Immortality of the soul

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Xidorn
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Immortality of the soul

Post #1

Post by Xidorn »

Do we as humans posses an immortal soul as believed by most people? I am of the view that we do not.

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

From a biblical point of view we do not posses a soul (we ARE "souls"), a soul just being another word for "living breathing being" (or, as in the case of humans "a person").

The bible teaches that the soul far from being "immortal" dies and at that moment ceases to exist.

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Post #3

Post by bjs »

JehovahsWitness wrote:From a biblical point of view we do not posses a soul (we ARE "souls"), a soul just being another word for "living breathing being" (or, as in the case of humans "a person").

The bible teaches that the soul far from being "immortal" dies and at that moment ceases to exist.

I agree that we don’t “have� a soul; we are souls. But where does the Bible teach that the soul dies and at that moment ceases to exist?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #4

Post by stlekee »

If you mean do we possess some type of non-physical reality that lives beyond our physical body: the answer is yes and no, depending on if you believe it or not. If you want proof, there isn't any. As humans, we are limited to experiencing the physical / material world. This is what science studies. Science has no standing in regards to matters of the spirit.

Non physical or spirituality can be glimpsed through practises such as mysticism, meditation, contemplation - the journey inward. The idea is to empty the mind of all thought and just BE. This state of consciousness usually requires some training and guidance and a belief that its true. I can guarantee that if you don't really believe then you won't experience it. The only proof is the actual experience, but again, its not something you can look at and say, 'here it is'. Some people believe this is the kingdom of God within which Jesus mentions.

It all boils down to your personal belief and how you arrive at it. I suggest you keep an open mind and learn , and then still keep an open mind.

SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND - ASK AND IT WILL BE GIVEN.

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Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bjs wrote: [...] where does the Bible teach that the soul dies and at that moment ceases to exist?
Jesus said in Matthew 10 verse 28 "[...] fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. " Douay-Rhemis Bible

New International Version (©1984) - Ezekiel 18: 20
The soul who sins is the one who will die."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"... until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust." - Genesis 3: 19

Douay-Rheims Bible
"His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish." Psalms 146: 4

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Post #6

Post by bjs »

JehovahsWitness wrote:Jesus said in Matthew 10 verse 28 "[...] fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. " Douay-Rhemis Bible

New International Version (©1984) - Ezekiel 18: 20
The soul who sins is the one who will die."
Are you arguing for a nihilistic type of hell in which God’s condemnation is that the soul ceases to exist? That is certainly a reasonable theology, but it requires belief in an immortal soul – for the soul to be killed it must first be alive.

The full verse of Matthew 10:28 is, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.� This says that there is a life beyond the physical body, though God has the power to destroy that life.


JehovahsWitness wrote: GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"... until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust." - Genesis 3: 19

This speaks of physical death, but says nothing about an immortal soul.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Douay-Rheims Bible
"His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish." Psalms 146: 4

This talks of earthly plans faltering with death, but also has nothing to do with an immortal soul.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #7

Post by Baz »

bjs wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:Jesus said in Matthew 10 verse 28 "[...] fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. " Douay-Rhemis Bible

New International Version (©1984) - Ezekiel 18: 20
The soul who sins is the one who will die."
Are you arguing for a nihilistic type of hell in which God’s condemnation is that the soul ceases to exist? That is certainly a reasonable theology, but it requires belief in an immortal soul – for the soul to be killed it must first be alive.

The full verse of Matthew 10:28 is, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.� This says that there is a life beyond the physical body, though God has the power to destroy that life.


JehovahsWitness wrote: GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"... until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust." - Genesis 3: 19

This speaks of physical death, but says nothing about an immortal soul.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Douay-Rheims Bible
"His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish." Psalms 146: 4

This talks of earthly plans faltering with death, but also has nothing to do with an immortal soul.
By my understanding a sole is personal, it is what we are other than physical, should we experience heaven or hell (by whatever means you believe in) it could only be done through our soles.
The other none physical attribute we have is our spirit, we also build this during our life but it is perceived from outside and is left behind when we die. :? Is that about right?

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Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bjs wrote:I agree that we don’t “have� a soul; we are souls.
I think I probably misunderstood this statement and took it to mean you agreed with the bibles definition of what a soul is.

What is a "soul"? In scripture the bible does not speak of an invisible "soul" that lives inside a person and is released from the body at death to continue existing in another form; quite simply put, soul (in hebrew "nephesh") is simply another word for person or animal. In Genesis 2: 7 the bible says Adam (the first human) came to BE a living soul. In a similar way that a woman comes to BE a wife or a Doctor, it doesn't mean she HAS a doctor inside her that will be released when she dies, she IS a doctor, it's just another way to describe her. In a similar way a person IS a man or a woman and both are "souls" (living breathing creatures).

