Choosing hearts

[stevencarrwork]

Romans 9
15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy....8Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden..

Why does it not depend on man's desire whose God chooses to harden?

How does God choose whose heart he hardens?

Does he choose people whose hearts are hardened, and then harden their hearts?

[Overcomer]

Romans 9
15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy....8Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden..

Why does it not depend on man's desire whose God chooses to harden?

How does God choose whose heart he hardens?

Does he choose people whose hearts are hardened, and then harden their hearts?

I have already explained this in another thread. But I will repeat it in case you missed it.

This passage in the New Testament refers to the Old Testament passage about the Pharaoh. Moses asks him, in the name of God, to release the Israelites from slavery. The Bible says that the Pharaoh hardened his heart. Later, we read that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart as well.

If you go back to the original Hebrew, you will see that the verbs in each case are different and carry a different connotation. In the first case, the Pharaoh chooses to harden his heart. It's clear that it's his choice. He doesn't have any respect for God and he rejects Moses' request.

When it speaks of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart, it refers to the fact that God confirmed the Pharaoh's choice. In other words, the Pharaoh chose to reject God so God said, "Okay. If that's what you want." At that point in time, he merely speeds up the process of Pharaoh's heart-hardening to get to the point where the Israelites were finally released.

God sees right into the heart of a person and knows who is going to come to him in love and who is going to reject him in hatred. Therefore, when he hardens a person's heart, he is hardening the heart of a person who will NEVER come to him. God is only giving people what they themselves have wanted and chosen.

Bear in mind that there may well be atheists here on this board who have chosen to harden their hearts against God and, knowing that they will NEVER accept Christ into their lives, God may well harden their hearts. He does so in order to use them for his own purpose, that is, to bless his children in the same manner that he used the Pharaoh to bring about the release of the Israelites from captivity.

[ST88]

Bear in mind that there may well be atheists here on this board who have chosen to harden their hearts against God and, knowing that they will NEVER accept Christ into their lives, God may well harden their hearts. He does so in order to use them for his own purpose, that is, to bless his children in the same manner that he used the Pharaoh to bring about the release of the Israelites from captivity.

What, exactly, does "hardening of hearts" mean? From the way you explained it, it sounds like it means that atheists will never have the "heart" required to accept God. But if they are atheists, they won't have this ability anyway. What is it that God is doing by hardening the heart?

[stevencarrwork]

Romans 9
15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy....8Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden..

Why does it not depend on man's desire whose God chooses to harden?

How does God choose whose heart he hardens?

Does he choose people whose hearts are hardened, and then harden their hearts?

God sees right into the heart of a person and knows who is going to come to him in love and who is going to reject him in hatred. Therefore, when he hardens a person's heart, he is hardening the heart of a person who will NEVER come to him. God is only giving people what they themselves have wanted and chosen.

Bear in mind that there may well be atheists here on this board who have chosen to harden their hearts against God and, knowing that they will NEVER accept Christ into their lives, God may well harden their hearts. He does so in order to use them for his own purpose, that is, to bless his children in the same manner that he used the Pharaoh to bring about the release of the Israelites from captivity.

OVERCOMER
God is only giving people what they themselves have wanted and chosen.

THE BIBLE (in the very passage Overcome was discussing)
' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.'

What nonsense the Bible speaks! It is clear that it *does* depend on man's desire. Overcomer said so. If somebody desires not to choose God, and hardens his heart against him, then God will harden that person's heart.

You write :-
'Bear in mind that there may well be atheists here on this board who have chosen to harden their hearts against God and, knowing that they will NEVER accept Christ into their lives, God may well harden their hearts.'


So God hardens hearts which are hard? How does God harden a heart which has already been hardened?

God knows that that person will never accept Christ (unlike , say, Paul who accepted Christ after a personal visit from the Lord, and after being personally given the power to work miracles)

How does God know that personal visits from Christ and giving atheists the power to work miracles will still not convince atheists, and that he has no alternative execpt to harden their hearts?

[Vladd44]

3 degrees to the right of the current topic.... but directly related to the "freewill" concept that god hardening anyones heart would be in contradiction of.

But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

........

And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

EIther way you look at it, freewill is a fabrication if the bible is true. In this case, Abimelech clearly was interested in Sarah for sexual/marital/relationship reasons. If god held him back, it was against his agenda.

Of course if we cant figure out who qualifies for a heart hardener, I wonder if we can find out who god protects against sinning against their will.

[Arch]

I have already explained this in another thread. But I will repeat it in case you missed it.

If you go back to the original Hebrew, you will see that the verbs in each case are different and carry a different connotation. In the first case, the Pharaoh chooses to harden his heart. It's clear that it's his choice. He doesn't have any respect for God and he rejects Moses' request.

When it speaks of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart, it refers to the fact that God confirmed the Pharaoh's choice. In other words, the Pharaoh chose to reject God so God said, "Okay. If that's what you want." At that point in time, he merely speeds up the process of Pharaoh's heart-hardening to get to the point where the Israelites were finally released.

God sees right into the heart of a person and knows who is going to come to him in love and who is going to reject him in hatred. Therefore, when he hardens a person's heart, he is hardening the heart of a person who will NEVER come to him. God is only giving people what they themselves have wanted and chosen.

You may have explained what you think is a correct explaination, but it makes no sense.

1. Why would GOD need to confirm Pharoahs hardening of his heart?

2. If GOD already knows who has a hardened heart and will never accept him then it is because he create them that way. They were created with this hardened heart so this whol expirament we call humanity is in vain and just a video play out of a play created by GOD where everyone has a set role and can't be altered.

3. Why would it be neccessary to PREACH Chrisitanity if GOD already knows who wil accept him and those who will not accept him cant be changed into accepting him?

4. Why doesn't Jesus visit personally everyone who doesn't believe like he did PAUL? Why isn't everyone else given the same chance Paul was given. If it were not for that road to damascus thing Paul would have died a Christian killer.

Bear in mind that there may well be atheists here on this board who have chosen to harden their hearts against God and, knowing that they will NEVER accept Christ into their lives, God may well harden their hearts. He does so in order to use them for his own purpose, that is, to bless his children in the same manner that he used the Pharaoh to bring about the release of the Israelites from captivity.

What about the agnostics are their hearts hardened too? So God creates atheists anf agnostics in order to show his will. That is the real reason he hardened Pahroahs heart in the Israelite story to show his power. If pharoah had just let them go. Then GOD wouldn't have had to do all those plauges and miracles. Thus the power of GOD wouldn't have been shown.

It like learning karate becoming a master then hoping someone picks a fight with you so you can show off

You just cant kick someones butt for no reason, then that would make you a bully and not a good person.