Infinite time?

[charris]

It seems to me possible that there is an infinite time, specifically that of the past. All that would be required is for a previous event or cause (depending on you interpretation of QM).

I mentioned this, and was met with the objection, "If the past was infinite, then it would have taken an infinite amount of time to get here." I personally think this objection is pointless, so maybe if you think this is the case you could expound upon it. If you disagree, then if you could post your reasons as well I would appreciate it.

Also, if you disagree because of other reasons, I would like to hear them.

[TheJackelantern]

To make this simple, infinite time concept is accurate. However, Time is simply the inertia of information / energy. IF you want to understand what "No-time" is in physics, it would be a static state of suspended animation. A state where there is no inertia of information or energy. Time still progresses from one instant to the next, but if there is no inertia their could be no universe with stars, planets, people, or even conscious states.. Time will always be infinite but it's subject to what you are talking about.

[TheJackelantern]

The biggest problem I see with the idea of an infinite past is if the past is infinite, how did we manage to get to this point in time?

It's a good question, but this is where our capacity to understand infinite has its limits. We can only really understand it by understanding why it can't be finite. I suppose the easiest way to understand this is if you understand why existence infinitely exists in terms of time. Well, we can put that into simplistic understanding by knowing that non-existence can not literally exist as an existing person, place, object, substance, time-frame, or thing. Hence, existence must have always existed simply because it's literally impossible for non-existence to literally be an existent thing... So as hard as it is to fathom an infinite past, it's obvious that time must be infinite.. It's the same reason why volume and capacity are always considered infinite in regards to over all existence. Hence a zero capacity can never literally actually exist. So for you to exist, the container that contains your existence must be infinite since you can not be contained in a box to which has no capacity to contain or support your existence... There can be no boundaries to capacity or volume since that would require a zero capacity, or literal nothing to literally exist. And that is impossible

[arian]

The biggest problem I see with the idea of an infinite past is if the past is infinite, how did we manage to get to this point in time?

It's a good question, but this is where our capacity to understand infinite has its limits. We can only really understand it by understanding why it can't be finite. I suppose the easiest way to understand this is if you understand why existence infinitely exists in terms of time. Well, we can put that into simplistic understanding by knowing that non-existence can not literally exist as an existing person, place, object, substance, time-frame, or thing. Hence, existence must have always existed simply because it's literally impossible for non-existence to literally be an existent thing... So as hard as it is to fathom an infinite past, it's obvious that time must be infinite.. It's the same reason why volume and capacity are always considered infinite in regards to over all existence. Hence a zero capacity can never literally actually exist. So for you to exist, the container that contains your existence must be infinite since you can not be contained in a box to which has no capacity to contain or support your existence... There can be no boundaries to capacity or volume since that would require a zero capacity, or literal nothing to literally exist. And that is impossible

Woa there friend, ... I just sent you a post where you said my problem starts with me thinking there is something 'outside the BOX'

And here, you just said this: "So for you to exist, the container that contains your existence must be infinite since you can not be contained in a box to which has no capacity to contain or support your existence

and you clear that up with:

... There can be no boundaries to capacity or volume since that would require a zero capacity, or literal nothing to literally exist. And that is impossible."

So I ask again: "What was the pin-sized universe at the moment of the BB, 13.75 billion years later, and NOW IN?"

[TheJackelantern]

So I ask again: "What was the pin-sized universe at the moment of the BB, 13.75 billion years later, and NOW IN?"

That's a very good question! So I hope I can shed some light on that here for you my friend

Simple Answer:

In a volume of energy.. The Universe came from that which it is made of. And big bangs could be, and I am quoting someone else here, "as common as lightning out to sea".

Detailed answer:

There is two definition of the Universe. One being the observable universe to which came from the Big Bang, and the overall universe to which you can swap out for the term Existence, or reality, or the infinite sum total of everything. I will point that out below here, but let's first cover the basics of what you need to know.. So I hope you are up for some reading:

I posted this at the following link so you know I'm not just copy pasting from someone else:

http://grisham.newsvine.com/_news/2011/ ... #c59783711


0. Understanding The Standard Model: Video
1. Why There Is Infinite Ground State Energy: Link
2. Scale Of The Universe: Flash Presentation
3. Orders Of Magnitude On The Energy Scale: Link
4. Zero-point Energy: Link
5. Ground state energy: Link
6. Vacuum energy: Link
7. Infinite Energy equation


Abstract:

1)

Zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may have; it is the energy of its ground state. All quantum mechanical systems undergo fluctuations even in their ground state and have an associated zero-point energy, a consequence of their wave-like interaction.

Because of the uncertainty principle, every physical system (even at absolute zero temperature) has a zero-point energy that is greater than the minimum of its potential well

2)

In quantum field theory, the vacuum state (also called the vacuum) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. Zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of an individual quantized field.

Yes it's true that we don't fully understand how quantum physics works in terms of functionality or how energy works entirely from the quantum level and up. But we surely know that nothing can't actually literally exist. What you perceive to be nothing is actually a state of energy that we don't fully understand the properties of. That's what we aim to discover with particle collisions at CERN. We know the inertia of energy is the inertia of information. We know the expansion of space time is simply energy expanding like a bubble. Yes space itself seems to have inertia and cant' actually be said not to be moving, or osculating ect. We know that energy is the capacity of volume and information. We know energy is the carrying capacity of information. We know energy is the physical system.

The Universe is energy, and so is everything in it. The Universe came from what it's made of, and can only come from what it's made of. The energy of the vacuum is often suspected to be the dark energy. The expansion is suspect to also be related to the Casimir Effect at large scales. Hence Vacuum energy has density and pressure:

The mass density or density of a material is defined as its mass per unit volume. The symbol most often used for density is � (the Greek letter rho). In some cases (for instance, in the United States oil and gas industry), density is also defined as its weight per unit volume;[1] although, this quantity is more properly called specific weight.

So...., the density value of the vacuum is that of empty space. Thus the vacuum In terms of mass density, its absolute value is less than 10-26 kilograms per cubic meter. In terms of energy density, this is about 10-9 joules per cubic meter. If you go by more recent measurements by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and the many other experiments, they converge on a positive cosmological constant, equal to roughly 7 × 10-27 kilograms per cubic meter. This corresponds to a positive energy density of about 6 × 10-10 joules per cubic meter. And since there can never actually exist a literal 0 energy state, or nothing in the literal context, there will always be an infinite volume of energy. A state as close as you can get to nothing without actually being nothing.

Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space even when the space is devoid of matter (free space). And here is some further information on the vacuum:

A vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure.[1] The word comes from the Latin term for "empty". A perfect vacuum would be one with no particles in it at all, which is impossible to achieve in practice. Physicists often discuss ideal test results that would occur in a perfect vacuum, which they simply call "vacuum" or "free space", and use the term partial vacuum to refer to real vacuum. The Latin term in vacuo is also used to describe an object as being in what would otherwise be a vacuum.

The quality of a vacuum refers to how closely it approaches a perfect vacuum. Other things equal, lower gas pressure means higher-quality vacuum. For example, a typical vacuum cleaner produces enough suction to reduce air pressure by around 20%.[2] Much higher-quality vacuums are possible. Ultra-high vacuum chambers, common in chemistry, physics, and engineering, operate below one trillionth (10−12) of atmospheric pressure (100 nPa), and can reach around 100 particles/cm3.[3] Outer space is an even higher-quality vacuum, with the equivalent of just a few hydrogen atoms per cubic meter on average.[4]

In modern Particle Physics, the vacuum is considered as the ground state of matter. The sate in which matter we come to know of comes from. It's the ground state of the physical system.

