Christianity in Jewish clothing

[flitzerbiest]

Many of you have heard of Jews for Jesus, but probably fewer of you realize that its constituency is loaded with fundamentalist Christians who "discover" a remote family connection to Judaism as they engage in a campaign to aggressively target Jews for proselytization. IOW, "Christians claiming to be Jewish to Convert Jews" might be a more honest title.

Against that backdrop, my brother in law is bringing his family to our home for Thanksgiving weekend. He is a fundamentalist involved in a church that increasingly is practicing Jewish ritual. I do not think that he is a member of J4J, but his family now keeps shabbat, celebrates Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. Last summer, he had my family over to his home (I was not along on the trip) for a shabbat dinner. At any rate, he has now announced (through my wife) that he intends to hold another shabbat dinner this weekend--in MY home. My wife (who is a more open minded and doubting Christian than when we met/married, but still a Christian) is supportive. She also has said that I need not participate, but questions why I wouldn't want to--those of you who are married recognize the trap.

Questions for debate:

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

[Goat]

Many of you have heard of Jews for Jesus, but probably fewer of you realize that its constituency is loaded with fundamentalist Christians who "discover" a remote family connection to Judaism as they engage in a campaign to aggressively target Jews for proselytization. IOW, "Christians claiming to be Jewish to Convert Jews" might be a more honest title.

Against that backdrop, my brother in law is bringing his family to our home for Thanksgiving weekend. He is a fundamentalist involved in a church that increasingly is practicing Jewish ritual. I do not think that he is a member of J4J, but his family now keeps shabbat, celebrates Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. Last summer, he had my family over to his home (I was not along on the trip) for a shabbat dinner. At any rate, he has now announced (through my wife) that he intends to hold another shabbat dinner this weekend--in MY home. My wife (who is a more open minded and doubting Christian than when we met/married, but still a Christian) is supportive. She also has said that I need not participate, but questions why I wouldn't want to--those of you who are married recognize the trap.

Questions for debate:

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

They are nice rituals, I feel comfortable with them. The use of the rituals will not sway any Jewish person who has the proper education anyway. If they want to play 'Let's act like Jews', then let them. ..

From what I have seen, more people are lead to Judaism via those methods than from Judaism. I know a number of Jewish people that were either strictly secular, or Christians that either 'discovered' their Jewish roots and faith via such methods, or CHristians who eventually turned away from belief in Jesus as the Messiah.

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

Well, that depends on your b-i-l. You might want to read up here how the Jewish concept of the Messiah is different that the Christian concept, and frustrate the heck out of him by pointing those issues out if you are a masochist.

It could be that they are acknowledging the religious roots of Jesus (although i doubt it). After all, if Judaism is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for them.

[McCulloch]

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

Try not to judge the motives of people unless they make their motives clear. Since no-one in your tribe is involved with Jews for Jesus, why assume that their adoption of some Jewish ritual is an attempt to win converts? The very Christian, Seventh-day Adventist Church has adopted the the Jewish recognition of the holiness of the seventh day of the week rather than the traditional Christian first day of the week. So what? If it has meaning to them, then why not?

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

Run if you wish, exercise is good for your health. One of the great joys of being a non-theist, is that I can feel free to join into whatever celebration brings me enjoyment, Christmas, Eid, Diwali, Rosh Hashanah and Lughnasadh. However, I suspect that this ritual will lack any feel of being genuine. Shabbat is not part of your family's traditions or heritage.

[flitzerbiest]

You might want to read up here how the Jewish concept of the Messiah is different that the Christian concept, and frustrate the heck out of him by pointing those issues out if you are a masochist.

Been there, done that. Before leaving Christianity, I came to the conclusion (through EXTENSIVE study) that it was largely fueled by:

1. An atrocious misunderstanding of Jewish prophecy.
2. A strong infusion of Greek paganism (and likely Zoroastrianism).
3. A message of deliverance for the oppressed.

Would that Christians had stayed with #3.

[Jrosemary]

I once invited a friend of mine who's a Fundamentalist, Pentacostal minister to Shabbat dinner. When it was over, he turned to me and said, "Christians have no idea what they're missing!"

To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't started hosting his own Shabbat dinners. But I wouldn't be upset if he did. He was a perfect guest--and he didn't preach to anyone or try to convert anyone. In fact, he has never once given me a conversion schpiel or treated me or my religion with anything less than perfect respect.

I don't have an issue with Christians who want to host Shabbat dinners or host a Seder or what have you. As far as Christians who call themselves Jews . . . to me, a Jew is anyone who is accepted as such by one of the four branches of Judaism: Orthodox, Conservative/Masorti, Reform/Progressive, or Reconstructionist.

I'm not sure why Messianic Christians (I won't call them Messianic Jews) and such call themselves Jews. All the ones I've met have no connection to Judaism--and, anyway, the religion they practice is Christianity. Even if there are some who are halachically Jewish (Jewish per Jewish law), they're still practicing Christians. Sure, they may adopt and adapt alot of Jewish ritual, but they're still Christians. Why are they ashamed of calling themselves such?

If they're hoping to decieve Jews into converting to Christianity, I don't think it's a good tact. The Jews I know who have become Christians converted to a regular Christian Church--they became Catholics or Episcopalians or Presbyterians or what have you. None became Messianics. (Plenty of Christians also convert to Judaism, of course.)

So the conversion schpiels from pretend Jews are annoying--but a Jew with a firm grounding in Judaism doesn't have much to fear from them. Meanwhile, I have no issue with Christians who just want to borrow Shabbat dinners, Seders, or other aspects of Judaism. Borrowing can be a good thing.

