Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

[EduChris]

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

[EduChris]

Can you show that:
-God exists.
-He allows us to chose our future.
-The universe is fundamentally based upon human choice.

I have no desire to discuss these issues (important as they are) on each and every thread. On this particular thread, the topic is limited to whether Divine foreknowledge (assuming it exists) would completely negate human free will. It appears that you and I agree that absolute, total Divine foreknowledge (if it exists) would indeed negate human free will.

As a theist who believes in human free will, I conclude that absolute, total Divine foreknowledge does not exist (and is not taught in the Bible).

Absolute, total Divine foreknowdge does seem to be a pillar of Islamic theology, however, and therefore I conclude that Islamic theology (to the extent it also tries to incorporate human free will) is incoherent in a way that Christian and Jewish theology is not.

[ChaosBorders]

As a theist who believes in human free will, I conclude that absolute, total Divine foreknowledge does not exist (and is not taught in the Bible).

A) To address your last post I do not think freedom makes true love possible. In point I view love as a condition that often acts as a restriction on actions and in and of itself restricts free will. Given the OP I think it is fair to assume God exists within this thread, however if you wish to make bare assertions that God is a free agent you really should do in your OP, otherwise there is no reason for anyone to assume that.
B) I do agree that total Divine Foreknowledge is not stated in the Bible. However, it should be noted that foreknowledge itself is repeatedly stated throughout the Bible (often in the form of prophecies) and that has rather disturbing repercussions if people have free will in that it implies
i) nothing we do actually matters because in the end whatever God plans is going to happen anyways.

[ChaosBorders]

As a theist who believes in human free will, I conclude that absolute, total Divine foreknowledge does not exist (and is not taught in the Bible).

A) To address your last post I do not think freedom makes true love possible. In point I view love as a condition that often acts as a restriction on actions and in and of itself restricts free will. Given the OP I think it is fair to assume God exists within this thread, however if you wish to make bare assertions that God is a free agent you really should do in your OP, otherwise there is no reason for anyone to assume that.
B) I do agree that total Divine Foreknowledge is not stated in the Bible. However, it should be noted that foreknowledge itself is repeatedly stated throughout the Bible (often in the form of prophecies) and that has rather disturbing repercussions if people have free will in that it implies
i) nothing we do actually matters because in the end whatever God plans is going to happen anyways.
ii) God is actively manipulating events so they turn out how God intends, thus 'giving' free will to us (which is an oxymoron) and therefore making us culpable for our actions, but then ignoring our actual desires in favor of his own designs, which if he does not have total divine foreknowledge he cannot logically know to really be any better than ours in the long-term.

I see no manner in which free will provides for the possibility of genuine love. As far as I can tell, a truly free God without omniscience is a psycopath who doesn't know what he's doing. Fortunately, if he doesn't have omniscience you can pretty much rule out omnipotence too. An omnipotent psycopath would be a truly frightening thing.
C) I have seen nowhere that free will is stated in the Bible and plenty of places that determinism is pretty much actively stated. This isn't the thread to make that case, but I do wonder how you reconcile those parts of the Bible with the view of free will.

[EduChris]

...nowhere that free will is stated in the Bible and plenty of places that determinism is pretty much actively stated...I do wonder how you reconcile those parts of the Bible with the view of free will.

Free will is inferred whenever and wherever people are asked to choose.

In the Bible, God knows what God will do in the future, in response to whatever human contingency may arise. Only in very rare, very specific cases does God insert himself (in a limited way) into a human decision-making process. The general assumption in the Bible that people usually do whatever seems right in their own eyes.

[ChaosBorders]

...nowhere that free will is stated in the Bible and plenty of places that determinism is pretty much actively stated...I do wonder how you reconcile those parts of the Bible with the view of free will.

Free will is inferred whenever and wherever people are asked to choose.

In the Bible, God knows what God will do in the future, in response to whatever human contingency may arise. Only in very rare, very specific cases does God insert himself (in a limited way) into a human decision-making process. The general assumption in the Bible that people usually do whatever seems right in their own eyes.

God is omnipresent. Saying God knows what God will do based on human action seems no different than saying God has total divine foreknowledge. And if the suggestion is that God only knows what God will do if humans end up doing a certain action, then prophecy in its entirety is useless.

And depends on what you mean by insertion. Did God create the natural laws of the universe? If so, I don't know how anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge of psychology or nuerochemistry could make the claim that God isn't constantly inserting himself by having created such excessive limitations.

And "choice" doesn't mean you're actually free to make it. I can have two options to pick from but still be restricted to doing one.

Romans 7:15

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

The question is, if you really have the free ability to choose, why do people constantly choose to do things they don't really want to do?

