What about Satan?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:15 pm

Often, in these forums, we are debating whether or not prayer "works". This usually takes the form of the christians explaining away the fact that we can never seem to detect the influence of prayer. It's always "God doesn't do tests" or "God does what's best for you, not necessarily what you ask for" or "Sometimes god says no".

So let's try the opposition. Will Satan answer a prayer in an unambiguous fashion? If not, why not? Does Satan have any power in the world today? Does he have a will independant of YHWH?

We often hear from christians about Satan or demons influencing people, or people working for them. So it should be possible to interact with them in some way.

Is it possible to summon a demon? Can a person converse with Satan?

How about if I ask Satan to cause me to sin? For example, I do not drink alcohol. If I pray to Satan to make me an alcoholic, will he? If not, why not?

DanZ

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:39 pm

Simply because God WANTS a relationship with you, and everyone, He is not satisfied with the status quo because it keeps you seperated from Him.

Then if god is not satisfied he would have a strong motive to reveal himself and/or answer prayers. I noticed that you answered each of my questions except the one about whether god would answer a prayer of mine. I take that as a tacit admission that you know he won't.

So we come back full-circle once again. In spite of the fact that you ascribe massively different motives and intentions to Satan and YHWH, they still act in exactly the same way.

DanZ

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:16 am

You assume too much, and incorrectly at that. You assume that since I do not answer for what one will or won't do that it is some sort of admission on my part. It is simply the fact that I am unable to answer what God will or won't do in all cases. Take that as a tacit admission that I am not God nor do I dictate His actions.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:41 am

Take that as a tacit admission that I am not God nor do I dictate His actions.

Fine. But what are your expectations? Do you pray? If so, why do you do so if you have no idea whether or not it works?

I take it as the Guilty Little Secret of christians that they know deep down that prayer is bogus, but do it anyway because they are afraid to be the one to point out the emporer is naked.

DanZ

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:28 am

Do you pray? If so, why do you do so if you have no idea whether or not it works?

How did you come to this conclusion? Where was it indicated that I or any other christian has NO IDEA whether or not it works? I don't recall reading in this thread anything that would lead one to assume such.

I take it as the Guilty Little Secret of christians that they know deep down that prayer is bogus, but do it anyway because they are afraid to be the one to point out the emporer is naked

I can understand that you would want to believe this, it is safe and such an unfounded assumption allows you to feel confident in your disbelief.

I cannot speak for all Christians and their belief in prayer, but I can say that Christians in general believe in the power of prayer, and that we believe God answers our prayers according to His will and purpose.

What I find too regularly is that non-believers seek evidence for answered prayers for the sole purpose of trying to disprove those answers are truth. They seek them out only to attempt to show them as 'coincidence' or some such. That is all good. No one is asking anyone else to believe that God's answers to my prayers are truly God answering. My faith and relationship with Him, is just that - MY faith and relationship, I am the only one who needs to believe it.

I was once asked if I have ever had answers to my prayers. I was assurred that the question was genuine and that it was asked for the sole purpose of understanding, although I suspected otherwise. My answer was simple: That I am alive today is an answer to my prayers.

What proceeded from that was a litany of arguments against my belief, an effort to dissuade me or anyone else from believing that the fact of my contiued life was an answer to prayer - personally I have little interest in such exercises. I know the condition of my physical self and the medical prognosis and the unexpected and medically unexplainable longevity I am enjoying. I can faithfully and confidently connect my prayers and the prayers of others on my behalf to that longevity.

Coincidence or answered prayer? The answer to that is dependent upon your personal beliefs. Neither are unreasonable, neither are empircally provable.

However, this is not the issue truly at hand is it? You asked if God or Satan would answer a prayer of yours, and you apparently do not accept that people cannot answer for God or satan. I would suggest going to the source if you truly want an answer. Don't ask me if Fred will give you money if you ask him, for I am not Fred. Go ask Fred if you really want to know.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:43 pm

You asked if God or Satan would answer a prayer of yours, and you apparently do not accept that people cannot answer for God or satan.

Strange. You entered this thread with a pretty clear statement about what Satan wanted.

I constantly hear christians talking about what god wants, and what god doesn't want. And about what Satan wants and doesn't want. There are whole libraries full of church doctrine relating to god and his will.

But suddenly everyone falls silent as soon as someone suggests a means of telling whether god, Satan, and/or prayer are real.

DanZ

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:37 pm

It is pretty clear what God wants - He wants you to be part of His family, for you to join with Him for eternity. It is pretty clear what satan wants, he wants you not to be part of God's family and to be seperated from God for eternity.

As for testing God or satan, you choose to do what you will it is neither here nor there to me. Scripture tells us not to tempt God, but since you don't really believe in Him it really doesn't matter does it?

As for a means of telling whether or not God, satan, and prayer are real, it is a senseless challenge. God will not come down and say 'hey' in person to you just to get you to believe He is real. He has set the places and put His instructions and expectations in place already. Satan may or may not appear to you in person, that is his choice, but in your case he would have no need to because your unbelief of him and God are just as good to him as if you worshipped him - it gets him what he wants, your eternal seperation from God.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:21 am

RevJP wrote:... but in your case he would have no need to because your unbelief of him and God are just as good to him as if you worshipped him - it gets him what he wants, your eternal seperation from God.

Why does satan want (my) eternal separation from god? What's in it for him?

RevJP · Post by **RevJP** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:39 am

Please. You have demonstrated that you know enough about the bible and Christianity to know the answer to that question. I suspect you are being disingenuous in your asking.

Nyril · Post by **Nyril** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:43 am

Please. You have demonstrated that you know enough about the bible and Christianity to know the answer to that question. I suspect you are being disingenuous in your asking.

Truth be told, I was rather curious about the answer. I'd never actually thought of bernee's question, and I find it to be amazingly interesting.

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:51 am

RevJP wrote:Please. You have demonstrated that you know enough about the bible and Christianity to know the answer to that question. I suspect you are being disingenuous in your asking.

I am never intentionally disingenuous. My biblical knowledge is far from complete. If I knew the answer I would not have asked. I really do not know what a christian would believe satan would gain from his bringing about my separation from god.