Christianity in Jewish clothing

[flitzerbiest]

Many of you have heard of Jews for Jesus, but probably fewer of you realize that its constituency is loaded with fundamentalist Christians who "discover" a remote family connection to Judaism as they engage in a campaign to aggressively target Jews for proselytization. IOW, "Christians claiming to be Jewish to Convert Jews" might be a more honest title.

Against that backdrop, my brother in law is bringing his family to our home for Thanksgiving weekend. He is a fundamentalist involved in a church that increasingly is practicing Jewish ritual. I do not think that he is a member of J4J, but his family now keeps shabbat, celebrates Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. Last summer, he had my family over to his home (I was not along on the trip) for a shabbat dinner. At any rate, he has now announced (through my wife) that he intends to hold another shabbat dinner this weekend--in MY home. My wife (who is a more open minded and doubting Christian than when we met/married, but still a Christian) is supportive. She also has said that I need not participate, but questions why I wouldn't want to--those of you who are married recognize the trap.

Questions for debate:

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

[Sheitl Queen]

Many of you have heard of Jews for Jesus, but probably fewer of you realize that its constituency is loaded with fundamentalist Christians who "discover" a remote family connection to Judaism as they engage in a campaign to aggressively target Jews for proselytization. IOW, "Christians claiming to be Jewish to Convert Jews" might be a more honest title.

Most of them have absolutely no Jewish background at all. It's getting to be
a growing movement. The issue I have with many of them is calling themselves
Jews when they are not. It's deceptive.

I personally do not like them using our rituals traditions because I consider
it being used in idol worship. Plus people assume they are Jews and that's
it's okay for Jews to believe in Jesus.

He is a fundamentalist involved in a church that increasingly is practicing Jewish ritual.

I see no point to it as they are not commanded to follow the mitzvot, neither
are they a part of the covenant. And to mix Jewish culture into their
lives is just plain silly.

At any rate, he has now announced (through my wife) that he intends to hold another shabbat dinner this weekend--in MY home.

Well it's your home and you have the right to say "no" if you don't want
this in your home.

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

The haven't had much success converting Jews, so now they are out to
convert non-Messianic Christians to their Messianic faith.

2. Any reason why I shouldn't run like hell Friday at sundown?

none at all.

[McCulloch]

By the way, otseng's new school is deeply involved with this stuff. Talbot School of Theology is the seminary of Biola University. It offers a Masters of Divinity in Messianic Jewish Studies.

The emphasis in Messianic Jewish Studies, offered at the New York City extension, provides training and preparation for a variety of professional ministries that serve the Jewish community in roles such as Messianic congregational leader, outreach, missions worker, or educator. Includes opportunities for specialized study of the Bible and theological reflection with a focus on aspects of Jewish studies. Enrollment in emphasis-specific courses is limited to students admitted to Messianic Jewish Studies emphasis.

Goals

As a result of this program, the student will:

• Master the Hebrew language.
• Develop competency in Hebrew exegesis.
• Incorporate an understanding of Rabbinic thought and Old Testament Law in course studies and discipleship.
• Employ knowledge of Jewish culture and values effectively in diverse ministry situations.
• Develop skills of ministry specifically appropriate for the Jewish community, including the following proficiencies:
• Students will be skilled in using Jewish liturgy in Messianic worship and practice (holidays, funerals, marriages, rites of passage, and music).
• Students will speak and write with understanding about Jewish backgrounds of the Christian faith.
• Students will be able to prepare biblical messages appropriate for the Messianic Jewish community.
• Students will provide biblical pastoral counsel for the unique needs of the Messianic Jewish community.
• As a result of personal experience, students will be able to describe the significance of modern Israel in the Jewish community.

The program director is Gregory Hagg who in addition to serving as professor of Bible Exposition at Talbot, he also serves as Vice President for Academic Advancement with Chosen People Ministries, an evangelical outreach to Jewish people with headquarters in New York.

[flitzerbiest]

By the way, otseng's new school is deeply involved with this stuff. Talbot School of Theology is the seminary of Biola University. It offers a Masters of Divinity in Messianic Jewish Studies.

The emphasis in Messianic Jewish Studies, offered at the New York City extension, provides training and preparation for a variety of professional ministries that serve the Jewish community in roles such as Messianic congregational leader, outreach, missions worker, or educator. Includes opportunities for specialized study of the Bible and theological reflection with a focus on aspects of Jewish studies. Enrollment in emphasis-specific courses is limited to students admitted to Messianic Jewish Studies emphasis.