[EduChris]

...if the suggestion is that God only knows what God will do if humans end up doing a certain action, then prophecy in its entirety is useless.

In the Bible, prophecy is more often a warning and an exhortation to change the prevalent practices of society. The notion that biblical prophecy is all about fore-telling the future is greatly overblown.

...Romans 7:15

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

The question is, if you really have the free ability to choose, why do people constantly choose to do things they don't really want to do?

According to the Bible, all humans have gotten themselves into a rut. We all lay down patterns of sinful behavior from the time we are just children. These habits are hard to break--even impossible to break on our own effort. But we can pray, and we can ask God to help us, and we can make a commitment to joining with others who similarly would like to break with their old habits. Over time, with God's help, we can become more and more like Jesus. This is what the term "sanctification" is all about.

[ChaosBorders]

According to the Bible, all humans have gotten themselves into a rut. We all lay down patterns of sinful behavior from the time we are just children. These habits are hard to break--even impossible to break on our own effort.

This is precisely an example of how we are not free. If God's purpose was to give us freedom, he did an incredibly lousy job of it.

[EduChris]

...If God's purpose was to give us freedom, he did an incredibly lousy job of it.

None of us can consistently choose to avoid sin. Sometimes the best we can do in our messed-up world is to choose the lesser of two evils. And of course many of our actions are chosen on the basis of habit, or "auto-pilot," without even really thinking.

According to the Bible, our earliest ancestors had a real chance at freedom, but they used their freedom to experience evil. Since then, the only truly free human has been Jesus.

We can become free, like Jesus. We can't do it on our own, and we may not entirely succeed in this life, but still we can make the one choice that really matters: we can choose to let God help us, and we can join the community of God's people who are on the same path back to God and freedom.

[Tomas]

"Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will? "
I am brand new to this forum and was elated to find this subject because the concept of free will has driven me crazy (literally) my whole life. I am sad to see it's been 3 mons. since the last post so obviously anyone interested has probably already had their say. However.......

ChaosBorders wrote:
...nowhere that free will is stated in the Bible and plenty of places that determinism is pretty much actively stated...I do wonder how you reconcile those parts of the Bible with the view of free will.

EduChris wrote:
Free will is inferred whenever and wherever people are asked to choose.

Thank you EduChris & ChoasBorders. I do agree with both statements. I believe the free will controversy began with St. Augustine using the concept to justify God sending souls to hell for refusing to believe. But Christ obviously didn't believe in free will:“For many are called, but few are chosen.� (Matthew 22:14) “ No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44) "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth," said Jesus, "that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes." (Matt 11:25).
So one can put all the spin on the subject one wants, but if you go to the guy that the New Testament is all about, he seems to think it"s a moot subject.

[ttruscott]

But Christ obviously didn't believe in free will:“For many are called, but few are chosen.�

Good morning Thomas,

IF we have no free will then it follows that we are not guilty for our actions but rather whoever programmed us is guilty if we do a crime. All the exhortations to morality are empty rhetoric. There can be no sin and no guilt. Since I contend that GOD cannot create evil, I find that the presence of evil proves our free will at least until we used our free will to go against GOD and so became a sinner.

As well, I consider that being programmed to love cannot produce the same love as love freely chosen nor can a forced marriage be a true marriage at the best sense of the words love and marriage. Therefore I contend that our free will is an absolute theological necessity for sin and guilt to be real, to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and for love and marriage to be meaningful concepts.

I suggest that free refers to a choice that is free from being forced by coercion or constraint to choose only one option or to make only one decision.

1. A true free will choice must not be coerced nor compelled either by fear, love or hate nor of ideas of good and evil nor by an understanding of God’s true nature, ie, the person must be in a true state of innocence.

Nor can they be compelled by any prior event impinging on their life or sensibility - they must be totally free from coercions known and unknown, physically, emotionally and mentally.

Nor can they be compelled by any inner nature, any genetic programming of their biology nor spiritual nature from God.

It is this last consideration that the scientific community uses as the definitive answer that there can be no free will here on earth.

2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

Only in a situation / system / reality where these things could be true can a true free will choice be made.

So I have arrived at the thought that our free will is an absolute theological necessity YET here on earth our free will is not possible and I haven't even dealt with our being enslaved by sin so that none can choose good. I personally resolve this seeming contradiction by accepting that our creation was pre-earth and in the spirit world, Sheol, we were innocent and fully free from any coercion. It was there that some used their free will to become evil and it was from there that all those who chose to sin were sent to live on earth as humans so the ones who can be redeemed can be brought to holiness. This I contend that our relationship with YHWH was not programmed, predetermined or predestined before or after our creation but as sinners here on earth, our lives are predestined and predetermined, conforming to the choices we made in Sheol and GOD's plans for us.