to jehova's witness and those ressurection believers

[luearts]

priest: join the christianity and you will be saved
atheist: if i know god and follow his teaching then ill be saved?
priest: yes
atheist: what if i dont know god?
priest: he forgives the poor sould and given another chance
atheir: then why did you tell me?

this may not apply to all christians.

i do believe in god because i feel like i know and feel his existence. perhaps it is the result of growing up as a christian.

how can you really prove that god exists? must death be the answer of knowing everything? but if the bible is right, you will be put to as sleep untill resurection. by then you will know the truth. right now, is the existence of god questionable? can the bible really prove anything? what if the bible was made by philisophers who want to sace people off in order to behave? what if the bible is not as old as we may think it is? still, no one can really tell but faith alone let a person believe whatever this person learns. is god really letting all the disasters happen or is the devil is just as strong? is nature supposed to kill thousands of lives? is mankind just abusive? how can we prove god's existence?

[2timothy316]

For which you still need to provide evidence. Making claims means nothing. Evidence! Evidence! Evidence! My dear fellow.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I owe you nothing in this forum. This forum is to ask a group a question.

I don't need evidence to believe the way I do. Where everything came from can only be extrapolated through reasonable deduction because no one was there when the universe game into being. So you can say whatever you want and I can whatever I want, neither has evidence but for me (what convinces you is your own business) the best answer for me will be a reasonable one. Physics and the laws of nature as we know them to come about by accident is not reasonable and the burden is for someone to show me not evidence but something reasonable. Which so far no one as done that. No evidence of something is not enough to change my mind. If someone had evidence of a physical property coming into existence on its own that would be huge. But I know no one has anything like that. I have only ever seen new life made by something living. Atheism would have me believe the absurd. That everything is here by accident when I have never seen any physical property or new life ever come into existence from something non-living.

[2timothy316]

Think for just a moment if all of these things mentioned didn't have the properties that they have. Trees grew all year round, water wasn't a fluid, what if all liquids didn't act the way they do, and snowflakes didn't crystalize.

I have, and see no reason to suppose any of the hundreds of proposed gods had anything to do with it.

That is not the purpose of this forum to get your opinion as to why you believe as you do or for me to convince you otherwise. It's a forum to ask a group a question. Do you have a question?

[Miles]

For which you still need to provide evidence. Making claims means nothing. Evidence! Evidence! Evidence! My dear fellow.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I owe you nothing in this forum. This forum is to ask a group a question.

I don't need evidence to believe the way I do. Where everything came from can only be extrapolated through reasonable deduction because no one was there when the universe game into being. So you can say whatever you want and I can whatever I want, neither has evidence but for me (what convinces you is your own business) the best answer for me will be a reasonable one. Physics and the laws of nature as we know them to come about by accident is not reasonable and the burden is for someone to show me not evidence but something reasonable. Which so far no one as done that. No evidence of something is not enough to change my mind. If someone had evidence of a physical property coming into existence on its own that would be huge. But I know no one has anything like that. I have only ever seen new life made by something living. Atheism would have me believe the absurd. That everything is here by accident when I have never seen any physical property or new life ever come into existence from something non-living.

"Purpose of this subforum: Questions for a Group

The intent of this subforum is to allow members to ask questions directed towards a particular group of people (Christians, Atheists, Ex-Christians, Democrats, Fundamentalists, etc). Debating is not allowed here. Any comments considered to be demeaning or sarcastic about any groups will not be tolerated.
The purpose here is simply to gain knowledge from others about a particular group. If the conversation leads to something that you want to debate, then open a new debate topic in the appropriate debate subforum."

McCulloch asked: "Where is the evidence that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed?"

JehovahsWitness, [whom I assume was answering as a member of the group Christians] replied not with an answer, but with a question of his own: "When is design not designed?"

To which I [an interested none-member of the group Christians] answered: "How about when it's not. Take the the concentric design of spreading ripples."

