Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:55 am
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Ancient stone tablet may prove resurrection predated Jesus

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http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-pr...

The three-foot-high mysterious stone tablet, which has been written on rather than carved, is known as the Angel Gabriel’s Vision of Revelation.
Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."
"This sheds new light on the messianic activity of Jesus," Knohl said to Reuters news agency. "It proves that the concept of the messiah was already there before Jesus,"

Then you have the Epic of Gilgamesh that has similar aspects to the flood story.
The Garden of Eden story is also similar to an earlier myth.

Question for debate: What does this suggest about he Bible being God inspired if in actuality the stories themselves are not original?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:05 pm
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Re: Ancient stone tablet may prove resurrection predated Jes

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Clownboat wrote:
http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-prove-resurrection-predated-Jesus-Christ

The three-foot-high mysterious stone tablet, which has been written on rather than carved, is known as the Angel Gabriel’s Vision of Revelation.
Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."
"This sheds new light on the messianic activity of Jesus," Knohl said to Reuters news agency. "It proves that the concept of the messiah was already there before Jesus,"

Then you have the Epic of Gilgamesh that has similar aspects to the flood story.
The Garden of Eden story is also similar to an earlier myth.

Question for debate: What does this suggest about he Bible being God inspired if in actuality the stories themselves are not original?



Weird. The idea of a Savior-God who dies and rises again appears in Egyptian mythology LONG before Jesus, and in Greek mythology as well. That isn't news.

The idea of Messiah appeared in Jewish tradition long before Jesus, too. That isn't news either.

The only "new" thing about this story is the assertion that the Messiah being a dying and rising PERSON -- I don't see anything here about this "Messiah" being divine -- was ever a part of Jewish tradition about the Messiah. Ever.

THAT would be news, and I'm sure Christians would be overjoyed to see it, since the concept of a dead and resurrected Messiah was never part of Jewish belief, any more than the Messiah being divine ever was. As I've said elsewhere, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are entirely different and unrelated concepts. That remains true.

.....Oh, yeah; to answer the Question for Debate -- since I think the Bible is the literary tradition of the Jewish people and not the literal Word of God anyway, nothing much. Given that, I'd be very surprised indeed if there WEREN'T similar myths and stories that predated the Bible -- and it's been known for a VERY long time that there are. Gilgamesh, the Enuma elish, the Ugaritic texts -- seriously, didn't everyone know that?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:11 am
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Re: Ancient stone tablet may prove resurrection predated Jes

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cnorman18 wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-prove-resurrection-predated-Jesus-Christ

The three-foot-high mysterious stone tablet, which has been written on rather than carved, is known as the Angel Gabriel’s Vision of Revelation.
Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."
"This sheds new light on the messianic activity of Jesus," Knohl said to Reuters news agency. "It proves that the concept of the messiah was already there before Jesus,"

Then you have the Epic of Gilgamesh that has similar aspects to the flood story.
The Garden of Eden story is also similar to an earlier myth.

Question for debate: What does this suggest about he Bible being God inspired if in actuality the stories themselves are not original?



Weird. The idea of a Savior-God who dies and rises again appears in Egyptian mythology LONG before Jesus, and in Greek mythology as well. That isn't news.

The idea of Messiah appeared in Jewish tradition long before Jesus, too. That isn't news either.

The only "new" thing about this story is the assertion that the Messiah being a dying and rising PERSON -- I don't see anything here about this "Messiah" being divine -- was ever a part of Jewish tradition about the Messiah. Ever.

THAT would be news, and I'm sure Christians would be overjoyed to see it, since the concept of a dead and resurrected Messiah was never part of Jewish belief, any more than the Messiah being divine ever was. As I've said elsewhere, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are entirely different and unrelated concepts. That remains true.

.....Oh, yeah; to answer the Question for Debate -- since I think the Bible is the literary tradition of the Jewish people and not the literal Word of God anyway, nothing much. Given that, I'd be very surprised indeed if there WEREN'T similar myths and stories that predated the Bible -- and it's been known for a VERY long time that there are. Gilgamesh, the Enuma elish, the Ugaritic texts -- seriously, didn't everyone know that?