And so you know, I am referring to both definitions of the Universe here. The observable, and the Unobservable. So lets review those here:

In Big Bang cosmology, the observable universe consists of the galaxies and other matter that we can in principle observe from Earth in the present day, because light (or other signals) from those objects has had time to reach us since the beginning of the cosmological expansion. Assuming the universe is isotropic, the distance to the edge of the observable universe is roughly the same in every direction—that is, the observable universe is a spherical volume (a ball) centered on the observer, regardless of the shape of the universe as a whole. Every location in the universe has its own observable universe which may or may not overlap with the one centered on the Earth.

The word observable used in this sense does not depend on whether modern technology actually permits detection of radiation from an object in this region (or indeed on whether there is any radiation to detect). It simply indicates that it is possible in principle for light or other signals from the object to reach an observer on Earth. In practice, we can see light only from as far back as the time of photon decoupling in the recombination epoch

Now Universe in terms of existence itself:

The universe is commonly defined as the totality of everything that exists,[1] including all space, time, matter, energy, planets, stars, galaxies, intergalactic space,[2][3]and beyond.

So what do we learn from this? We learn there can be no phenomenon or existence without material physicality simply because nothing can not literally be an existing person, place, object, substance, or thing. Claiming things made of nothing exist is nonsensical and self-collapsing, and it's equal to saying your non-existent GOD magically exists. But that's the mind trick religion likes to use. For something to exist, it must have the capacity to exist, and can not be made of nothing. So we can reference the following to get a better understanding of capacity and volume:

Abstract:

Infinite-dimensional spaces are widely used in geometry and topology, particularly as classifying spaces, notably Eilenberg−MacLane spaces. Common examples are the infinite-dimensional complex projective spaceK(Z,2) and the infinite-dimensional real projective space K(Z/2Z,1).

If our universe is finite, it can not exist in a box, container, or volume with a capacity of zero or less. Whatever volume it's in, will be infinite, or it could also be in another finite volume within an overall infinite volume (existence as a whole/ The Universe). Thus volume in general, and capacity in general are always considered infinite. If it weren't, you couldn't be here.

Example:

You have a brick, just a common brick. This brick as a physical 3D object can not be contained in a volume less than it's own. Should this volume that contains this brick be finite, itself is like the brick to where it also can not be contained in a volume to which is less than it's own..Volume would be subject to infinite ingress in order to have capacity to contain and sustain existence. What this means is that in order for the brick, or the volume to which contains the brick to exist, Capacity and volume must be infinite. And what most people don't get is that the brick itself is literally apart of the volume to which it exists in. As in what makes up the volume also makes up the object within the volume. And this is the very energy to which is the capacity of both the volume and the brick itself.

Thus for anything to be existent in existence, it must have the capacity to exist. Everything existent, including us, are like the brick in the above example.

Abstract 2:

Understanding Capacity and Volume:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_utilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume

So when we try to understand infinity in these terms of capacity, volume, and the energy of, we don't do it by trying to imagine the size, or amount of. We understand it by understanding why there are no boundaries to capacity, and volume, or why there can never be literally zero temperature in thermodynamics... The boundaries, should they be argued for, could only be represented as literal nothing in the most literal context possible. So why are these boundaries impossible to exist? It's actually quite simple:

1) Literal nothing can not be a person, place, substance, or thing. It can not literally ever exist..

2) Nothing can not also contain anything.. Hence, our universe can not be contained within a noting container, or box if you will. Existence can not exist within nothing.. Nothing has no value, no capacity, or volume. It's what can be said as utter irrelevance, or non-existent.

So that means there can never exist literally zero information, energy, volume, or capacity. Here it is likely that no phenomenon could exist without material physicality. Immateriality is thus just a logical fallacy. :/

So to summarize your question with an answer:

Yes our universe could have come from a small volume, but that volume is finite compared the overall volume of existence itself. Our Universe is also not actually a closed system btw. It's measured to be flat, and that is a type open system. This which you can find here:

http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html

[arian]

So I ask again: "What was the pin-sized universe at the moment of the BB, 13.75 billion years later, and NOW IN?"

That's a very good question! So I hope I can shed some light on that here for you my friend

Simple Answer:

In a volume of energy.. The Universe came from that which it is made of. And big bangs could be, and I am quoting someone else here, "as common as lightning out to sea".

Got it, big-bangs are as common as lightnings, ... and may I ask in what universe were all these big-bangs observed? I understand a big-bang here and a big bang there, but in what universe, or at least what galaxy allowed, or gave the scientists the best perspective to witness this?

Detailed answer:

There is two definition of the Universe. One being the observable universe to which came from the Big Bang, and the overall universe to which you can swap out for the term Existence, or reality, or the infinite sum total of everything. I will point that out below here, but let's first cover the basics of what you need to know.. So I hope you are up for some reading:

I posted this at the following link so you know I'm not just copy pasting from someone else:

http://grisham.newsvine.com/_news/2011/ ... #c59783711

0. Understanding The Standard Model: Video
1. Why There Is Infinite Ground State Energy: Link
2. Scale Of The Universe: Flash Presentation
3. Orders Of Magnitude On The Energy Scale: Link
4. Zero-point Energy: Link
5. Ground state energy: Link
6. Vacuum energy: Link
7. Infinite Energy equation

I understand, ... it's about physics/energy. There is Zero-point energy, Ground state energy, Vacuum energy and so on, all in this physical universe, thank you. Now how did it get here is our debate, .. right? But I guess if scientists can observe big-bangs happening as common as lightnings, they must have by now a satellite 'outside' our universe filming this, or some NASA artist drawing these down as they happen.

I am not talking about your 'observable universe bubble' within the 'real universe bath tub', ... I am asking where the 'pin-sized universe' at the 'moment' of its expansion, that Event Horizon, that Planck Epoch, that Gravitational singularity or whatever you want to call it happened IN?

Are you insinuating that the 'pre-big bang pin-sized universe' was about to 'expand in' PURE ENERGY? And that within this 'Pure Energy' big bangs are as common as lightning on water?

The links you gave me all talk about our obvious physical universe and the scientific opinions on how it operates. I am a simple man, I don't need to know every nut and bolt, and how they hold my car together to enjoy driving it. I trust the designers and accept that they created these cars to get me from here to there, so I am content. It is way above my head to understand everything about my car, but not all men are created alike. Some people want to know everything that makes that car tick, what country was it built in, and so on.

I am satisfied with what our Creator has done with this universe and us humans, it is only when some smart, God-hating scientists try to convince me that they know where it came from, and for what, that troubles me.
If the universe had a start, ... a beginning, ... then it came from a place that spacetime already existed.

If it came from 'nothing', that is, where time and space did not exist outside our universe, then I say that is not a theory built on science or quantum mechanics. Now in quantum physics, they do try to re-define nothing as a 'little of something', but in my Believers mind, as a simple fisherman, and according to my experiment on nothing, nothing IS nothing. Matter of fact, nothing is so powerful that even a pin-sized nothing could suck up this universe in far less time then the few seconds it took your big bang to occur.

