Does god seem a little needy for a perfect being?

[Everso]

If god is perfect why does he need all this praise and glorification? This to me seems like a flaw in his supposed perfection. He is also - self confessed - a jealous god. Is this not another failing?

From the outside he comes off as an angry child in need of constantly being told he is not only wonderful but their parents favorite child. This does not sound like any sort of perfect being to me.

Everso.

P.S. this is my first post. I have read the rules and as far as I can tell this is a valid question in the right place but please let me know if I have broken a rule and I will be happy to edit my post.

[JehovahsWitness]

If god is perfect why does he need all this praise and glorification?

God is complete in himself and needs nothing. We however need him and he deeply desires us to have all we need to be happy. Humans were created with certain needs, the need for water, the need for food, the need for adequate sleep. God also created us with a "spiritual need" to have a relationship with him. People that don't satisfy that need will feel there is "something missing" although they're not sure what.

They will ask questions, such as: What happens at death? Why do we die? What is the purpose of life? Is there a God that cares? Why does God allow suffering...? And they will search and search for satisfying answers. They will hang out in Religion and Spritituality websites, posting questions and angry and sacastic comments in frustration at the lack of viable answers ...

Knowing God answers our questions and knowing God is the basis for a happy and fulfilled life and God wants the very best for his children, so he humbles himself enough to appeal to us, to do the right thing. That "right thing" will make him (God) happy and be very good for us (see Proverbs 27: 11).

Does God have the right to demand worship?

Yes, because worshipping the creator is the right thing to do. And God has the right to demand we do what is right. Just as a loving mother, that cares and cherishes her baby when it was helpless and would have died without her, has the right to expect respect, God who gave us every good thing, every pleasure, every meal we eat, every joy we experience has the right to thanks.

To illustrate: A fireman leaps into a burning building to save your life. Without his actions you would have surely died. You can dust yourself off and go on your way without a word to him or you can give him sincere thanks. Does he have the right to expect your thanks, yes, by virtue of the fact he went to such effort to help you. Does he FORCE the victim to thank him? No, that would devalue the thanks.

That fireman only helped PRESERVE the life, God GAVE the life. If a fireman derserves thanks how much more the "giver of life"?

...a jealous god. Is this not another failing?

Unlike in English, the Hebrew and Greek ze′los words translated “jealousy� in the Bible carry a wide range of meanings. They can have either a positive or a negative connotation, depending on how the words are used.

For instance, the Hebrew word qin·’ah′ translated “jealousy� can mean “insistence on exclusive devotion; toleration of no rivalry; zeal; ardor; jealousy [righteous or sinful]; envying.� The corresponding Greek ze′los word has a similar meaning. These words CAN refer to a warped, distorted emotion toward a suspected rival or one believed to be enjoying an advantage. (Proverbs 14:30) They can also refer to a positive expression of a God-given quality—wanting to protect a loved one from harm.—2 Corinthians 11:2.

Thus when the word quinah is mentioned in connection with our creator it is not evidence of a personality flaw rather evidence of his zeal, righteous ardor, and enthusiasm for what is good and right.

[stlekee]

First I have to say that your conception of God seems very immature and undeveloped. But if that's what you choose to believe, that's on you, not God..

My God is not needy, he is all giving and loving - quite the opposite of yours. I would choose to be an atheist before accepting a god like yours...

No offense intended, but you might want to try imagining God in a more positive manner.

If your intent is to justify atheism, your god is very easy to reject. How about justifying rejecting a giving god of love and mercy?

[Everso]

God is complete in himself and needs nothing.

That is the point of this question and I think so far remains unproven.

Humans were created with certain needs,

Then if he is all powerful why doe he not fulfill these needs?

God also created us with a "spiritual need" to have a relationship with him. People that don't satisfy that need will feel there is "something missing" although they're not sure what.

Certainly not me - and I suspect many others

They will ask questions, such as: What happens at death? Why do we die? What is the purpose of life? Is there a God that cares? Why does God allow suffering...? And they will search and search for satisfying answers. They will hang out in Religion and Spritituality websites, posting questions and angry and sacastic comments in frustration at the lack of viable answers ...

I know what happens when we die - we are dead.

The purpose of life is to do what you can for your own reasons, ideally without need to reference a spiritual boggy man who will spank you for an eternity if he didn't like what you did.

I don't think anything I have said is angry or sarcastic.

As for the frustration - it's feels like you are trying to teach a small child what 1+1= and are repeatedly getting the wrong answer. You just don't understand how they don't get it. I personally come here to understand another persons point of view. It constantly amazes me how some apparently otherwise intelligent people can hold these things in their head without it exploding.I know one person who has a masters in engineering. Monday to Friday he writes reports about how stable a bit of land is and it's safe to build on because there has been no seismic activity for 1,000,000 years then on Sunday goes to church and believes the earth is only 6,000 years old. How does he manage two separate views like that without serious mental issues.

God wants the very best for his children, so he humbles himself enough to appeal to us, to do the right thing. That "right thing" will make him (God) happy and be very good for us (see Proverbs 27: 11).

Again - if he wants us to have the best - give it to us.