I think many of us knew of the ones you mentioned (not all our readers of course). I guess I just wanted to make mention of this one because it possibly mentions a 3 day resurrection, and it does mention the angel Gabriel. Those I feel are some pretty specific similarities.

Is it possible that Jesus, his followers and/or the later authors were familiar with this story? If so, it's not surprising that the later writings about Jesus included such details. Let's face it, the story had partially been done before.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:02 am
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Re: Ancient stone tablet may prove resurrection predated Jes

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Clownboat wrote:
cnorman18 wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-prove-resurrection-predated-Jesus-Christ

The three-foot-high mysterious stone tablet, which has been written on rather than carved, is known as the Angel Gabriel’s Vision of Revelation.
Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."
"This sheds new light on the messianic activity of Jesus," Knohl said to Reuters news agency. "It proves that the concept of the messiah was already there before Jesus,"

Then you have the Epic of Gilgamesh that has similar aspects to the flood story.
The Garden of Eden story is also similar to an earlier myth.

Question for debate: What does this suggest about he Bible being God inspired if in actuality the stories themselves are not original?



Weird. The idea of a Savior-God who dies and rises again appears in Egyptian mythology LONG before Jesus, and in Greek mythology as well. That isn't news.

The idea of Messiah appeared in Jewish tradition long before Jesus, too. That isn't news either.

The only "new" thing about this story is the assertion that the Messiah being a dying and rising PERSON -- I don't see anything here about this "Messiah" being divine -- was ever a part of Jewish tradition about the Messiah. Ever.

THAT would be news, and I'm sure Christians would be overjoyed to see it, since the concept of a dead and resurrected Messiah was never part of Jewish belief, any more than the Messiah being divine ever was. As I've said elsewhere, the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are entirely different and unrelated concepts. That remains true.

.....Oh, yeah; to answer the Question for Debate -- since I think the Bible is the literary tradition of the Jewish people and not the literal Word of God anyway, nothing much. Given that, I'd be very surprised indeed if there WEREN'T similar myths and stories that predated the Bible -- and it's been known for a VERY long time that there are. Gilgamesh, the Enuma elish, the Ugaritic texts -- seriously, didn't everyone know that?


I think many of us knew of the ones you mentioned (not all our readers of course). I guess I just wanted to make mention of this one because it possibly mentions a 3 day resurrection, and it does mention the angel Gabriel. Those I feel are some pretty specific similarities.



They are; and since there appears to be some disagreement over the significance, the authenticity, and above all the translation of this stone, I'd like to see a little more -- specifically, whether or not the people involved in promoting this find have any theological or ideological axes to grind.

Quote:



Is it possible that Jesus, his followers and/or the later authors were familiar with this story? If so, it's not surprising that the later writings about Jesus included such details. Let's face it, the story had partially been done before.


Yes, it had; but not among Jews, so far as is known. The ossuary that was claimed to be that of James, Jesus's brother, proved to be a fraud. Let's wait and see what the scholarly community has to say.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:02 am
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The UK's Times reports that a previous paper published by scholars Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elitzur concluded that the most controversial lines were indecipherable however a more recent study by Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."

This is sooooooo comical!! Laughing Laughing

Gabriel tells a living Simon that in three days you shall be alive.

When did Simon die?

This article http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-pr... is meaningless unless it can be proved that Simon died sometime during the next two or three days!

A corollary:

Joe is on death row.
Joe’s execution is set for this Thursday morning.
Joe’s lawyer assures Joe on Sunday that three days from now you shall be alive.
On Wednesday Joe is indeed still alive awaiting his Thursday execution.

Was Joe resurrected after three days? d'oh! d'oh!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:15 am
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myth-one.com wrote:
Quote:
The UK's Times reports that a previous paper published by scholars Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elitzur concluded that the most controversial lines were indecipherable however a more recent study by Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."

This is sooooooo comical!! Laughing Laughing

Gabriel tells a living Simon that in three days you shall be alive.

When did Simon die?

This article http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-pr... is meaningless unless it can be proved that Simon died sometime during the next two or three days!