Further reading "nephesh"
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBra ... end13.html

#QUESTION: Are animals "souls"? Yes, because soul is not speaking about something invisible and immortal but just another way of saying a living breathing creature:Darby Bible Translation - Genesis 1: 24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth living SOULS after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. [CAPs mine]

What is the spirit? Is it the same as "soul"? No, in the bible the two words are not interchangable. Spirit referes to the force or "breath of life" (heb: ruahh) or power God uses to animate all living things. A person (or "soul") therefore is a body "animated" or kept alive by the force from God. That power/breath/lifeforce no more carries a person's personality or thoughts than electricity carries your the programs in a computer.

Much like a computer is operational as long as it has electricity (the force that animates it). The computer isn't the power, neither is the power (electricity) the computer, but the two combined make an operational machine. In a similar way a body isn't a person but add the power (or life force or "spirit") you have a living breathing person. You have a living breathing soul.

Image

#QUESTION: So if a soul is just another way of saying person or animal can a soul die? Yes, Ezekiel 18:20: "The Soul That Sinneth, It Shall Die"

At death (as illustrated by the scriptures sited above) the person ceases to think, feel, see, or indeed be conscious of anything (see Ecclesiastes 9 verse 5). Like a candle that has been snuffed out he *returns* to the same condition as Adam was before God made him. A complete state of non-existence.

Doesn't the word "dead" in the bible just that mean you "continue existing in another form without your body?
No there is nothing in the bible to suggest that the soul (a person, made out of flesh and blood and "animated" by the power or spirit from God) is immortal or survives the death of the body.

**Sometimes the word soul (nephesh) in hebrew is used to refer to "life" (as a soul) and in those few occassions you'll read her "soul went out" but this no more indicates that the person continued to exist than the english expression: "she lost her life" indicates her life is out wandering around somewhere thinking "oh I'm lost, I need a map" or that if the person looked in the right place they'd find it. To "lose" your life or for your "soul to go out of you", is just a figure of speech to say "to die".




FURTHER DETAILS
bjs wrote:Are you arguing for a nihilistic type of hell in which God's condemnation is that the soul ceases to exist?
I'm not sure what "nihilistic means, but the bible *hell* is simply the common grave where we all - good or evil, go. In the grave we are in a state or condition of complete unconsciousness (see Eccl 9: 5; Psalms 146: 4).
bjs wrote:for the soul to be killed it must first be alive.
Yes, since a soul = a living breathing person (man, woman or child) or an living animal, then yes, of course the soul is alive before it can die. People are alive (until they die and then they are "dead souls" or "dead people").
bjs wrote:“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.This says that there is a life beyond the physical body, though God has the power to destroy that life.
Strictly speaking it does not. Obviously the soul cannot be immortal if God can "kill it" (unless you suggesting when God kills a soul it continues to live) but you correctly saw that this verse is speaking about "life". God does indeed have " the power to destroy that life." or your right to life. ( Life as a soul - see explanation above**)
bjs wrote:This speaks of physical death, but says nothing about an immortal soul.
Yes, this is because you will NEVER see the word immortality linked with the word "soul" (nephesh) in scripture. See above for explanation as to why.


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", SOULS and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:16 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Baz
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Post #9

Post by Baz »

It appears that my understanding of the sole is similar to the explanations given so far but I think the descriptions given for the spirit are somewhat different, my understanding is that the spirit of something ( In my view anyway) doesn’t need to be attached to or part of the thing or person that it originates from. A persons spirit is immortal (this could be dependent of your view of God or at least the possibility of eternal consciousness in some form) once formed it is more like an idea. How can an idea die?
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Post #10

Post by myth-one.com »

Xidorn wrote:Do we as humans posses an immortal soul as believed by most people? I am of the view that we do not.
Welcome Xidorn, your view is correct. No man is born into immortal. Jesus became a man so that He could die! But man is the only animal which has the ability to gain immortality according to the Bible. Man can gain immortality if born again as a spirit at or after the Second Coming.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
I believe this verse speaks to the two deaths which can befall mankind. The first death mankind suffers is that which terminates his or her short first physical life on the earth. This is the death which is spoken of as sleep or rest throughout the scriptures. This death is a certainity:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . (Hebrews 9:27)
The majority of mankind will experience this first death without having accepting Jesus as their Savior. Consequently, they will be resurrected at the second resurrection as physical bodies once again. If they do not accept Jesus as their Savior after that time, their physical bodies will be cast into the fires of hell and suffer their second death, which is permanent.

This verse states that we should not fear those which can cause our first death but cannot cause our second death. These would be other men. Rather, we should fear God, who can cause both our first physical death and our permanent second physical death in the fires of hell.

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