Abstract:

1)

Zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may have; it is the energy of its ground state. All quantum mechanical systems undergo fluctuations even in their ground state and have an associated zero-point energy, a consequence of their wave-like interaction.

Because of the uncertainty principle, every physical system (even at absolute zero temperature) has a zero-point energy that is greater than the minimum of its potential well

2)

In quantum field theory, the vacuum state (also called the vacuum) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. Zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of an individual quantized field.

Again, scientific observations of our physical universe, whether through quantum field theory or any other theory will not convince me that our Creator God does not exist, but quite the opposite. I am at awe at His wonderful handiwork. I cannot wait to get out of this limited mind/body and be changed to that immortal body to talk with our Lord, and Creator as to how He made all this?

Yes it's true that we don't fully understand how quantum physics works in terms of functionality or how energy works entirely from the quantum level and up. But we surely know that nothing can't actually literally exist.

I have an anouncment to make, ... I have done a simple experiment where I can PROVE that 'nothing' DOES exist. My limited education (and the lack of information out there regarding the 'nothing'), hindered me from explaining what I have found.
I have mistakenly said that I can prove that 'nothing' does NOT exist, when in fact my simple experiment shows that it DOES exists. Yes, I can prove that 'Nothing' does in fact (literally) exist.

What you perceive to be nothing is actually a state of energy that we don't fully understand the properties of.

As long as you see 'properties' you are on the wrong track. That is like a little 'white lie', it's almost 'nothing'. If I told you 1+1=2.000000000000001, would you say that's accurate? The same way 'nothing' has to be defined in its absoluteness. We cannot add or take away from 'nothing', and if you're looking at its 'properties', it is NOT nothing.

That's what we aim to discover with particle collisions at CERN.

So what, ... when you collide some particle and don't get any reading from all the instruments and sensors, you yell; "Eureka, .. ladies and gentlemen, we have nothing!" ??? My little science project is much more accurate, and it can be tested by anyone.

Tell me, have they considered building a 'thought collider' yet? I would love to see what 'thoughts' are made of, ... don't you?

I mean what could be more important than our thoughts? We can imagine, create, communicate, feel pain and get offended, make jokes and tell stories that make another cry. We can build faith in ourselves and others, and also destroy the faith in others, and so much more with such little physical effort, and yet it is the last to be studied, and so little goes IN the study of the mind.

What I find funny is that they took Einsteins brain out so they could study it when the technology becomes available. Now this shows the minds of un-believing science, so physical.

We know the inertia of energy is the inertia of information. We know the expansion of space time is simply energy expanding like a bubble. Yes space itself seems to have inertia and cant' actually be said not to be moving, or osculating ect. We know that energy is the capacity of volume and information. We know energy is the carrying capacity of information. We know energy is the physical system.

So did the universe at your ... gravitational singularity about to explode in 'energy'? According to your above explanation,; 'energy is the physical system', so either you're avoiding the subject, or you cannot imagine that which I am asking?

Again, ... 'did your pin-sized, pre-big bang universe reside in energy, or in nothing?'

The Universe is energy, and so is everything in it.

Our Creator is NOT IN the Universe, but the universe is IN our Creator God. Our Creator is Spirit, and that is as pure and as powerful of energy there is. You almost said it above, that the universe is in energy, but then you wondered off and ended talking about the inside of the universe.

Why not do as you said in that previous post that I responded to; 'and think outside the box'?

The Universe came from what it's made of, and can only come from what it's made of. The energy of the vacuum is often suspected to be the dark energy. The expansion is suspect to also be related to the Casimir Effect at large scales. Hence Vacuum energy has density and pressure:

Again, ... you are explaining to me the INSIDE of the universe, this physical realm. I KNOW the inside of this universe, I am a part of it. I know about the semi-vacuum of space, I heard of 'dark mater/energy', these are all assumptions and guesses about the make up of our universe, our space that our planet spins around in. I am asking what is on the OUTSIDE of our expanding universe?

You do believe this universe is expanding, ... right? So can anything expand in 'nothing'?

Do you now see the lie of this theory?

"The universe is expanding" - or retracting, or is flat, or it cancels itself out by the positive and negative energy, ... in which case we don't really exist?

"The universe is the sum total of all existence" - unless of course it resides and is expanding in pure energy?

"The universe MIGHT BE infinite, ... we really don't know?" - or it could be finite, it depends how the scientist that is working on the theory understands 'time'?

The mass density or density of a material is defined as its mass per unit volume. The symbol most often used for density is � (the Greek letter rho). In some cases (for instance, in the United States oil and gas industry), density is also defined as its weight per unit volume;[1] although, this quantity is more properly called specific weight.

So...., the density value of the vacuum is that of empty space. Thus the vacuum In terms of mass density, its absolute value is less than 10-26 kilograms per cubic meter. In terms of energy density, this is about 10-9 joules per cubic meter. If you go by more recent measurements by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and the many other experiments, they converge on a positive cosmological constant, equal to roughly 7 × 10-27 kilograms per cubic meter. This corresponds to a positive energy density of about 6 × 10-10 joules per cubic meter. And since there can never actually exist a literal 0 energy state, or nothing in the literal context, there will always be an infinite volume of energy. A state as close as you can get to nothing without actually being nothing.

Yes I know these things, even space is 'something' because our planet (especially our o-zone protected fragile atmosphere) would be sucked into absolute-nothing. The entire universe could be sucked into oblivion by as small as a pin-sized absolute-nothing.

Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space even when the space is devoid of matter (free space). And here is some further information on the vacuum:

A vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure.[1] The word comes from the Latin term for "empty". A perfect vacuum would be one with no particles in it at all, which is impossible to achieve in practice. Physicists often discuss ideal test results that would occur in a perfect vacuum, which they simply call "vacuum" or "free space", and use the term partial vacuum to refer to real vacuum. The Latin term in vacuo is also used to describe an object as being in what would otherwise be a vacuum.

The quality of a vacuum refers to how closely it approaches a perfect vacuum. Other things equal, lower gas pressure means higher-quality vacuum. For example, a typical vacuum cleaner produces enough suction to reduce air pressure by around 20%.[2] Much higher-quality vacuums are possible. Ultra-high vacuum chambers, common in chemistry, physics, and engineering, operate below one trillionth (10−12) of atmospheric pressure (100 nPa), and can reach around 100 particles/cm3.[3] Outer space is an even higher-quality vacuum, with the equivalent of just a few hydrogen atoms per cubic meter on average.[4]

In modern Particle Physics, the vacuum is considered as the ground state of matter. The sate in which matter we come to know of comes from. It's the ground state of the physical system.

Yes, ... i understand. But as I have been saying, I am not talking about the INSIDE of the Universe, I am a part of this universe, and I am content with what I see and understand. It is your BB theory that troubles me my friend, for it claims to know a whole lot more than what they actually know. Even if man dissected everything in this universe, they would continue to find smaller and smaller things that the bigger ones are made of, and still end up right where they started, IN their Creator who not only created, but ordained the laws of physics.

INFINITY goes both ways, towards the BIG AND the small, ... the micros.

Look at a fertilized human egg, and how the cells multiply. Let's say the fertilized egg is 'everything that is', and nothing outside of it, just as your tiny pin sized universe at the Planck Epoch.
The cells can only multiply in the egg if its outside environment is just right. Without nutrients from the outside, it quickly dies. So tell me, how does your tiny universe evolve from that gravitational singularity, into the complex and eternal and infinite universe we have today without some form of nutrient/energy directing all them gasses and gravity it contains, through the dark ages to create worlds and suns?

