentioning here, that chapter 34 of Isaiah invokes the poetic imagery of the “great owl� in the aftermath of "sacrifice".

Verse 6 reads as follows:

6The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Putting it together, if "Molech" is a term that initially referred to a form of sacrifice (not the various "gods" to whom that type of sacrifice was made), then, hypothetically speaking, the mythology surrounding Lilith could be viewed as a direct link to the biblical imagery of the "great owl", and an indirect link to at least a faction of the OT Jews.

Of course, what any of this has to do donkey dongs and horse spooge is completely beyond me.

That seems to go with what I have read.
It relates as practices, ritual and myth often live one hundreds of years even after they no longer make sense.
When this stuff was being written there were temple and cult prostitutes.
Of course this stuff was written to keep the people from others when others are seen as threats.
It is likely there was Egyptian influence as they had off and on controlled the area and were sometime allies or enemies as seen by one group or another religious group. There were a number of them competing for declaring God's pronouncements as did other nations.

[Icarus Fallen]

...Molech’s associations with Baal (rather than Yahweh) in biblical traditions (cf. Jer. 2:23; 19:3; 32:35) are more likely part of the inventive Deuteronomistic rhetorical polemic to “Canaanize� what was formerly a non-Deuteronomistic, but Yahwistic, Israelite practice of human sacrifice.[…][emphasis IF's]

The more I think about it in the terms highlighted above, the more sense I can make of the apparent rhetorical departure of the 'Major Prophets'.