Does God have the right to demand worship?

Yes, because worshipping the creator is the right thing to do. And God has the right to demand we do what is right. Just as a loving mother, that cares and cherishes her baby when it was helpless and would have died without her, has the right to expect respect, God who gave us every good thing, every pleasure, every meal we eat, every joy we experience has the right to thanks.

So god only gave us all these wonderland but flawed gifts so he could then turn around when we were older and demand worship. That's like having children and raising them from birth with the expectation and demand that they look after us when we get older. This seems like a morally bankrupt way to go about things. Very selfish and self serving - both very human flaws.

Plus there is a big difference between expecting respect and DEMANDING worship. And make no mistake - he does demand it or else he will torture you for ever.

To illustrate: A fireman leaps into a burning building to save your life. Without his actions you would have surely died. You can dust yourself off and go on your way without a word to him or you can give him sincere thanks. Does he have the right to expect your thanks, yes, by virtue of the fact he went to such effort to help you. Does he FORCE the victim to thank him? No, that would devalue the thanks.

A fireman had the right but does not DEMAND. Again - god will punish you for an eternity if you do not worship him. Also if you were rescued and thanked a fireman but not the one that carried you out of the building would the one you should have been thanking come up behind you and split you in 2 with his axe? Because if you worship the wrong god that is worse than not worshiping him at all. Again it seems like a very flawed god.

Unlike in English, the Hebrew and Greek ze′los words translated “jealousy� in the Bible carry a wide range of meanings. They can have either a positive or a negative connotation, depending on how the words are used.

For instance, the Hebrew word qin·’ah′ translated “jealousy� can mean “insistence on exclusive devotion; toleration of no rivalry; zeal; ardor; jealousy [righteous or sinful]; envying.� The corresponding Greek ze′los word has a similar meaning. These words CAN refer to a warped, distorted emotion toward a suspected rival or one believed to be enjoying an advantage. (Proverbs 14:30) They can also refer to a positive expression of a God-given quality—wanting to protect a loved one from harm.—2 Corinthians 11:2.

I would be more inclined to think it is you that are trying to warp the meaning to give a positive spin. How about to decide if it is a positive or negative thing we look at the situation and ignore the semantics and possible misinterpretations of translation.

So - parent has a child - they grow up and are successful - parent happy in a job well done. They may get upset that the child does not call often enough but that does not make them go out and murder their own child for lack of respect. I think we can rule out the "parental" interpretation of the word.

Now - parent has child - as they grow up the child starts hanging out at a friends house because the friends parents are "cooler". So the parent decided this is wrong and kills their child for liking other parents more than them. This seems more like the situation we have here.

So I am afraid that your god still seems to me to be tremendously flawed.

Everso

[Everso]

First I have to say that your conception of God seems very immature and undeveloped. But if that's what you choose to believe, that's on you, not God..

My God is not needy, he is all giving and loving - quite the opposite of yours. I would choose to be an atheist before accepting a god like yours...

I would be interested in your interpretation as well.

[Zzyzx]

.

If your intent is to justify atheism, your god is very easy to reject. How about justifying rejecting a giving god of love and mercy?

The "god" of the bible is depicted as jealous, angry, egocentric, hostile and homicidal.

Those who attempt to justify worshiping that "god" claim "he" is loving and merciful.

The most despicable of dictators may be "loving and merciful" toward a few select people (the "chosen" -- the sheep -- fawning followers) while being exactly the opposite toward those who refuse to worship him or obey his rules. The "inner circle" may view him as benevolent.

Sound familiar?

[cnorman18]

.

If your intent is to justify atheism, your god is very easy to reject. How about justifying rejecting a giving god of love and mercy?

The "god" of the bible is depicted as jealous, angry, egocentric, hostile and homicidal.

Those who attempt to justify worshiping that "god" claim "he" is loving and merciful.

The most despicable of dictators may be "loving and merciful" toward a few select people (the "chosen" -- the sheep -- fawning followers) while being exactly the opposite toward those who refuse to worship him or obey his rules. The "inner circle" may view him as benevolent.

Sound familiar?

Quite, and that is indeed the perspective of some, at least, who might be identified as "fundamentalists" and/or "literalists."

Those objections, however, don't apply to those who approach the Bible as it is -- a collection of ancient documents, the literary heritage of a people. as opposed to a letter from God. (I here speak of the Hebrew Bible, or "Old Testament." I have no comment and no opinion on the New.)

The God of the Bible is God as understood by people -- at least a few people -- of several thousand years ago. One would hope that our understanding of God would have advanced, or at least changed, a bit since then. The Yahwist, whoever he or she was, probably didn't know much about infectious disease or astrophysics either.

[stlekee]

I consider myself a liberal christian, quite different than a fundamentalist or one who takes the bible literally. I also think (believe) that Christianity is not a stagment religion, but that it can change or adapt to a changing world. Everything changes, including people's conception of God.

Religion is an attempt to understand God, within the context of the culture of the time. But religion is not God, its just an attempt to explain, define, imagine God. My ideas about God are not limited to ancient concepts from long gone civilizations. God is bigger than the Bible. I prefer the God of the Universe to a god of the Bible. In the same manner I prefer a Jesus as a teacher and example of human potential, not a Christ hanging on a cross.