Yes, there is gravity, but do you believe that gravity (or whatever smaller energy/anti energy/dark matter/quark they can come up with) simply expanded in nothing (no God/Energy/Ruler/Lawgiver) and assembled itself? Is this what observing and understanding the LAWS of PHYSICS has taught you?

Science can observe physics because of its LAWS, otherwise we would not be here. Who told our gravity to act a certain way? And if gravity acts this certain predictable way, why would it act any different over time? Did 'time' organize the universe into what we have today?

Are our thoughts created by time and some atoms colliding with each other creating energy which in turn creates the delusion that we perceive as 'reason'?

Reading the evolution of the BB theory, ... it sure seems like it.

And so you know, I am referring to both definitions of the Universe here. The observable, and the Unobservable. So lets review those here:

In Big Bang cosmology, the observable universe consists of the galaxies and other matter that we can in principle observe from Earth in the present day, because light (or other signals) from those objects has had time to reach us since the beginning of the cosmological expansion. Assuming the universe is isotropic, the distance to the edge of the observable universe is roughly the same in every direction—that is, the observable universe is a spherical volume (a ball) centered on the observer, regardless of the shape of the universe as a whole. Every location in the universe has its own observable universe which may or may not overlap with the one centered on the Earth.

The word observable used in this sense does not depend on whether modern technology actually permits detection of radiation from an object in this region (or indeed on whether there is any radiation to detect). It simply indicates that it is possible in principle for light or other signals from the object to reach an observer on Earth. In practice, we can see light only from as far back as the time of photon decoupling in the recombination epoch

Yes I understand, the where it came from, how big, is it expanding or retracting, how it formed itself and so on are as colorful as the Hindu religion, if not more. Childrens stories have more meaning to them than these assumptions. How these become actual 'theories' is beyond me? Red-shift... oh man???

Now Universe in terms of existence itself:

The universe is commonly defined as the totality of everything that exists,[1] including all space, time, matter, energy, planets, stars, galaxies, intergalactic space,[2][3]and beyond.

This is exactly why we look for the Creator. You through your stories which includes a lot of lies mixed with truths, and my observing these theories with what God has revealed to me through my asking Him.

So what do we learn from this? We learn there can be no phenomenon or existence without material physicality simply because nothing can not literally be an existing person, place, object, substance, or thing.

But look my dear friend, .. above you have just admitted that we cannot literally see the stars claimed 93/2=46.5 billion light years away in our 'observable universe', but we can figure it out in our heads (I thank you for your honesty). We can 'imagine' things and 'believe' in them until the answer comes, even if it's after we die, ... am I right?

You say; "there can be no phenomenon or existence without material physicality" so what is our debates here,.. nothing? Is the statement regarding the 'size of the observable universe' nothing? Where did the numbers come from, ... nothing? We deal with 'nothing' all the time, especially atheistic science.

Look at all the NASA pictures created by artists of quasars, distant galaxies, stars, and black-holes? Even the depiction of the so-called 'observable universe' that is not really observable is painted as scientists imagine it, to the best of their calculations, right? Now do they say; "This is how we THINK it might look like?", ... no, not unless you look deeper into it. The general public thinks those are actual photos, that THAT IS how our universe really looks like.

Our mind is the most realistic and powerful (I don't know what to call it) realm, I guess, that we possess. A man is considered dead when his mind no longer functions, .. right? Yet his body could still be alive for years.

This is why God chose our MINDS to reside in, He created us, and He knows what is the most REAL about us, and that is where He communicates with us, where He chose to reside in us. So do scientist, they live from and in their minds, in their imaginations which they 'believe in' religiously.

Only problem is, that so does the Devil. We have to choose by research and observation of the universe around us, the way people act, what they believe in ... everything must be considered. You cannot go by looks/books alone (the physical realm) but must look further. You accept the things scientists tell you, why stop there?
Why believe in one book (science) and not another (the Bible)? Have you tested every theory you believe in, yourself? Have you really tested the Bibles claims to the real world? I have. I believe to a point where GOD exists more to me than this physical universe, more than my very existence.

As I mentioned above, .. NOTHING (absolute void, vacuum, empty) DOES exist, and I have proof.

Claiming things made of nothing exist is nonsensical and self-collapsing, and it's equal to saying your non-existent GOD magically exists. But that's the mind trick religion likes to use. For something to exist, it must have the capacity to exist, and can not be made of nothing.

Again, ... where did the pin-sized universe reside in as it was ready to blow, or expand? Where is it 'EXPANDING IN NOW?'

The 'Brick' story is a mix of physical observable truth, mixed with deception to hopefully distract the public from asking the obvious, 'where does our universe reside in?'
Your version of science is the same as my old Christian Churches teachings. They took the Bible and re-interpreted it to allow their version of god and gods to exist, and you (evolutionary science) took the obvious perfect universe and re-interpret it to allow your version of god (whatever one believes in is ones god) to exist.
I mean it is funny how science denies the existence of 'nothing', yet with the same breath tell me my GOD is nothing!? To me, that is NOT science. The greatest scientists worked almost every hypothesis, and created every theory out in their heads (the nothing). They used small objects like telescopes and chalk, and pens to record their 'ideas', their 'beliefs'. all this is no different than 'believing in GOD'.

Indoctrination is a big tool used by Satan, I see it both in science AND religion, especially in the Christian religions.

So we can reference the following to get a better understanding of capacity and volume:
Abstract:

Infinite-dimensional spaces are widely used in geometry and topology, particularly as classifying spaces, notably Eilenberg−MacLane spaces. Common examples are the infinite-dimensional complex projective spaceK(Z,2) and the infinite-dimensional real projective space K(Z/2Z,1).

If our universe is finite, it can not exist in a box, container, or volume with a capacity of zero or less. Whatever volume it's in, will be infinite, or it could also be in another finite volume within an overall infinite volume (existence as a whole/ The Universe). Thus volume in general, and capacity in general are always considered infinite. If it weren't, you couldn't be here.

Wait, ... either I don't understand what you're saying, .. or YOU don't understand what you're saying. You said: "Thus volume in general, and capacity in general are always considered infinite"

VOLUME - physics
space inside an object: the size of a three-dimensional space enclosed within or occupied by an object.
Volume is measured in cubic units.
(Microsoft® Encarta®)

Because of the lack of understanding of the evolutionary scientists, they make up excuses and fairy tales. Just like their denial of the real meaning of 'nothing' (they put a little 'something' in there to help them cope with it) your understanding of 'infinite' is just as flawed.

NOTHING exists and can be shown in many ways.
1. Let's say I have $100.00 in small bills, including coins in my pocket, and you come and ask me for a dollar. I say "sorry, but I have no money" and don't give you anything, not even a penny. How much money did I give you?
I gave you "NOTHING" as far as money goes. It is a 'real nothing'.
Now if I gave you a penny, and your wife asked you; "how much money did Odon give you?" you could answer 'nothing' because the penny will not help you out any, it is so miniscule, ... but that would be 'a false nothing' on your part.

2. I take a large glass and fill it with water to the top, put a piece of paper over it and flip it upside down. The water remains in the glass, why? Because it is waiting for 'something' to replace the 'nothing' that's holding it there in the glass. Gravity on the water will not pull it out, nor all the weight of the whole world could not pull it out of there, for nothing is very powerful, it will not evolve to anything other than 'nothing', so the water remains.