A corollary:

Joe is on death row.
Joe’s execution is set for this Thursday morning.
Joe’s lawyer assures Joe on Sunday that three days from now you shall be alive.
On Wednesday Joe is indeed still alive awaiting his Thursday execution.

Was Joe resurrected after three days? d'oh! d'oh!


Do you think you just refuted that the resurrection story of Jesus may not have been all that original? Please clarify what your execution story was meant to relay.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:28 pm
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Clownboat wrote:
Do you think you just refuted that the resurrection story of Jesus may not have been all that original?

Hi Clownboat. I refuted that the particular article you pointed to in your posting, in no way points to Jesus' resurrection story not being original:

Quote:
The UK's Times reports that a previous paper published by scholars Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elitzur concluded that the most controversial lines were indecipherable however a more recent study by Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."

1) Gabriel tells a living Simon that in three days you shall be alive.

2) Three days later Simon is alive.

3) Then Simon is executed.

My point was that this article http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-pr... is meaningless unless it can be proved that Simon died sometime during the next two or three days after Gabriel's statement.

Clownboat wrote:
Please clarify what your execution story was meant to relay.

A corollary:

Joe is on death row.
Joe’s execution is set for this Thursday morning.
Joe’s lawyer assures Joe on Sunday that three days from now you shall be alive.
On Wednesday Joe is indeed still alive awaiting his Thursday execution.

Was Joe resurrected after three days? d'oh!

Clarification:

1) Joe is informed that he will be alive in three days -- as was Simon.

2) Three days later Joe is alive -- as was Simon.

3) Then Joe was executed -- as was Simon.


Are there any records proving that Simon died within three days of hearing Gabriel's statement that Simon would live three days hence?

If not, then Simon may not have died during those three days, and there was no resurrection of Simon.

Hope that's clear -- sorry for any confusion.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:04 am
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Obviously, this discovery proves one thing. That Satan placed the stone there, via time machine, in order to cast doubt over Xianity, so that Xians would increase their faith, or fall away.
I can see no other explanation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:24 pm
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myth-one.com wrote:
Clownboat wrote:
Do you think you just refuted that the resurrection story of Jesus may not have been all that original?

Hi Clownboat. I refuted that the particular article you pointed to in your posting, in no way points to Jesus' resurrection story not being original:

Quote:
The UK's Times reports that a previous paper published by scholars Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elitzur concluded that the most controversial lines were indecipherable however a more recent study by Israel Knohl, biblical studies professor at Jerusalem's Hebrew University, has concluded the key line 80 of the text as Gabriel telling a historic Jewish rebel named Simon, who was killed by the Romans in 4 BC: "In three days you shall live, I Gabriel, command you."

1) Gabriel tells a living Simon that in three days you shall be alive.

2) Three days later Simon is alive.

3) Then Simon is executed.

My point was that this article http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-pr... is meaningless unless it can be proved that Simon died sometime during the next two or three days after Gabriel's statement.

Clownboat wrote:
Please clarify what your execution story was meant to relay.

A corollary:

Joe is on death row.
Joe’s execution is set for this Thursday morning.
Joe’s lawyer assures Joe on Sunday that three days from now you shall be alive.
On Wednesday Joe is indeed still alive awaiting his Thursday execution.

Was Joe resurrected after three days? d'oh!

Clarification:

1) Joe is informed that he will be alive in three days -- as was Simon.

2) Three days later Joe is alive -- as was Simon.

3) Then Joe was executed -- as was Simon.


Are there any records proving that Simon died within three days of hearing Gabriel's statement that Simon would live three days hence?

If not, then Simon may not have died during those three days, and there was no resurrection of Simon.

Hope that's clear -- sorry for any confusion.


That cleared it up, thank you.

I'm going to stick with that it is likely a resurrection claim. At this point I cannot prove that to be true.

It just seems more likely than Gabriel telling a living guy that in 3 days you will still be living.

Do you think you will be alive in 3 days. I do, and that is without an angel telling me.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:38 am
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Greed philosophy

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Greed rationalism, which is closely tied to Judaism and Christianity, did not believe in ressurection since there was no death and therefore no need to be ressurected. Like the Tibetan Buddhists they believed in the survival of the spirit. There is no death.

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