To which YOU, 2timothy316, [whom I assume was also answering as a member of the group Christians] said: "Physics was designed."

Which I questioned by asking "By whom? and what's your evidence?" The "whom" prompted by the fact that a design typically has a designer.

Followed by an answer to my question, "Or how about the concentric growth rings of a tree?" which you said "Yes. This was planned."

Wondering about such an assertion, I asked, "By whom? and what's your evidence?" Which you never answered.

Curious about your additional remark in post 8: "The tree was designed to have growth seasons. This causes the rings. Otherwise there would be no rings if trees grew year round." I asked

"Do you believe that every such design of concentric circles of every tree in the forest---all of which do vary to some degree or another---was individually designed?"

To which you said; "Individually designed per tree, no. However, much like just like a computer code can be designed to simulate waves in water in a video game even if each wave was not coded by the programmer, the waves were still designed to be waves. When I see tree rings, I don't stop at 'oh hey look there are rings'. I look at how they are formed."

{See we're having a nice little exchange between a Christian,YOU, who would be a representative of the 'Christian group' and ME, a none-Christian who is here to simply to gain knowledge from others about a particular group (Christians). Particularly, their beliefs.}

You then asked a little offhand question about snowflakes [Note, you and I are still conversing nicely, no debate whatsoever.] "Also, did you know that all snowflakes have 6 sides?"

To which I replied, "No I didn't because it's not true." and then presented evidence that your contention was not true.

Following this you asked me to think about consequences. "What if all liquids didn't act the way they do, and snowflakes didn't crystalize."

To which I replied. "I have,[ thought of such consequences] and see no reason to suppose any of the hundreds of proposed gods had anything to do with it." which I took to be your ultimate aim here (to impress on me the "fact" that your god designed everything.).

You then made a rather odd remark: "Those that can't see the design in our world I can only guess that they really don't want to see it."

Which I saw to be a misapprehension on your part. Pointing out that all symmetry need not arise out of design. That "just because something has symmetry doesn't mean it was designed" and gave as an example " the concentric tree rings of a particular tree, which you've admitted weren't 'individually designed per tree.'"

[Still a reasonable exchange sans any debate. ]

You then closed your reply by asking: "Take any property of physics and now imagine if it did not act the way it does," which I did by saying "It could be that neither of us or any other form of life would have ever arisen." and followed this up by my observation that "just because we have, certainly doesn't mean that a god was necessarily behind it all, especially when we have science showing how unnecessary such a being is for the existence of our physical world." and then presented a remark made by George Carlin.

Yet now, after all this civil exchange between us, you feel it necessary to remark

"I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I owe you nothing in this forum. This forum is to ask a group a question."

But of course you were trying to convince me of something. You were trying to convince me that the universe, earth or humans were deliberately designed.

And of course you don't owe me anything. Nobody does. Yet you continued to have a dialog around the notion that the universe, earth or humans were indeed deliberately designed.

You also pointed out that "This forum is to ask a group a question." to which I can only say, I've yet to see any group to which I can ask a question, leaving me to speak to the one member who is interested, YOU, because you chose to enter a dialog with me. Got a group you can round up? Fine. Bing 'em on.

As for requesting you to back up your claims with evidence. Isn't this what everyone expects of someone making a claim? You say the Sun goes extinct at night and is reborn each morning. Fine, You say Physics was designed, fine, but if you want me to believe such things you're going to have to produce evidence supporting your claim. Otherwise, you'd just be blowing smoke which I have every right to dismiss. Is that what you want? A forum where you can simply spout off claims and then walk away, expecting what? That you should be believed?

.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #13]

I didn't even read this. I saw how long it was and immediately knew I wasn't going to read it. You wasted your time. Could you just keep your posts to questions that you want answered by Jehovah's Witnesses?

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #13]

I didn't even read this. I saw how long it was and immediately knew I wasn't going to read it.