Nothing is real, it cannot be altered, nor will it become even a tiny something, and my experiment proves that. It is your definition of nothing that is in error. Science keep adding at least 'something' to 'nothing' for them to comprehend it.

INFINITY
4. mathematics
concept of being always unlimited: the concept of being unlimited by always being larger than any imposed value or boundary. For some purposes this may be considered as being the same as one divided by zero.
(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library)

Infinite is a concept of being always unlimited. IF your big-bang universe is expanding, then it is NOT 'infinite'. Your stories of the observable universe within an unlimited universe is trickery. If you have a 2X4X6" brick and you identify a 2"X2"X2" part of it does not make it ANOTHER brick, it is still the same brick.

If you break that brick to tiny pieces, and then you pick up a grain of the brick, it is still a brick, but NOT the whole brick. In the same way, your version of a pin sized universe is NOT the 'whole universe' squeezed down to that small size.

What if I told you that you are not really a human being, but only one tiny cell? I would be lying, for you are made up of about what, ... 13 trillion cells that created all your hair, skin, bones, organs and so on.

NOTHING is nothing and INFINITE is infinite, we cannot add or take away from either one. Just as a brick is NOT just ONE grain of sand, infinite cannot get bigger or smaller, it IS infinite. Evolutionists redefine the meanings to hopefully justify the lies of their theories like the BB and evolution (same lies).

Example:

You have a brick, just a common brick. This brick as a physical 3D object can not be contained in a volume less than it's own. Should this volume that contains this brick be finite, itself is like the brick to where it also can not be contained in a volume to which is less than it's own..Volume would be subject to infinite ingress in order to have capacity to contain and sustain existence. What this means is that in order for the brick, or the volume to which contains the brick to exist, Capacity and volume must be infinite. And what most people don't get is that the brick itself is literally apart of the volume to which it exists in. As in what makes up the volume also makes up the object within the volume. And this is the very energy to which is the capacity of both the volume and the brick itself.

Thus for anything to be existent in existence, it must have the capacity to exist. Everything existent, including us, are like the brick in the above example.[/quote]

I understand, there has to be space for volume to exist, yet you say the universe was as tiny as a pinhead at the moment of the big bang!

What 'space' did 'space and time' (the pre-big bang universe) exist in, since SPACE is claimed to have come about by the big bang, that is within this universe

I understand the 'space' within the brick, and the 'space' the brick takes up in, but how does that explain where the universe which is the 'birth of spacetime' takes up SPACE IN, especially when you keep saying that the universe is all there is!?

How can SPACE expand? The brick is within the universe, and it has plenty of space, but where is 'space' expanding IN?

Abstract 2:

Understanding Capacity and Volume:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_utilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume

So when we try to understand infinity in these terms of capacity, volume, and the energy of, we don't do it by trying to imagine the size, or amount of. We understand it by understanding why there are no boundaries to capacity, and volume, or why there can never be literally zero temperature in thermodynamics... The boundaries, should they be argued for, could only be represented as literal nothing in the most literal context possible. So why are these boundaries impossible to exist? It's actually quite simple:

1) Literal nothing can not be a person, place, substance, or thing. It can not literally ever exist..

2) Nothing can not also contain anything.. Hence, our universe can not be contained within a nothing container, or box if you will. Existence can not exist within nothing.. Nothing has no value, no capacity, or volume. It's what can be said as utter irrelevance, or non-existent.

I have learned that NOTHING CAN EXIST, just as our 'Real Universe' can exist, meaning we can't see it, yet we 'know' and we 'believe' it's there.

I can imagine 'nothing', it is the opposite of 'everything'. I can even demonstrate 'nothing' through an experiment, and it is really and truly there.

For months I was waiting for 'nothing' to appear, and zilch, ... nada, ... nothing. Then a light went off in my head, ... 'THERE IT IS! It has always been there, between the water and my turned upside down glass covered by a piece of thin paper. The

It is you who says the UNIVERSE is expanding, which means 'SPACE' is EXPANDING and taking up more SPACE in nothing which you continuously deny exists!??

Define the REAL universe by a size, ... and the definition is 'INFINITE', right? Yet it is you (when I say 'you' I mean evolutionary science) that says it's 'EXPANDING'!?

Than to confuse yourselves even more, you say it had a size, and the size as small as a pinhead of all things!? So either a pinhead size or infinitely big, the universe, the ENTIRE Universe, the birth place of SPACE has been for the past 13.5 billion years expanding into WHAT, ... SPACE? Does TIME exist in this SPACE our Universe (that is all there is) is expanding in?

"The pin-sized universe at its Plank Epoch is IN A POINT IN SPACE where within the tiny universe time and space are very distorted" (... I'd say!) I don't care if its a hypothetical point in space, this is about science, and I want to know 'what is the space', or the 'point in space' the tiny universe is about to expand in?

So that means there can never exist literally zero information, energy, volume, or capacity. Here it is likely that no phenomenon could exist without material physicality. Immateriality is thus just a logical fallacy. :/

Yes, 'literally zero information, energy, volume, or capacity' can and does exist my friend, it is all defined in nothing. Only in "nothing" is there literally zero information, energy, volume, or capacity and I can prove it.

So to summarize your question with an answer:

Yes our universe could have come from a small volume, but that volume is finite compared the overall volume of existence itself. Our Universe is also not actually a closed system btw. It's measured to be flat, and that is a type open system. This which you can find here:

http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html

Is this "small volume" within the tiny pin-sized pre-big bang universe, or on the outside of it?

Thank you my dear friend for all the info you gave me to look at, some are quite long, .. so I will need time to look into it further.

I pray I did not offend you, I am only debating what I believe, just as you are. I hope we both become sharper and wiser by it. I really wish you would read and study up on the Bible though, ... you could understand my views, my perspectives a little better I believe.

I thank you again

Odon

[TheJackelantern]

Got it, big-bangs are as common as lightnings, ...

This is not what it stated. They could be as common as lightning out to sea and you wouldn't even know it. Existence is an infinitely large ocean metaphorically speaking, and literally in terms of volume.

I understand, ... it's about physics/energy. There is Zero-point energy, Ground state energy, Vacuum energy and so on, all in this physical universe, thank you. Now how did it get here is our debate, .. right? But I guess if scientists can observe big-bangs happening as common as lightnings, they must have by now a satellite 'outside' our universe filming this, or some NASA artist drawing these down as they happen.

You are quote mining out of context.. Might want to try again .

Now how did it get here is our debate,

Energy is only made of energy. You can only be made from the substance of existence itself.. How it got there? It's always been there. Hence, are you telling me you are not in and of existence? Are you telling me that the Big Bang did not occur in existence, or be an emergent property of existence? I will expect you to answer those questions.

I am asking where the 'pin-sized universe' at the 'moment' of its expansion, that Event Horizon, that Planck Epoch, that Gravitational singularity or whatever you want to call it happened IN?

The volume capacity of existence is infinite. You will agree that the Universe is in and of existence right? .. Whether or not you understand that the observable universe can not be contained in a box to which has no volume or capacity to contain it is not my problem. The energy itself is the substance of existence. Hence, you only need to figure that out is ask what you are made of, and what the universe is made of. The answer is obvious... And existence is that to which is literally everywhere regardless if you can see other possible big bangs from Earth or not... The only omnipresent thing there is, is existence. Hence the overall universe. The container and sustainer of all that there is.

