Toward a better Christian-Muslim understanding

[EduChris]

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...lets start by discussing what our religions teach.
The basics of christianity are God is one but is 3.
Jesus died for your sins.
Believing Jesus is God is the only way to salvation.

If you could briefly explain why you are a christian and why you believe its the correct path. And i will express my opinions and we can have a civil talk...

First I would say that the basics of Christianity are:

1) God is love
2) In Jesus, God became human in order to suffer with us and for us, so that as a result of having "walked a mile in our shoes" (so to speak) God can forgive us on the basis of his direct personal experience of what it is to be human.
3) Following the teaching and example of Jesus is the best way to experience salvation and to extend it in the world.

I am a Christian, and I believe Jesus provides the best path for two reasons. First, I experience a personal relationship with Jesus, something that I am aware of at the intuitive level. Secondly, I choose the Christian story because it seems most genuine and most true-to-experience when compared to other major world religions and worldviews.

Obviously these are somewhat general statements, but I will give you a chance to respond now and to ask additional questions.

[EduChris]

...I have been studying hermeneutic principles for 30+ years...

Anyone who ever reads a text practices hermeneutical principles. But actual, disciplined study of hermeneutic theory and methods should improve almost anyone's interpretive ability.

...So where do you stand and what is your hermeneutic standard?...

To quote from your reference:

The process consists of several steps for best attaining the Scriptural author's intended meaning(s). One such process is taught by Henry A Virkler, in Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation (1981):
1. Lexical-syntactical analysis: This step looks at the words used and the way the words are used. Different order of the sentence, the punctuation, the tense of the verse are all aspects that are looked at in the lexical syntactical method. Here, lexicons and grammar aids can help in extracting meaning from the text.
2. Historical/cultural analysis: The history and culture surrounding the authors is important to understand to aid in interpretation. For instance, understanding the Jewish sects of the Palestine and the government that ruled Palestine in New Testament times increases understanding of Scripture. And, understanding the connotations of positions such as the High Priest and that of the tax collector helps us know what others thought of the people holding these positions.
3. Contextual analysis: A verse out of context can often be taken to mean something completely different from the intention. This method focuses on the importance of looking at the context of a verse in its chapter, book and even biblical context.
4. Theological analysis: It is often said that a single verse usually doesn't make a theology. This is because Scripture often touches on issues in several books. For instance, gifts of the Spirit are spoken about in Romans, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. To take a verse from Corinthians without taking into account other passages that deal with the same topic can cause a poor interpretation.
5. Special literary analysis: There are several special literary aspects to look at, but the overarching theme is that each genre of Scripture has a different set of rules that applies to it. Of the genres found in Scripture, there are: narratives, histories, prophecies, apocalyptic writings, poetry, psalms and letters. In these, there are differing levels of allegory, figurative language, metaphors, similes and literal language. For instance, the apocalyptic writings and poetry have more figurative and allegorical language than does the narrative or historical writing. These must be addressed, and the genre recognized to gain a full understanding of the intended meaning.

[Cathar1950]

...I have been studying hermeneutic principles for 30+ years...

Anyone who ever reads a text practices hermeneutical principles. But actual, disciplined study of hermeneutic theory and methods should improve almost anyone's interpretive ability.

...So where do you stand and what is your hermeneutic standard?...

To quote from your reference:

The process consists of several steps for best attaining the Scriptural author's intended meaning(s). One such process is taught by Henry A Virkler, in Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation (1981):
1. Lexical-syntactical analysis: This step looks at the words used and the way the words are used. Different order of the sentence, the punctuation, the tense of the verse are all aspects that are looked at in the lexical syntactical method. Here, lexicons and grammar aids can help in extracting meaning from the text.
2. Historical/cultural analysis: The history and culture surrounding the authors is important to understand to aid in interpretation. For instance, understanding the Jewish sects of the Palestine and the government that ruled Palestine in New Testament times increases understanding of Scripture. And, understanding the connotations of positions such as the High Priest and that of the tax collector helps us know what others thought of the people holding these positions.
3. Contextual analysis: A verse out of context can often be taken to mean something completely different from the intention. This method focuses on the importance of looking at the context of a verse in its chapter, book and even biblical context.
4. Theological analysis: It is often said that a single verse usually doesn't make a theology. This is because Scripture often touches on issues in several books. For instance, gifts of the Spirit are spoken about in Romans, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. To take a verse from Corinthians without taking into account other passages that deal with the same topic can cause a poor interpretation.
5. Special literary analysis: There are several special literary aspects to look at, but the overarching theme is that each genre of Scripture has a different set of rules that applies to it. Of the genres found in Scripture, there are: narratives, histories, prophecies, apocalyptic writings, poetry, psalms and letters. In these, there are differing levels of allegory, figurative language, metaphors, similes and literal language. For instance, the apocalyptic writings and poetry have more figurative and allegorical language than does the narrative or historical writing. These must be addressed, and the genre recognized to gain a full understanding of the intended meaning.

