EduChris wrote:
What would happen if any well-known Islamic scholar were to say that, based on his best determination, other ancient Arabic texts are just as good or better than the Qur'an? Wouldn't he be subject to a fatwah and killed?
Maybe in the taliban infested Afghanistan.
EduChris wrote:
Perhaps you could explain the significance of the Medina vd. Mecca passages in the Qur'an?
Im sorry it does not ring any bells, more detail on the specific passages?
EduChris wrote:
Apart from the Bible, Abraham would not be known at all by anyone today.
That is untrue, Abraham is mentioned in clear detail in the Quran.
But the Quran is a completely different revelation from the Gospel of Jesus or the Torah of Moses. Even though Muhammad couldn't read or write, he believed in Moses and the Word of God-Jesus.
Please read:
(Quran 7:158) Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allâh — to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. None has the right to be worshipped but He; It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad), the Prophet who can neither read nor write ( Muhammad) who believes in Allâh and His Words [(this Qur'ân), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allâh's Word: "Be!" - and he was Jesus son of Maryam (Mary), and follow him so that you may be guided."
EduChris wrote:
According to the Bible, Abraham believed in one God, as do Jews and Christians. By itself, the belief in one God doesn't automatically produce good behavior, since according to the Bible, even the demons believe in one God.
Also according to the bible, Jesus prayed and beleived in God(clear give-away). Also in the bible God cannot be seen(you will argue that its talking about God's spirit form, but its a clear contradiction) Also in the bible God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was. Also in the Bible, Jesus denied the knowledge of the Unseen and said that only the Father knows, God in the Quran is all knowing, all aware.
Also in the bible, Jesus said "the Father is Greater than I", do you see a clear distinction between the two? Yet you still
equate them in the trinity. Because if you did not equate them, Christianity would be polytheistic, so even though equating Jesus to God makes contradictions, it also solves the contradiction of 1 God, and thus the reason of the existence of the trinity.
EduChris wrote:
Obviously Christians have different theories about Mohammad, but the most generous view of Mohammad is that he may have started out with good intentions, but somewhere along the way, something went terribly wrong. Either Mohammad himself went wrong, or else the Islamic leaders after him distorted his message and destroyed the earlier documents in order to erase the paper trail and cover their tracks.
The most generous view from the Christian perspective is not logical. Because if according to Christians Muhammad had a good 'intention', he would of believed that Jesus was God before he started to get revelations. Muhammad only believed in 1 God and that Moses and Jesus was his messenger.
EduChris wrote:
Perhaps, but doesn't even the Qur'an itself say that some parts are not clear?
Not that i can remember, which verses are you talking about.
EduChris wrote:
So are you saying that if one reads the entire Qur'an, there will be no parts that remain unclear?
I am saying if one reads the Quran as a whole he will understand everything clearly, but his perception might still alter the meanings of some verses.
EduChris wrote:
That verse was not even in the Bible when the doctrine of the Trinity was being defined, so it was never part of any evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity.
I know when the trinity doctrine was created but the Gospel of John was used mainly as evidence for it. And thus this particular verse creates doubt in the other sections of the Gospel.
EduChris wrote:
That verse was accidentally inserted into some manuscripts because of a scribal error during medieval times. But fortunately, since Christians didn't destroy their "paper trail" of ancient manuscripts, the forensic science of textual criticism has been able to identify that verse as a medieval error.
Do you have proof it was a scribal error?
The presence of numerous existing bibles that all differ from one another is not something i would agree to be 'fortunate' if i was a Christian.
Because the early copies of the Quran differed from one another e.g. alteration of words and the deduction of verses(thus making it not in context), a man came up to Uthman(3rd caliph of Islam) and told him to "
Save the religion before its too late". Hearing this, Uthman obtained the complete manuscript of the Qur'an from Hafsah, one of the wives of the prophet Muhammad who had been entrusted to keep the manuscript ever since the Qur'an was comprehensively compiled by the first Caliph. He then ordered numerous scribes to copy it letter for letter and distribute it. The incomplete/false copies of the Quran were ordered to be destroyed and thus all the Qurans were at their original state, letter for letter.
EduChris wrote:
However, the doctrine is implicit in the New Testament. Christians are aware that the doctrine was misunderstood by Mohammad (or whoever authored the Qur'an) and it remains misunderstood by Muslims today.
Actually i believe your wrong, most muslims know that Christians believe in 1 God, but that they divide that god into 3 entity's.