Are you insinuating that the 'pre-big bang pin-sized universe' was about to 'expand in' PURE ENERGY? And that within this 'Pure Energy' big bangs are as common as lightning on water?

A big bang is a physical phenomenon of energy. Doesn't matter what the volume energy was that produced the big bang... And your argument here is incoherent to the context of the metaphor I used in regards to "could be as common as lightning out to sea".. And yes the big bang expands in a volume of energy from which itself is also made of. It came from that volume. Your argument seems like you don't understand the bubble bath analogy or why energy can interfere with itself.

he links you gave me all talk about our obvious physical universe and the scientific opinions on how it operates.

You talk as if there is a magical non-physical existence.. Did or didn't you agree with me that nothing can not be a person, place, substance, object, or thing? Perhaps you can describe this non-physical place made of nothing?..

I am satisfied with what our Creator has done with this universe and us humans, it is only when some smart, God-hating scientists try to convince me that they know where it came from, and for what, that troubles me.

Religious dogma isn't going to be worth anything in this discussion. Please appeal to emotion somewhere else.. Perhaps someplace where someone will care... Hence, you are going down the dishonest discourse road to which began with your quote mining me out of context above. It's no surprise you would result to "GOD haters" when put in a corner intellectually.

If the universe had a start, ... a beginning, ... then it came from a place that spacetime already existed.

Understanding the fundamentals of space and time might help you.

1) Time is a universal consequence of existence itself.
2) Space is also a universal consequence of existence to which deals with capacity and volume.

Example:

How do you see in a a-spatial existence? An existence with no dimensional value or capacity to contain your existence? Do you see in 3D in this magic place? If you die and go see your loved ones, how do you have separation of individuals and how do you judge distance between each other? It's funny because people of such religions don't actually stop to think about why their beliefs are self-refuting logical fallacies. Especially when vision deals with electromagnetism (light). But ok, we must be "GOD Haters" for actually using our brains. :/

If it came from 'nothing', that is, where time and space did not exist outside our universe

Science doesn't say it came from nothing.. There is this little joke in cosmology you should be aware of:

Nothing isn't nothing anymore

What you perceive to be nothing is actually a state of energy. It has physical property and value. Nor is it static, or timeless. It's the ground state of time, space, substance, capacity, and volume. And apparently has the ability to produce big bangs if the conditions are right. There could have been billions of big bangs before our own. And there could likely be billions more after.

Now in quantum physics, they do try to re-define nothing as a 'little of something'

No, they define ground state, the lack of particles, atoms, or galaxies ect as what you perceive to be nothing. But it's actually not.. It's a physical state of energy. They don't redefine anything here, they state exactly what it is. What they don't fully understand is all of it's properties or how exactly particles gain mass from this state.

simple fisherman, and according to my experiment on nothing, nothing IS nothing. Matter of fact, nothing is so powerful that even a pin-sized nothing could suck up this universe in far less time then the few seconds it took your big bang to occur.

Literal nothing doesn't exist. Literal nothing can't do anything at all.

Again, scientific observations of our physical universe, whether through quantum field theory or any other theory will not convince me that our Creator God does not exist

The fact that consciousness can't exist without cause ought to have been a big clue to you.. The biggest clue is that you ought to realize that you can't design and create existence and it's rules so yourself can exist... Your GOD doesn't exist because it's a logical fallacy to begin with. And anything that does exist is a product of existence, an emergent property of. Just like our universe is. Just like a conscious state is... Now if you believe some alien being made you like we make synthetic life as a GOD, then that is your choice and opinion. You may as well call us GOD's too at this point.

I have done a simple experiment where I can PROVE that 'nothing' DOES exist.

You have done no such thing. The fact you are trying to give nothing informational value and existential value at all self-collapses your entire argument. Maybe you can try again from a position of non-existence.

As long as you see 'properties' you are on the wrong track. That is like a little 'white lie', it's almost 'nothing'. If I told you 1+1=2.000000000000001, would you say that's accurate? The same way 'nothing' has to be defined in its absoluteness. We cannot add or take away from 'nothing', and if you're looking at its 'properties', it is NOT nothing.

Your argument is about as coherent as a four corner time cube.

Yes, ... i understand.

You obviously do not.. And it's abundantly clear that you do not.

It is your BB theory that troubles me my friend, for it claims to know a whole lot more than what they actually know. Even if man dissected everything in this universe, they would continue to find smaller and smaller things that the bigger ones are made of, and still end up right where they started, IN their Creator who not only created, but ordained the laws of physics.

It troubles you because you have no conceptual clue as to what you are talking about. And giving your responses, I can tell you likely didn't read any of the material I put forth, or understand it for that matter. The only thing that can "ordain" the laws of physics is existence itself. All laws are subject to the laws of existence, and originate from them. Including those that govern consciousness..

INFINITY goes both ways, towards the BIG AND the small, ... the micros.

Nope! Infinite Volume just means there are infinite number of points.. You can never have a -volume or a negative capacity. There is no such thing as a negative mass either.

Look at a fertilized human egg, and how the cells multiply. Let's say the fertilized egg is 'everything that is', and nothing outside of it, just as your tiny pin sized universe at the Planck Epoch.

Logical fail.. ? Yep... Your trying to equate an infinite volume as pin sized. And there will never be "nothing" on the outside of the egg. What makes the volume also makes up the object of the volume. Hence, do you understand that we are literally in and of existence? I don't think you do...

So tell me, how does your tiny universe evolve from that gravitational singularity, into the complex and eternal and infinite universe we have today without some form of nutrient/energy directing all them gasses and gravity it contains, through the dark ages to create worlds and suns?

Not hard to get energy from energy.. It's not hard to realize that energy interferes with itself. Your argument is like asking me how snowflakes form with the exception that we weren't there to obverse the step by step process to fully understand how exactly the Universe came to be. That gets a bit trickier.. Like trying to rewind and know the exact path of every atom in chronological order in a stirred cup of coffee after it's been stirred. It won't negate the fact that we know it's a physical phenomenon... What you want to do is play magic, as if someone is waving a magic wand because your intellectually lazy and feel the need to defend your religious beliefs with a GOD of the Gaps argument.

Example:

You don't know exactly to the quantum level of how exactly a tree fell in the forest. Thus GOD must have done it even though we know it was, by the evidence, a natural event / physical phenomenon.

Yes, scientists will never know the exact order of events that triggered the Big Bang simply because that would be impossible. They can however figure out how such a Big Bang can occur giving the evidence and physics. And there might even be more than one physical way in which that kind of event could occur just as there is more than one way to grandmas house.. Hence, there could be more than one plausible explanation in terms of physics for the same event. Kind of like you don't need to pull the trigger for a bullet to fire when all it needs is to be subjected to fire and heat. And no matter what you believe, the big bang will always have been a physical event with physical cause! And thus applicable to physics.

Who told our gravity to act a certain way?

Who told information to act a certain way to make it possible to have a conscious state with cognitive dynamics vs an unconscious state? It's funny because in science, information =/= energy as both substance and value. Energy = force.. Information / energy = causation. And not even consciousness could exist without this. Again your argument is like asking me what tells weather to create snowflakes. Well, learn the four stages of matter and what energy does and can do. And not everything acts predictably, so you might want to look up Chaos theory, and the term emergence.