What part of that tells you that God can't have a son?
How are your principles applied?
Why does being God's son mean you are Divine?
How is it not limiting God and therefore a contradiction?
Why do you insist it needs to mean more or other?

[EduChris]

...How are your principles applied?...

Here's the order in which I usually apply the criteria:

1. Special literary analysis: what is the genre of the material?
2. Contextual analysis: what is the larger context of the particular passage?
3. Lexical-syntactical analysis: what do the words mean, and how do the words relate to one another?
4. Historical/cultural analysis: necessary since the Bible was not written in our own culture, but rather in a very different time and place
5. Theological analysis: how does the passage fit into the larger Biblical themes.

This is the order in which I usually proceed, but of course at any time I can go back and reconsider any of the steps as necessary.

...What part of that tells you that God can't have a son?...

Not sure what you mean here. The Qur'anic text in question is not saying that Allah would be incapable of producing a son, but rather that such an act would be incompatible with Allah's nature and purposes. I arrived at this conclusion by means of context, primarily, but also (Islamic) theological analysis.

...Why does being God's son mean you are Divine?...

In terms of what a text is saying, that would depend on context and historical/cultural analysis

...How is it not limiting God and therefore a contradiction?...

Contextual analysis

...Why do you insist it needs to mean more or other?

I have no idea what you mean here.

[Murad]

You are totally missing the point..

1) Allah can do anything (no restriction)
2) Allah can not father a child. (A restriction)

I am well aware that the second phrase was specifically put there to combat the Christian concept of the messiah... that is irrelevant to the contradiction.

Well thats the problem Goat, you want an A or B answer, you will not, and you cannot get that kind of answer for the question.

In countless verses of the Quran, it states if Allah(swt) wants something, he says 'Be' and it is.

Another similar question you could ask is the good old:
"Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it"
Ofcourse he can, all he has to say is 'Be' and it is, but why would Allah try to destroy his divineness or Omnipotence-ness.

He is too transcendent and majestic to have a son.

Nowhere in the verses it says he doesnt have the power to create a son, but this will affect his attributes, just like God building a rock too heavy for him to lift will affect his attributes of 'Godlyness'

(Sorry i feel like im repeating myself)

This is the answer you will get from most muslims.

-------------------------------------------

Jesus spoke of a "Spirit of God" in personal terms, a Spirit who was also Divine, but who was not Jesus and not the Father.

This Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is equated to Angel Gabriel in Islam.
Gabriel is the Angel of revelation and takes the direct 'words' of God and gives them to the prophets.

Faced with this seemingly confusing and conflicting information, Jesus' followers likely would not have continued to think anything more about these things after Jesus had died on the cross and was buried.

Indeed there has been confusion within early religion.

There are 2 types of prophets:
1)Prophet: Whose job is to reinforce the current laws of god and to erase confusion.
2)Messenger & Prophet: Whose job is to bring new religious laws and erase confusion.

Moses was a messenger, Jesus was a messenger, Muhammad was a messenger, they all brought forth new religious laws.
But the problem was, the Jews rejected the teachings of Jesus because they thought the Torah was perfect and therefore believing in the Gospel would be blasphemy, and the Christians later rejected Muhammad because they thought the Gospel was perfect and therefore it would be blasphemy to accept the Quran.

The Jews rejected Jesus as a whole and spoke atrociously about him, and the Christians rejected Muhammad as a whole and spoke atrociously about him.

In Matthew 21:43:

"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Indeed the kingdom of god was changed from the israelites to the ishmaelites(Muhammad's bloodline)


Muhammad(pbuh) said:

I have been given five things which were not given to any Prophet before me, and I do not say it out of pride. I was sent to all mankind (their) black and white alike......

Im sure me and you both know Jesus was sent to Bani Israil (Children of Israel), the followers of moses. Muhammad was sent to all humanity to re-affirm the messege of Moses and Jesus that the God of Israel is 1.

Perhaps at this point you could explain your views on the Islamic understanding of human Free Will with respect to Allah's forenowledge?

According to basic Islamic teachings, Allah created at least three intelligent races: angels, jinns, and humans, of which the later two have been granted free will to choose between good and evil. (Jinns and Humans)

The Christian concept of Free will is a bit different than the Islamic concept.

