Free will and God

[stevencarrwork]

If people have free will, can God arrange any outcome he desires by simply arranging the circumstances needed for people to behave just how God wanted them to?

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcrai ... moved.html

' In virtue of His knowledge of counterfactuals of creaturely freedom and His freedom to decree that certain circumstances exist and certain free creatures be placed in those circumstances, God is able to bring about indirectly that events occur which He knew would happen as a direct result of the particular decisions which those creatures would freely make in those circumstances.'

So how can the free will defense be true, if God can bring about what events he wants by simply manipulating the circumstances in which people make free decisions?

[Talishi]

' In virtue of His knowledge of counterfactuals of creaturely freedom and His freedom to decree that certain circumstances exist and certain free creatures be placed in those circumstances, God is able to bring about indirectly that events occur which He knew would happen as a direct result of the particular decisions which those creatures would freely make in those circumstances.'

So how can the free will defense be true, if God can bring about what events he wants by simply manipulating the circumstances in which people make free decisions?

A will that is subject to manipulation by a supreme power is not free. You can't have your free will cake and eat it too, no matter what fancy word salad you dress the entree with.

[Miles]

If people have free will, can God arrange any outcome he desires by simply arranging the circumstances needed for people to behave just how God wanted them to?

Even without free will, which happens to be the situation, god is able to do whatever he wants, so it's said..

' In virtue of His knowledge of counterfactuals of creaturely freedom and His freedom to decree that certain circumstances exist and certain free creatures be placed in those circumstances, God is able to bring about indirectly that events occur which He knew would happen as a direct result of the particular decisions which those creatures would freely make in those circumstances.'

So how can the free will defense be true, if God can bring about what events he wants by simply manipulating the circumstances in which people make free decisions?

And this is the point, the will is not free. Free will is an illusion.


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[ttruscott]

IF we have no free will then it follows that we are not guilty for our actions but rather whoever programmed us is guilty if we do a crime. All the exhortations to morality are empty rhetoric. There can be no sin and no guilt. Since I contend that GOD cannot create evil, I find that the presence of evil proves our free will at least until we used our free will to go against GOD and so became a sinner enslaved to evil.

As well, I consider that being programmed to love cannot produce the same love as love freely chosen nor can a forced marriage be a true marriage at the best sense of the words love and marriage. Therefore I contend that our free will is an absolute theological necessity for sin and guilt to be real, to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and for love and marriage to be meaningful concepts.

I suggest that free refers to a choice that is free from being forced by coercion or constraint to choose only one option or to make only one decision.

1. A true free will choice must not be coerced nor compelled either by fear, love or hate nor of ideas of good and evil nor by an understanding of God’s true nature, ie, the person must be in a true state of innocence.

Nor can they be compelled by any prior event impinging on their life or sensibility - they must be totally free from coercions known and unknown, physically, emotionally and mentally.

Nor can they be compelled by any inner nature, any genetic programming of their biology nor spiritual nature from God.

It is this last consideration that the scientific community uses as the definitive answer that there can be no free will here on earth.

2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

Only in a situation / system / reality where these things could be true can a true free will choice be made.

So I have arrived at the thought that our free will is an absolute theological necessity YET here on earth our free will is not possible and I haven't even dealt with our being enslaved by sin so that none can choose good. I personally resolve this seeming contradiction by accepting that our creation was pre-earth and in the spirit world, Sheol, we were innocent and fully free from any coercion. It was there that some used their free will to become evil and it was from there that all those who chose to sin were sent to live on earth as humans so the ones who can be redeemed can be brought to holiness. This I contend that our relationship with YHWH was not programmed, predetermined or predestined before or after our creation but as sinners here on earth, our lives are predestined and predetermined, conforming to the choices we made in Sheol and GOD's plans for us.

[Miles]

IF we have no free will then it follows that we are not guilty for our actions but rather whoever programmed us is guilty if we do a crime.

Guilty is a legal term. More commonly the objection says we would not be responsible for our actions. And no one has to program us, as in the sense of "this is what I want entity X to do." We do what we do because we cannot do otherwise.

All the exhortations to morality are empty rhetoric. There can be no sin and no guilt.

Yup.

Since I contend that GOD cannot create evil, I find that the presence of evil proves our free will at least until we used our free will to go against GOD and so became a sinner enslaved to evil.

Don't follow your reasoning, but okay. *shrug*

I suggest that free refers to a choice that is free from being forced by coercion or constraint to choose only one option or to make only one decision.

Well, choice is the grounding element of freewill. Free will implies that aside from external constraints, one can choose what they do. Fact is, free choice, as in "I could have chosen to differently" is an illusion.

1. A true free will choice must not be coerced nor compelled either by fear, love or hate nor of ideas of good and evil nor by an understanding of God’s true nature, ie, the person must be in a true state of innocence.

Nor can they be compelled by any prior event impinging on their life or sensibility - they must be totally free from coercions known and unknown, physically, emotionally and mentally.

Nor can they be compelled by any inner nature, any genetic programming of their biology nor spiritual nature from God.

Okay, but this is still not an argument for free will, if that's what you're aiming for.

It is this last consideration that the scientific community uses as the definitive answer that there can be no free will here on earth.

Truthfully, the "scientific community" as you put it, doesn't care one wit about the freewill Vs determinism issue. The issue is a philosophical one.

2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

I don't know what your ultimate point here is, but okay.

Only in a situation / system / reality where these things could be true can a true free will choice be made.

Actually, there's no situation / system / reality where free will could operate.

So I have arrived at the thought that our free will is an absolute theological necessity

Within the framework of Christian theology it's certainly a necessity.

YET here on earth our free will is not possible and I haven't even dealt with our being enslaved by sin so that none can choose good. I personally resolve this seeming contradiction by accepting that our creation was pre-earth and in the spirit world, Sheol, we were innocent and fully free from any coercion. It was there that some used their free will to become evil and it was from there that all those who chose to sin were sent to live on earth as humans so the ones who can be redeemed can be brought to holiness. This I contend that our relationship with YHWH was not programmed, predetermined or predestined before or after our creation but as sinners here on earth, our lives are predestined and predetermined, conforming to the choices we made in Sheol and GOD's plans for us.

Whatever works for you I guess.


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