1,008 words is too long? C'mon 2timothy316, you can do it. As I recall from my childhood, comic books had many more words than this. Not as entertaining perhaps, but far more valuable.

You wasted your time.

Then it would be your loss, not mine, but thinking about it . . . . . . . I bet you did read it. .. It's all about you.

Could you just keep your posts to questions that you want answered by Jehovah's Witnesses?

Why? Why would I ever want to limit my posts to questions for Jehovah's Witnesses? After all you didn't limit your questions to JWs, having asked me several questions yourself, and I'm no JW. But the fact is, my very first questions here were addressed to a JW, JehovahsWitness, in post #7, after which YOU asked ME questions in the following post, #8. . Moreover, I don't know what you've been told, but believe it or not JWs don't have a lock on information. In fact, I've found much of their information wanting.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why? Why would I ever want to limit my posts to questions for Jehovah's Witnesses?

Because you are in a subforum dedicated questions for a particular group, in a thread directed to Jehovahs Witnesses. Do you have a question for a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS or not?

If yes ask. If not goodbye.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Miles]

Why? Why would I ever want to limit my posts to questions for Jehovah's Witnesses?

Because you are in a subforum dedicated questions for a particular group, in a thread directed to Jehovahs Witnesses.

Yet 2timothy316 never qualified his remark as only pertaining to this subforum. Sorry that I expect remarks to mean what they say. Obviously a grave mistake on my part.

Do you have a question for a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS or not?

If yes ask. If not goodbye.

But I already asked!!!

Check post #7 where I asked you several questions, which you never addressed——And did you not read my reply to 2timothy316 in post 17 where I said "But the fact is, my very first questions here were addressed to a JW, JehovahsWitness, in post #7." ?——Consequently, I simply figured you were unable to answer them so you blew me off.

In any event, I proceeded on to the replies of 2timothy316 in post #8, which is all I had to work with.

But I ask you, what more can a guy do to gain knowledge about JWs if he can't ask difficult questions? Limit my inquiries to duck-soup questions? Cross the palms of JWs with silver? Beg?


.

[JehovahsWitness]

.

But I ask you, what more can a guy do to gain knowledge about JWs if he can't ask difficult questions?

You are free to post a question in one of the Debating Forums and if anyone is interested in answering I'm sure they will be right along.

Alternatively, you can visit the Jehovah Witness website : ....

• www.jw.org

You can also write or telephone our headquarters and request a home visit. The address is

• 1 Kings Dr, Tuxedo Park, NY 10987, United States

If you live in a major city there you can approach one of our public witnessing carts, they won't engage in debate but they will take your details and arrange a visit for you.

[Miles]

.

But I ask you, what more can a guy do to gain knowledge about JWs if he can't ask difficult questions?

You are free to post a question in one of the Debating Forums and if anyone is interested in answering I'm sure they will be right along.

Alternatively, you can visit the Jehovah Witness website : ....

• www.jw.org

You can also write or telephone our headquarters and request a home visit. The address is

• 1 Kings Dr, Tuxedo Park, NY 10987, United States

If you live in a major city there you can approach one of our public witnessing carts, they won't engage in debate but they will take your details and arrange a visit for you.

But evidently not, as you put it, "in a subforum dedicated questions for a particular group, in a thread directed to Jehovahs Witnesses." despite being told:

Do you have a question for a JEHOVAH'S WITNESS or not?

If yes ask.

And why such an insincere, duplicitous remark I ask you? I'll leave this to you to explain.

The floor is yours, JehovahsWitness. Explain away.


.

[otseng]

Moderator Comment

The intent of this subforum is to allow members to ask questions directed towards a particular group of people (Christians, Atheists, Ex-Christians, Democrats, Fundamentalists, etc). Debating is not allowed here. Any comments considered to be demeaning or sarcastic about any groups will not be tolerated. The purpose here is simply to gain knowledge from others about a particular group. If the conversation leads to something that you want to debate, then open a new debate topic in the appropriate debate subforum.

Please review the Rules.



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