Lucifer for example, in Christianity he is referred to a "Fallen angel" who disobeyed Gods command.

In Islam this is impossible, as Angels cannot, and will not disobey God. As Angels do not have the gift of free will. Angels only execute Gods command.

"Lucifer" or "Iblis" in Islam is not an Angel, but a Jinn, a creation that has the gift of free will and you can see in the Quran, the events are similar to Christian beliefs.

When Allah created Adam, He commanded all the angels and jinn to prostrate to Adam as was termed "the Best of Creation". All the angels and jinn did so except Iblis, who refused to obey.

And We created you (humans), then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who made prostration.

He said: "What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee?" (Iblis) said: "I am better than him. Thou created me of fire while him Thou didst create of clay".[10]

Humans have the ultimate choice of Right and Wrong, the truth and false. "Iblis" can only whisper into the hearts of men & women urging them to commit sins as he wants to show God that humans arn't as great as God labelled them to be.

[EduChris]

...Muhammad was sent to all humanity to re-affirm the messege of Moses and Jesus that the God of Israel is 1...

In what sense can Islam say that Mohammad was sent to all humanity? Does the Qur'an not say that all people have been given warning in their own language? Mohammad did not speak my language, nor did he speak the native language of anyone else living today (modern Arabic is quite different from ancient Arabic).

[Goat]

You are totally missing the point..

1) Allah can do anything (no restriction)
2) Allah can not father a child. (A restriction)

I am well aware that the second phrase was specifically put there to combat the Christian concept of the messiah... that is irrelevant to the contradiction.

Well thats the problem Goat, you want an A or B answer, you will not, and you cannot get that kind of answer for the question.

That depends on the question being asked. The question is 'Can God do anything or can't he'.

In countless verses of the Quran, it states if Allah(swt) wants something, he says 'Be' and it is.

That makes the passage that is directly aimed at the birth of Jesus as God's literal son to be a contradiction. As such, that is just one example where the Quran has a contradiction. It takes great mental gymnastics to explain it away, and all you and he have done is say 'no, it's not a contradiction', and ignore what it says.

Another similar question you could ask is the good old:
"Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it"
Ofcourse he can, all he has to say is 'Be' and it is, but why would Allah try to destroy his divineness or Omnipotence-ness.

No, that is not quite true.. since that make things a logical impossibility, the contradiction is in the question, and just points up the weakness of the concept of 'omnipotence' in general.

This deals with a very specific case. .. and it would point to something that if you take the second phrase literally, something that man can do that god can not.

He is too transcendent and majestic to have a son.

That is an excuse about 'Why he can't do everything, but he still can't do everything.. the point stands, the contradiction stands.

Nowhere in the verses it says he doesnt have the power to create a son, but this will affect his attributes, just like God building a rock too heavy for him to lift will affect his attributes of 'Godlyness'

Yes, it specifically says 'too' blah blah blah' to have a son. That is a restriction. The contradiction stands.

(Sorry i feel like im repeating myself)

This is the answer you will get from most muslims.

I am sure it is. Muslims can be perfectly happy ignoring contradictions as much as fundamentalist Christians on the inerreancy of the bible. Doublethink is a very human attribute.

[Murad]

I am trying hard to see it as a contradiction but i can't because i am looking at it in context.

Another analogy:
Can God commit suicide, if he is able to do anything

Ofcourse he can, his power is limitless, "but how do you expect him to" (that is what the Quran is saying) : He is too transcendent and majestic to have a son.

No where in the Quran it says, "Allah does not have the power to have a son"
And until you find a verse that says that, there is no contradiction on the power of God so you have no foundation on your arguement.
______________

In what sense can Islam say that Mohammad was sent to all humanity? Does the Qur'an not say that all people have been given warning in their own language? Mohammad did not speak my language, nor did he speak the native language of anyone else living today

The Quran tells us:

"Verily We have sent thee (Mohammed) in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past)."

Many scholars believe somewhat 124,000 prophets have been sent before Muhammad(pbuh) to warn about the last hour and about a 1 true God.

Your questions were:
1. "In what sense can Islam say that Mohammad was sent to all humanity?"
2. "Does the Qur'an not say that all people have been given warning in their own language"

1. Muhammad(pbuh) was sent to humanity to erase confusion & corruption in the 2 abrahamic religions(Torah, Gospel) with the last and final revelation.
He affirmed Jesus was the Messiah and rejecting him would be rejecting Gods messege.
He rid the prophets of the Torah of adultry.
He rid associations of partners with God.
He did not preach just to one set of people, but everyone far and near, he travelled far distances by foot to spread the messege of the true monotheism.
His messege was not restricted to Jews or Christians or Pagans or Athiests, his messege was to humanity as a whole.