Goals

As a result of this program, the student will:

• Master the Hebrew language.
• Develop competency in Hebrew exegesis.
• Incorporate an understanding of Rabbinic thought and Old Testament Law in course studies and discipleship.
• Employ knowledge of Jewish culture and values effectively in diverse ministry situations.
• Develop skills of ministry specifically appropriate for the Jewish community, including the following proficiencies:
• Students will be skilled in using Jewish liturgy in Messianic worship and practice (holidays, funerals, marriages, rites of passage, and music).
• Students will speak and write with understanding about Jewish backgrounds of the Christian faith.
• Students will be able to prepare biblical messages appropriate for the Messianic Jewish community.
• Students will provide biblical pastoral counsel for the unique needs of the Messianic Jewish community.
• As a result of personal experience, students will be able to describe the significance of modern Israel in the Jewish community.

The program director is Gregory Hagg who in addition to serving as professor of Bible Exposition at Talbot, he also serves as Vice President for Academic Advancement with Chosen People Ministries, an evangelical outreach to Jewish people with headquarters in New York.

If these people were, in fact, Jewish converts to Christianity, then I suppose it would make a modicum of sense. The truth of the matter is that they are Evangelicals, looking for an even more life-encompassing way of being Christian. The weekend was fine, for the most part. I took a long run before the dinner and then took a bath while they were doing their little wannabe ceremony. The only thing that bothered me is that I had told my kids that their participation was optional, only to find out that my mother in law (who also eats this stuff up) arm-twisted my 17 year old daughter into participating. Not cool at all, and, I might add, completely ineffective--she resented it. As the prophet said, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." Unfortunately, that's one of the least-heeded commandments in the history of faith.

[Strangelove]

Once a Christian begins to look into the Jewish religion, he (or she) may discover, first, that the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Christ are two entirely different concepts with almost nothing in common (as I have detailed elsewhere, and more than once). Then, he may discover the refreshing absence of dogmatism in the Jewish religion, and the equally refreshing freedom of thought and openness to debate and argument -- indeed, the fact that rational debate, argument and discussion are integral to a deeper understanding of the Jewish religion and always have been. He may eventually decide that he prefers Judaism to Christianity and become a "Noachite" -- that is, a Gentile who worships the God of Israel, an option that few know even exists; or he may eventually go for full conversion. I didn't take the "Messianic Synagogue" route myself, but more than a few Jewish converts have.

So are you a Jew or are you a "Noachite"?

[Wootah]

1. Are Christians who adopt Jewish ritual without embracing Judaism or while actively attempting to win converts from it desecrating those rituals?

Clarity is harder with Judaism because I still think we believe in the same God (that may be wishful thinking).

There is no way I would participate in a ritual to another god. It would signify that potentially I was not faithful to God and worse it might signify to followers of the other god that I agree with their faith. I think as long as my participation was out of social consideration then possibly I could participate in a Sunday lunch.

Since Jesus 'did away with' rituals I find it hard to fathom (other than that we are slaves to sin so not that hard to fathom) why Christians would deliberately use a custom or ritual from another religion. I would be interested to know why they participated in the festival: For fun or for religious reasons or for outreach?

http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm
(a great site I like to recommend about Judaism )
seems to make me feel we are talking about a Sunday roast here anyway.

[Burninglight]

Paul said he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but he is a Jew that is one inwardly. I think he means you can only be a true Jew if you are hid in Christ.

[Goat]

Paul said he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but he is a Jew that is one inwardly. I think he means you can only be a true Jew if you are hid in Christ.

Or, he could just be doing total rhetoric that has no actual meaning except for propaganda purposes. The letters of Paul does not show a very good understanding of what it means to be Jewish.

[Burninglight]

Paul said he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but he is a Jew that is one inwardly. I think he means you can only be a true Jew if you are hid in Christ.

Or, he could just be doing total rhetoric that has no actual meaning except for propaganda purposes. The letters of Paul does not show a very good understanding of what it means to be Jewish.

Do you believe that? I think he meant it doesn't matter what race or nationality you are. What matters is what is in your heart or the heart of man. For God looks at the heart

[Goat]

Paul said he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, but he is a Jew that is one inwardly. I think he means you can only be a true Jew if you are hid in Christ.

Or, he could just be doing total rhetoric that has no actual meaning except for propaganda purposes. The letters of Paul does not show a very good understanding of what it means to be Jewish.

Do you believe that? I think he meant it doesn't matter what race or nationality you are. What matters is what is in your heart or the heart of man. For God looks at the heart

Is that what he meant?? No.. I don't think that is what Paul meant.. I think he meant that as a propaganda tool to try to lure Gentiles into Judaism lite,

[bluethread]

It appears to me that what is being refered to on this thread is the evangelical or pentecostal forms of messianics. I must admit that these are the most common and many hold to replacement theology, ie "the church" has replaced Israel. I and those I meet with recognize that it is a sin to call oneself a jew if one can not verify that one is a hereditary jew. In fact, we generally do not refer to ourselves a smessianic because of these misunderstandings. Regarding how we treat jews who do not recognize Yeshua as HaMeshiach, we merely discuss the Scriptures with them, respecting their viewpoint, and encourage them to be as biblically orthodox as possible. We are much more concerned about countering the rise of reform and now reconstructionist judaism than "converting" anybody.