The Trinity was never misunderstood by Prophet Muhammad, the Christian God was never in the plural form, it is exactly what christians believe it to be, that God is 1 in 3 parts. That is all that the Trinity is, im sure you could try to complicate it and say Muhammad didn't understand it, but the fact is the trinity is nothing more than 1 God existing in 3 parts, and that is exactly what is said in the Quran.
No where in the Quran does it say Christians believe in 3 Gods, it says Christians
divide the diviness of God into 3 parts.
So i fail to see where exactly "
Christians are aware that the doctrine was misunderstood by Muhammad"
EduChris wrote:
The original-language texts on which the King James Version was based are accurate enough for most purposes, but in the past 400 years the forensic science of textual criticism has produced a much more accurate.
That is the thing, 200 years later forensic science could advance and a better text can be produced which could make your current beliefs false. But still, Christians claim that Christianity is the perfect religion.
EduChris wrote:
Reader's Digest could do the same thing with the Qur'an. How would the actions of the Reader's Digest affect the authenticity or integrity of the Qur'an? Does the Reader's Digest have the ability to nullify the Qur'an?
Reader's Digest could try, maybe they can come up with 1 or 2 claims but it would be very difficult for them.
The Quran was finished before the death of Prophet Muhammad, the 4 Gospels were written decades after the death of Prophet Jesus.
Unlike the bible, the Quran cannot be part true & part false(numerous gospels) and still maintain its 'holyness' like Christians claim. The Quran is either false as a whole, or true as a whole because the Quran is undivided and whole itself.
EduChris wrote:
At any rate, when it comes to deciding what scriptures are inspired by God, the only thing we can do is examine the best texts we have available to us and see which scriptures seem to present the best understanding of God
The New Testament contradicts the Old Testament countless times and is also very, very vague on the attributes of God e.g. "
The word was God"(John 1:1)
I have read the Bible and i dont see how you consider its description of God being more clear and more detailed than the Qurans description. But i will leave that to opinion.
I understand that you believe the Trinity is a 'holy mystery'
The Quran agree's with you that some attributes of God cannot be understood because of our human limitations:
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things - (Quran 6:103)
___
One messege, 2 Prophets.
Jesus said: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29)
Muhammad said: "I hereby testify there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah" -Al Bukhari
Both Jesus and Muhammad believed in 1 God, 1 Allah, 1 Hashem, 1 Jehovah.
They both prayed so that their people will have 1 purpose(the purpose of belief):
“Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one� (John 17:11).
They both believed Moses was the messenger of Allah.
The Prophet Muhammad said:
If a man believes in Jesus and then believes in me, he will get a double reward(from Allah) (ibid. p.435)
______
EduChris wrote:
the ultimate author of scripture is God. Wouldn't you agree?
I agree with you 100%. But lets see if it is God that authored the Bible.
The Bible Declares:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16)
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless...." (2 Samuel 22:31)
"And the words of the LORD are flawless...." (Psalm 12:6)
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless...." (Psalm 18:30)
"Every word of God is flawless...." (Proverbs 30:5)
I remember earlier on you said that i have misinterpreted the Bible. So i ask you to help me interpret the following so it does not look like contradictions, as stated above the "
words of God are flawless":
2 Samuel 10:18 -
David slew 700 and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
1 Chronicles 19:18 -
David slew 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen.
2 Chronicles 9:25 -
Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
1 Kings 4:26 -
Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses.
Ezra 2:5 -
Arah had 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 -
Arah had 652 sons.
2 Samuel 24:13 -
SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE.
1 Chronicles 21:11-12 -
THREE YEARS OF FAMINE.
How did Judas die?
Matthew 27:5 -
Hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 -
And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.
2 Samuel 6:23 -
MICHAL never had a child until she died.
2 Samuel 21:8 -
MICHAL had 5 sons.
2 Kings 24:8 -
Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began to reign.
2 Chronicles 36:9 -
Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign.
1 Kings 16:6-8 -
26th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.
2 Chronicles 16:1 -
36th year of the reign of Asa, Baasha reigned over Israel.
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
22 in 2 Kings 8:26
42 in 2 Chronicle 22:2
Who was Josiah's successor?
Jehoahaz - 2 Chronicle 36:1
Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11
If you can answer these i will agree with you that God is the Ultimate Author of the
current Bible. Until you do, i maintain that the Bible is corrupted from its original state and thats why God brought forth a new revelation, that is the Quran. And he promised to guard it from corruption:
"Verily, We have sent down the Qur’aan and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) "
“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and trustworthy in highness and a witness over the old Scriptures�[Surah (Chapter of) al-Maa'idah 5:48]