Allah the Glorious says: “Say, O Muhammad to all of the people, ‘I am the Messenger of Allah to you all. Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and everything therein. None has the right to be worshipped but Him. He Who alone gives life and death. So affirm true faith in Allah and in His sole right to worship and believe in His Messenger….� [Al Quran Chapter al-A’araf (7): 158]


2. The Quran does indeed say every people was sent a prophet as a guider in their own language.
But Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad were not only prophets, they were all messengers of God, meaning they all brought forth new religious laws.


I got 2 questions for you.
1. How do you justify Jesus being God if he prayed. (this sounds like polytheism)
2. Isn't it idolatry if you worship the images of God(Jesus) on a cross and wear it as jewellery. Which was strictly forbidden by the teachings of Moses?

[EduChris]

...Muhammad...was sent to humanity to erase confusion & corruption in the 2 abrahamic religions(Torah, Gospel) with the last and final revelation...

Do muslims think that Mohammad succeeded in his mission? How have "confusion" and "corruption" been erased? Judaism shows no sign of disappearing, and Christianity is still going strong worldwide. Moreover, with all of the various divisions within Islam (Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmadi, etc) it appears that confusion and corruption have simply increased since Mohammad's time.

...He rid associations of partners with God...

To Christians today, Mohammad seems not to have known or understood standard, normative, historic Christian doctrine; rather, he appears to have preached against localized, parochial misunderstandings of Christian and Jewish teaching.

...He did not preach just to one set of people, but everyone far and near, he travelled far distances by foot to spread the messege of the true monotheism...His messege was not restricted to Jews or Christians or Pagans or Athiests, his messege was to humanity as a whole...

Jesus instructed his disciples to be his witnesses to all the world. After 1400 years, Mohammad's mission has never eclipsed Christianity's geographical and cultural distribution. So again, in what sense has Mohammad's mission succeeded?

...The Quran does indeed say every people was sent a prophet as a guider in their own language...But Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad were not only prophets, they were all messengers of God, meaning they all brought forth new religious laws...

So ever since Mohammad's time, neither prophets nor messengers have been sent to us to speak to us in our own language?

...How do you justify Jesus being God if he prayed. (this sounds like polytheism)...

It will seem like polytheism to anyone who doesn't understand the normative, historic Christian teaching on the Trinity. Christians believe that there is one true God, but this one God is more mysterious and wonderful than the human mind can conceive. Despite the mystery, we can look at Jesus and know who God is, and what God is like. We can pray like Jesus did, and God hears us.

...Isn't it idolatry if you worship the images of God(Jesus) on a cross and wear it as jewellery. Which was strictly forbidden by the teachings of Moses?

To me that's a debatable issue. My own Christian tradition doesn't use icons or statues and so on. Catholics and Orthodox do, but they don't view themselves as worshiping the images; rather, they say that the images help them to focus their minds on God and fill their hearts with reverence. I suppose at the popular, street level, there will always be people who misunderstand the teachings of their own faith. I have even heard that there are uneducated rural "Muslims" who do things that might be construed as worshipping Mohammad.

[Murad]

Do muslims think that Mohammad succeeded in his mission? How have "confusion" and "corruption" been erased? Judaism shows no sign of disappearing, and Christianity is still going strong worldwide. Moreover, with all of the various divisions within Islam (Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmadi, etc) it appears that confusion and corruption have simply increased since Mohammad's time.

Ofcourse he succeeded hence Islam, if he didn't succeed i wouldn't be muslim and here debating with you, through him Allah revealed 6346 verses of the Quran, even though he was illiterate and uneducated, he produced the best arabic text in history:

"'If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.'" (Qur'an 17:88)

Sunni, Shia, Sufi etc have the same foundation's, except division exists with the authenticity of hadiths and also division exists on who were the righteous caliphs.
Like catholics and anglicans who share the same foundation that Jesus is God but its the pope and etc that is different.

To Christians today, Mohammad seems not to have known or understood standard, normative, historic Christian doctrine; rather, he appears to have preached against localized, parochial misunderstandings of Christian and Jewish teaching.

I dont think it has anything to do with what he understood because the Quran is not his, he was just the vessel that received the words of God through Gabriel.

Sura 5,77/73: ‘Assuredly they have disbelieved who say: “God is one of three �

Every christian says God is 3 but 1 in essence, and as you see in the verse above, God is not mentioned as a plural. So its not a misunderstanding.