Are our thoughts created by time and some atoms colliding with each other creating energy which in turn creates the delusion that we perceive as 'reason'?

You are an energy being made of atoms, and atoms made of energy. Reason included.

Yes I understand, the where it came from, how big, is it expanding or retracting, how it formed itself and so on are as colorful as the Hindu religion, if not more. Childrens stories have more meaning to them than these assumptions. How these become actual 'theories' is beyond me? Red-shift... oh man???

Might actually help to pick up a science book and actually learn something other than mythical children stories?

You do believe this universe is expanding, ... right? So can anything expand in 'nothing'?

it's a good thing it's not expanding into nothing eh?

Do you now see the lie of this theory?

Do you see your ignorance of this theory? I do!

"The universe is expanding" - or retracting, or is flat, or it cancels itself out by the positive and negative energy, ... in which case we don't really exist?

No it doesn't.. It only points to zero-point energy. A ground state.

"The universe is the sum total of all existence" - unless of course it resides and is expanding in pure energy? Whistle

Energy is made of the substance existence. And what is energy made of? ENERGY!.. Boy that was easy! :/

"The universe MIGHT BE infinite, ... we really don't know?" - or it could be finite, it depends how the scientist that is working on the theory understands 'time'?

In order for you to exist, existence must be infinite. Non-existence doesn't exist as a literal existing person, place, object, substance, or thing. Thus there is no boundaries to existence.

Yes, there is gravity, but do you believe that gravity (or whatever smaller energy/anti energy/dark matter/quark they can come up with) simply expanded in nothing (no God/Energy/Ruler/Lawgiver) and assembled itself? Is this what observing and understanding the LAWS of PHYSICS has taught you?

The full understanding of gravity deals with how it works between the quantum and the scales of the very large. This is still being studied and explored in order to get a better understanding of gravity. Gravity plays less of a role as you get to the quantum scales.

This is exactly why we look for the Creator. You through your stories which includes a lot of lies mixed with truths, and my observing these theories with what God has revealed to me through my asking Him.

You are either confused with your Pantheism, or you are calling me and literally everything existent as GOD.. You do understand the consequences of your statement here in relation to what you quoted me on right?

And GOD is revealed to you by asking him? Well I got that line from theists like you hundreds of times. I like to ask them a very simple question:

1) what is GOD's favorite color?

It's interesting because every one of you make that same claim. I either get all sorts of colors, all, or none as answers. Care to answer that?

Infinite is a concept of being always unlimited. IF your big-bang universe is expanding, then it is NOT 'infinite'. Your stories of the observable universe within an unlimited universe is trickery. If you have a 2X4X6" brick and you identify a 2"X2"X2" part of it does not make it ANOTHER brick, it is still the same brick.

Are you saying existence is unlimited? And the Big Bang universe is not relevant here. And do tell us how you put a universe inside a nothing box that has no capacity or volume. You like to call it trickery? And you clearly didn't grasp the brick analogy... I am literally face palming while reading your incoherent responses here.

If you break that brick to tiny pieces, and then you pick up a grain of the brick, it is still a brick, but NOT the whole brick. In the same way, your version of a pin sized universe is NOT the 'whole universe' squeezed down to that small size.

You might want to educate yourself on atoms are, the differences of atoms, what the periodic table is, and even what atomic decay is.

What if I told you that you are not really a human being, but only one tiny cell? I would be lying, for you are made up of about what, ... 13 trillion cells that created all your hair, skin, bones, organs and so on.

"I" is a projected emergent property. Your argument is a placebo. It takes more than one bit or piece of information to make you possible. Same concept for a conscious state. Your argument here prove my point. There no "I" in team here. I is a emergent property of the team. Hence, I = all the information that gives I and Identity. Thus I can not exist without cause! Hence you are right, I am an emergent property of existence.. The property state in which I currently am just so happens to be a Human. Same applies to you.

NOTHING is nothing and INFINITE is infinite, we cannot add or take away from either one.

Giving Infinite the other simply doesn't exist. And you can't take away from something that doesn't exist. Please try again.

I understand, there has to be space for volume to exist, yet you say the universe was as tiny as a pinhead at the moment of the big bang!

Does the forks in the drawer exist in the kitchen? .. Seems you are having a huge problem here with understand this. It's irrelevant the energy volume / density of the big bang itself. It's as irrelevant as the energy density and volume in which the fork in your kitchen takes up as well.

What 'space' did 'space and time' (the pre-big bang universe) exist in, since SPACE is claimed to have come about by the big bang, that is within this universe

The Universe came from what it's made of.. No where does modern physics say space came from literally nothing, or exist in nothing. Again you need to spend some time understanding what a vacuum is Your question answered itself.

[arian]

Got it, big-bangs are as common as lightnings, ...

This is not what it stated. They could be as common as lightning out to sea and you wouldn't even know it. Existence is an infinitely large ocean metaphorically speaking, and literally in terms of volume.

I used to be in AMWAY a long time ago, .... were you ever in AMWAY, … metaphorically speaking?

I understand, ... it's about physics/energy. There is Zero-point energy, Ground state energy, Vacuum energy and so on, all in this physical universe, thank you. Now how did it get here is our debate, .. right? But I guess if scientists can observe big-bangs happening as common as lightning, they must have by now a satellite 'outside' our universe filming this, or some NASA artist drawing these down as they happen.

You are quote mining out of context.. Might want to try again .

Have you seen a picture of Jesus? You know, ... the pretty blond Jewish guy with radiant blue eyes?

(You might say my comment here is irrelevant to the topic, .. but it is not. GOD created this here universe by and through His Son Jesus Christ, so Jesus is very relevant.)

The reason I ask is that billions of people have a picture like that of Jesus in their homes, hanging on their necks, and in their churches, and they came to accept it as Jesus, no matter what they learn and know of the Jewish people 2000 years ago. People tend to accept suggestive metaphors even if it contradicts the obvious reality.

Now how did it get here is our debate,

Energy is only made of energy. You can only be made from the substance of existence itself.. How it got there? It's always been there. Hence, are you telling me you are not in and of existence? Are you telling me that the Big Bang did not occur in existence, or be an emergent property of existence? I will expect you to answer those questions.

ENERGY - physics
power supply or source: a supply or source of electrical, mechanical, or other form of power
5. physics capacity to do work: the capacity of a body or system to do work. Symbol E
(Microsoft® Encarta®)

We know of energy and the many ways that it can be used. Without some wires attached to a light bulb, as far as I know, ... energy just sits there and waits until it eventually dies out.
There is a Source of energy, and this source is GOD, and yes, ... He has always been there. GOD supplies the sun with energy, and everything else in this universe. He also created the things (including us) to run on His Energy.

I don't drive a battery, I drive a car. The battery only starts my car.

I am asking where the 'pin-sized universe' at the 'moment' of its expansion, that Event Horizon, that Planck Epoch, that Gravitational singularity or whatever you want to call it happened IN?

The volume capacity of existence is infinite. You will agree that the Universe is in and of existence right? .. Whether or not you understand that the observable universe can not be contained in a box to which has no volume or capacity to contain it is not my problem. The energy itself is the substance of existence. Hence, you only need to figure that out is ask what you are made of, and what the universe is made of. The answer is obvious... And existence is that to which is literally everywhere regardless if you can see other possible big bangs from Earth or not... The only omnipresent thing there is, is existence. Hence the overall universe. The container and sustainer of all that there is.