[JehovahsWitness]

God is complete in himself and needs nothing.

That is the point of this question and I think so far remains unproven.

One does not have to "prove" everything for it to be true, this is a 21st century idiotic notion that dismisses the role deduction and logic has in reasonable analysis of information. By definition, that which caused "everything" would not be dependent on said "everything" to exist (or else it/he would not be able to exist to be the *first cause*) It is intellectually lazy to not use ones power of deduction in the absence of direct or absolute "evidence".

Humans were created with certain needs,

Then if he is all powerful why doe he not fulfill these needs?[

To name some of those "certain need":

• * the need for air. This need has been fulfilled (satisfied) by putting humans on a planet with a sufficient supply of air and lungs that can process it.
  *Another need is the need for water. This need has been satisfied by putting humans on a planet with an abundant supply of water.

So as I said, God "God has created humans with "certain needs"

God also created us with a "spiritual need" to have a relationship with him. People that don't satisfy that need will feel there is "something missing" although they're not sure what.

Certainly not me - and I suspect many others

I contend you (and those like you) are simply not "conscious", as Jesus Christ put it, of that need, but that it is just as much a part of humans basic needs as the need to eat and sleep and to love and to be loved. There has never been a human society without religion, and socialoligists contend that it seemed we are "hard wired" for religion, I propose that this is evidence of that we are indeed all created with some kind of spiritual inclination.

I know what happens when we die - we are dead.The purpose of life is to do what you can for your own reasons, ideally without need to reference a spiritual boggy man who will spank you for an eternity if he didn't like what you did.

And what scientific proof do you have that permits you to make such a positive statement "I KNOW" - remember the proof will somehow have to document another dimension in another universe not accessible to the physical. As the most you can only say you don't "believe" this to be the case. To which I reply: "fair enough". For the record, neither do I.

I don't think anything I have said is angry or sarcastic.

Did I imply that YOU had? I made a general statement about individuals that are spiritually frustrated. Unless you personally would describe yourself as someone that is "spiritually frustrated" I don't see how my remarks could possible apply to you.

God wants the very best for his children, [...]

Again - if he wants us to have the best - give it to us

Like all loving and sensible parents, God will indeed satisfy ALL our needs but in due time in relation to the vital issues at hand.

So god only gave us all these wonderland but flawed gifts so he could then turn around when we were older and demand worship. [...]

That is exactly right. He doesn't force us to comply but it is not for us to impose our standards on him and deny him the right to demand what he BELIEVES he has the right to ask for. You may conclude personally that he has no right to believe as he does, you may even go so far that he has no right to even EXPRESS that belief and open his mouth to say what he believes he has the right to say; that again is your right. What you cannot do is impose your restriction on Him and force him to silence. His demands are recorded in the bible and the bible is not going anywhere. Thus what God wants from his Creation is out there, for better or worse.

god will punish you for an eternity if you do not worship him.

I am not Catholic, you will have to ask someone that believes in eternal torment/punishment about that. As my name suggests I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - your statement implies you are not aware that not all Christians believe in eternal torment. In any case I respectfully inform you that the bible does not teach that humans will be eternally punished (I take this to mean eternally "burnt/tortured in hell" for refusing to worship Him.

Unlike in English, the Hebrew and Greek ze′los words translated “jealousy� in the Bible carry a wide range of meanings.

I would be more inclined to think it is you that are trying to warp the meaning to give a positive spin. How about to decide if it is a positive or negative thing we look at the situation and ignore the semantics and possible misinterpretations of translation.

I made a linguistically factual statement about the meaning of a Hebrew word. If you have anything serious to say about its translation please present (with relevant references) the evidence to support your counter-argument. In the absence of your demonstrating that the original Hebrew did NOT allow for both positive or negative understanding, your comment is quite frankly unworthy of any further response. I respectfully decline a quite ludicrous invitation to ignore the body of scholarly research and understanding as to the meaning of a word (as derived from both a knowledge of the language and contexual analysis of its occurances) in favor of a purely personal interpretation of "the situation" (whatever that vague, probably subjective and entirely unacademic expression may mean to you).

My references
qin'âh Strong's #7068
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:ardour, zeal, passion
Greek Septuguint "zelos" English "zealous"

[ChristShepherd]

First I have to say that your conception of God seems very immature and undeveloped. But if that's what you choose to believe, that's on you, not God..

My God is not needy, he is all giving and loving - quite the opposite of yours. I would choose to be an atheist before accepting a god like yours...

No offense intended, but you might want to try imagining God in a more positive manner.

If your intent is to justify atheism, your god is very easy to reject. How about justifying rejecting a giving god of love and mercy?

I disagree with your assesment of God's character.
When I was a child, my father used to read to me from the Bible.
I always remember how the following story upset me.
See what you think.
They placed the ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart. So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark. Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals. But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God

Would it have been better if Uzzah allowed the Ark to fall off the cart?
What kind of God would kill a man whose intent was to do a good deed?

Christ Shepherd