Jesus instructed his disciples to be his witnesses to all the world. After 1400 years, Mohammad's mission has never eclipsed Christianity's geographical and cultural distribution. So again, in what sense has Mohammad's mission succeeded?

Im not talking about what his disciples or Paul or Constantine achieved for modern christianity. Im talking about Jesus himself.

The bible tells us:

“Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.�

Dont get me wrong, we muslims believe this to be true aswell but to say he was sent to all man-kind is blatantly wrong.

Muhammad succeeded the day he received his last revelation, after he finished the Quran, several days later he fell sick and died (June 8, 632 CE)
And the perfect monotheistic religion was born.

So ever since Mohammad's time, neither prophets nor messengers have been sent to us to speak to us in our own language?

Absolutly not, if you read the Quran you would know Muhammad is the seal of the prophets and that any other after him is a deceiver. The only prophet thats going to step foot on earth after Muhammad is Jesus in his second comming.

“And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.�

Christians believe that there is one true God, but this one God is more mysterious and wonderful than the human mind can conceive. Despite the mystery, we can look at Jesus and know who God is, and what God is like. We can pray like Jesus did, and God hears us.

I dont disagree with you on the wonderful part.
But in other words Christians don't understand how Jesus is God and they don't know why he prayed and they can't logically answer the trinity therefore they label it a mystery? Im pretty sure 'mystery' is the christian replacement for 'confusion' as they both mean 'not understanding'

"God is not the author of confusion" verse of 1 Corinthians 14:33

[54.17], "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?".

My own Christian tradition doesn't use icons or statues and so on.

Really good, if you believe your sect of Christianity is the true one then you will enter paradise.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (Quran 2:62, 5:69).

I have even heard that there are uneducated rural "Muslims" who do things that might be construed as worshipping Mohammad.

I believe you are wrong.
"Muslim" means submitter or surrender to Allah.
And the Quran says:

"Say Allah is one, He is Perfect, He has never begotten, nor was He begot, and there is no one equal to Him."

I dont think you can call someone who worships multiple entity's a muslim.

[EduChris]

...he produced the best arabic text in history...

Maybe or maybe not (I happen to like the Thousand and One Arabian Nights). But at any rate the ancient Arabic of the Qur'an is inaccessible to people now, and has been inaccessible for centuries. It's not at all clear why the Qur'an makes such a self-conscious fuss about a language whose time came and went.

...I dont think it has anything to do with what he understood because the Quran is not his, he was just the vessel that received the words of God through Gabriel...

The situation with the Qur'an and Christianity is the same as we saw with Goat here on this thread. As an "outsider" to Islam, Goat claims to see "problems" with the Qur'an that Muslims don't see because your "insider" interpretations are very different from his "outsider" interpretations.

The author of the Qur'an, an "outsider" to Christianity, seems to be speaking not about actual, normative, historic Christian doctrine, but rather about localized, parochial misunderstandings of Christianity. Now of course Muslims, also "outsiders" to Christianity, will have their own views regarding whether the Qur'anic author knows or understands actual, normative, historic Christian beliefs--but to Christian "insiders," the Qur'an simply misses the mark and rails against views that are strange to Christians.

...The bible tells us...“Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.�

As "insiders," Christians understand Jesus to be referring here to an earlier time of his ministry. After his resurrection, however, Jesus told his disciples to go into all the world and to make disciples of all nations.

...June 8, 632 CE...the perfect monotheistic religion was born...

I agree that this (or perhaps several decades later) is probably the time when Islam first came into existence. Usually Muslims try to claim that Abraham was a Muslim, which is quite a stretch since Mohammad, the "birther" of the Qur'an, arrived thousands of years after Abraham.

...if you read the Quran you would know Muhammad is the seal of the prophets and that any other after him is a deceiver...

The Jewish people were expecting a Messiah during the time of Jesus. From the very start, however, Christians felt the same about Jesus as Muslims feel about Mohammad. From the start, Christians believed that any "Prophet" coming after Jesus could only be a deceiver. Now, this is not to say that Christians believe that Mohammad himself was a deceiver; from our perspective, it could be that Mohammad's original message was changed and distorted by later Arab rulers (who then covered their tracks by destroying the paper trail for all the earlier versions of the Qur'an).

...[54.17], "And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand...

Yes, but the Qur'an also says that some parts are not clear. Do Muslims agree on which parts of the Qur'an are clear, and which parts are not clear?

...I dont think you can call someone who worships multiple entity's a muslim.

I don't think that they believe they are worshipping multiple entities; instead, I think they are doing the same thing with Mohammad that some Christians do with icons and statues and jewelry. And I think God will be merciful to them.