[flitzerbiest]

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

Try not to judge the motives of people unless they make their motives clear. Since no-one in your tribe is involved with Jews for Jesus, why assume that their adoption of some Jewish ritual is an attempt to win converts? The very Christian, Seventh-day Adventist Church has adopted the the Jewish recognition of the holiness of the seventh day of the week rather than the traditional Christian first day of the week. So what? If it has meaning to them, then why not?

Well, for one thing, it's my house. Further, it's my son's birthday, and likely not the way he would like to celebrate it. If we were spending the Thanksgiving holidays with my brother-in-laws family, I assure you that this thread would not exist. The mere fact that he wishes to impose his family ritual on our household betrays at least a measure of proselytizing zeal.

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

Run if you wish, exercise is good for your health. One of the great joys of being a non-theist, is that I can feel free to join into whatever celebration brings me enjoyment, Christmas, Eid, Diwali, Rosh Hashanah and Lughnasadh. However, I suspect that this ritual will lack any feel of being genuine. Shabbat is not part of your family's traditions or heritage.

I got six miles in this morning. Nothing like a fast, a hard run, then a feast. You are correct--the ritual will mean nothing to me--not because I am not Jewish, but because I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and got to experience these rituals in their original religious context. Participating in a sham shabbat, in English, with Christian overtones holds no attraction for me whatsoever.

[McCulloch]

Well, for one thing, it's my house.

[flitzerbiest]

Well, for one thing, it's my house.

Correction: It's my wife's house and I live in it.

[cnorman18]

Issues over whether or not it's your wife's house and whether you have a say are above my pay grade; not my business. That's to be worked out within the family.

That said, as a former Christian who is now fully Jewish, I have no particular objections to Christians adapting Jewish observances to their own practice.

Most Jews are aware of the deceptive nature of Jews for Jesus, and of "Messianic synagogues." In my experience, the vast majority of "Messianic Jews" were never Jewish, and are in fact Christians who want to practice Jewish ritual and observances and call themselves Jews. I no longer have any objection to that either, and here's why:

Once a Christian begins to look into the Jewish religion, he (or she) may discover, first, that the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Christ are two entirely different concepts with almost nothing in common (as I have detailed elsewhere, and more than once). Then, he may discover the refreshing absence of dogmatism in the Jewish religion, and the equally refreshing freedom of thought and openness to debate and argument -- indeed, the fact that rational debate, argument and discussion are integral to a deeper understanding of the Jewish religion and always have been. He may eventually decide that he prefers Judaism to Christianity and become a "Noachite" -- that is, a Gentile who worships the God of Israel, an option that few know even exists; or he may eventually go for full conversion. I didn't take the "Messianic Synagogue" route myself, but more than a few Jewish converts have.

We don't have a fake "Christians for Judaism" program that pretends to show Christians how they can adopt the beliefs and practices of Judaism and remain Christians -- mostly because they can't -- though we do have a "Jews for Judaism" organization which was founded and is intended to counter the deceptions and distortions characteristic of fundamentalist efforts to convert actual Jews to Christianity. Even so, Christians are converting to Judaism in surprising numbers. That's anecdotal; we don't keep records of such things, to my knowledge, and we don't trumpet it to the skies; but, even here in Dallas, a town rather well-known to be heavily Christian and heavily fundamentalist, an astonishing number of Jews that I know personally, in five (5) different synagogues and temples, have turned out to be converts. I know of four former Methodist ministers, including myself, who have converted to Conservative Judaism; one of them is now a rabbi. I also know of Jews who are former Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians (Anglicans, for our UK friends), and a few who are former Baptists.

We Jews, don't advertise, we don't seek out converts, we don't put on "crusades" or evangelize, and we don't actively promote conversion in any way; in fact, as is (I hope) well known here, we traditionally discourage potential converts at first, and for quite some time after they begin to show interest. Jews do not proselytize Gentiles, as a rule. (It is true that some Orthodox Jews, notably the Lubavitcher Chasids through the Chabad network, proselytize liberal or secular Jews in an effort to bring them into the Orthodox branch and encourage strict observance, those efforts do not extend to non-Jews.) Still, Gentiles are converting to Judaism in remarkable numbers, and from what I've seen, that trend is accelerating. I can only regard that as a good thing; but then, I'm Jewish now.

(One more note; don't be fooled by the name. "Conservative Judaism" is the name of a liberal movement within Judaism, and is not the same as Orthodox Judaism, which is the kind that most non-Jews would consider "conservative." In Israel it is known as Masorti Judaism, and I for one hope that the name catches on here. It's less confusing, I think.)

[Sheitl Queen]

Many of you have heard of Jews for Jesus, but probably fewer of you realize that its constituency is loaded with fundamentalist Christians who "discover" a remote family connection to Judaism as they engage in a campaign to aggressively target Jews for proselytization. IOW, "Christians claiming to be Jewish to Convert Jews" might be a more honest title.

Most of them have absolutely no Jewish background at all. It's getting to be
a growing movement. The issue I have with many of them is calling themselves
Jews when they are not. It's deceptive.

I personally do not like them using our rituals traditions because I consider
it being used in idol worship. Plus people assume they are Jews and that's
it's okay for Jews to believe in Jesus.

He is a fundamentalist involved in a church that increasingly is practicing Jewish ritual.

I see no point to it as they are not commanded to follow the mitzvot, neither
are they a part of the covenant. And to use mix Jewish culture into their
lives is just plain silly.

At any rate, he has now announced (through my wife) that he intends to hold another shabbat dinner this weekend--in MY home.

Well it's your home and you have the right to say "no" if you don't want
this in your home.

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

The haven't had much success converting Jews, so now they are out to
convert non-Messianic Christians to their Messianic faith.

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

none at all.