You are explaining things from a perspective as if you were really nothing but ‘energy’, ignoring the awesomeness of creation. Now this would be a good answer if you were a rock or a tree. But you are not a tree my friend, but a human with senses, feelings, intellect, reason and a free will to use rational thinking. So in your own words please, ... 'try again'. Only this time, try to imagine you are a human with eyes to see, a brain to reason out what you see around you.

Are you insinuating that the 'pre-big bang pin-sized universe' was about to 'expand in' PURE ENERGY? And that within this 'Pure Energy' big bangs are as common as lightning on water?

A big bang is a physical phenomenon of energy. Doesn't matter what the volume energy was that produced the big bang...

The words and the ideas behind the ‘big bang’ was created by God-hating scientists, along with the phenomenon associated with this idea. This idea can be built on by continuously observing Gods creation, what is already here, and these scientists know that. If one hypothesis sounds too crazy, … just keep putting them out there and sooner or later one will be accepted as a theory.

You keep avoiding the big question; 'where was the pin-sized universe/energy about to explode/expand IN?'

And your argument here is incoherent to the context of the metaphor I used in regards to "could be as common as lightning out to sea".. And yes the big bang expands in a volume of energy from which itself is also made of. It came from that volume. Your argument seems like you don't understand the bubble bath analogy or why energy can interfere with itself.

According to the theory, this 'energy' created the innumerable galaxies, stars, planets, and all the life we see on this earth, including us debating humans, ... now I would NOT call that 'interference', .. but more like a Creator.
Does this mean that the Creator Father Time is no longer in the equation?

The 'god concept' is no longer needed, .. the 'time concept' is no longer needed, and now it's 'energies' turn at creation; "the big bang expands in a volume of energy from which itself is also made of."

he links you gave me all talk about our obvious physical universe and the scientific opinions on how it operates.

You talk as if there is a magical non-physical existence.. Did or didn't you agree with me that nothing can not be a person, place, substance, object, or thing? Perhaps you can describe this non-physical place made of nothing?..

I never said that something could be made of 'nothing'. God, the Eternal Energy created everything from that which we cannot see, and NOT nothing.
He gave all things created a form and purpose.
He set the laws of physics, created Spiritual individuals like angels to live in another dimension called Heaven.
And lastly, He decided to create man in His image, of the dust of the earth, and gave him a spirit that man might live and rule the earth. This made of dust man; this 'tent' became a living soul, a reasoning self directing person. Man (Adam) was created as an eternal being, where he could have lived forever without aging.

Time as we know it started with the rebellion against our Creator, the clock started clicking and age, the sign of death began.
It's all there in the Bible.

I am satisfied with what our Creator has done with this universe and us humans, it is only when some smart, God-hating scientists try to convince me that they know where it came from, and for what, that troubles me.

Religious dogma isn't going to be worth anything in this discussion. Please appeal to emotion somewhere else.. Perhaps someplace where someone will care... Hence, you are going down the dishonest discourse road to which began with your quote mining me out of context above. It's no surprise you would result to "GOD haters" when put in a corner intellectually.

If I have intellect, it is not by schooling, but through the life God has chosen for me. If you think this is some 'intellectual argument' we’re having, then it’s one-sided. I am here to defend the truth, not just about the BB theory, but about us, about you and me, about my neighbors.

You know well I did not call you a God hater, you are my friend. It is that God-hating science, that group of liars that take Gods creation and laws and destroy them little by little with their outrageous hypotheses sold off as theories. They use magic through science and technology and every form of art to pervert the truth in every aspect of human life, till life is drained of meaning and man walks around like zombies, and their response to the world around them is no different than a trees, or a rock. These calculating God-haters attack anything that is good and right, and as the Bible says, "The darkest of hell is reserved for them", and rightly so.

As for 'religious dogma', ... you should re-read your posts, IMO you are a very religious man.

'Appeal to emotion somewhere else'? Do you believe that emotion is a God-believing trait ONLY? Do you think you are less intellectual or less scientific if you show your emotions?

Look at North Korea my friend, now there is a country without emotion. The only time they can show emotion is when they are 'ordered’ to show it.

But you are right, ... for those debating the BB theory of evolution, showing emotion would be weird to say the least. I mean just think how it would look if a BB theorist would describe the creation of our moon for instance, (you know, .. the Mars sized rock hitting the earth and knocking the moon from it, ..) and then break down and cry, or just get teary eyed? This is why I said that your responses sound like they come from a tree, then a human. More like Spock on Star Trek. Yes, getting teary eyed is not very 'logical' nor showing emotion in any form. Once these God-haters succeed in removing all emotion from the public, they know people will become much easier to control.

I feel such grief at what I see going on in this world, and yes I guess grief is an emotion and I thank God I still have some.

If the universe had a start, ... a beginning, ... then it came from a place that spacetime already existed.

Understanding the fundamentals of space and time might help you.

1) Time is a universal consequence of existence itself.
2) Space is also a universal consequence of existence to which deals with capacity and volume.

Example:
How do you see in a a-spatial existence? An existence with no dimensional value or capacity to contain your existence? Do you see in 3D in this magic place? If you die and go see your loved ones, how do you have separation of individuals and how do you judge distance between each other? It's funny because people of such religions don't actually stop to think about why their beliefs are self-refuting logical fallacies. Especially when vision deals with electromagnetism (light). But ok, we must be "GOD Haters" for actually using our brains.

So because you can’t or because you don’t understand the Spiritual (unseen) realm you think it’s a magical place? And that those who do understand this Spiritual realm, don’t use their brains?
I understand that in the Spiritual realm the 3D illusion will be gone, and “we will see everything as it really IS� which is in all dimentions.

Do you really think that a 4foot by 8foot plywood really shrinks to 4inch by 8inches when it’s a few hundred yards away from you?

In Heaven we will see our ‘loved ones’ (Brothers and Sisters in Christ, not necessarily the loved ones you think of, like mother, father, brothers and cousins) as ‘they really are’, not by our present limited human judgement.

First, you really should try to understand what I believe and how I understand and see the world around me? Your understanding of god and Christianity is very different than mine, and this is the reason you take comfort in your assumption that my “beliefs are self-refuting logical fallacies.�

My GOD is a source of being who cannot be named, or seen, but only known through our spiritual eyes and understood with our spiritual minds
My God is not one of the ‘theistic deities’,
My Heaven is not in the supernatural realm,
I discern and know the difference between supernatural divinations and the message that comes from Gods Holy Spirit.
We (Believers) do not fight a physical war, but wage a war against the ‘powers of darkness, against powers and principalities’.
Only when you can start to comprehend and see the world, the universe around you as it really is, will you be able to fully understand who my GOD IS.

If it came from 'nothing', that is, where time and space did not exist outside our universe

Science doesn't say it came from nothing.. There is this little joke in cosmology you should be aware of:

Nothing isn't nothing anymore

What you perceive to be nothing is actually a state of energy. It has physical property and value. Nor is it static, or timeless. It's the ground state of time, space, substance, capacity, and volume. And apparently has the ability to produce big bangs if the conditions are right. There could have been billions of big bangs before our own. And there could likely be billions more after.

‘Nothing’ is nothing my friend, it is as real as ‘everything’ is. Energy is ‘something’, and I understand and have demonstrated that ‘nothing’ does exist, and it is the opposite of everything.

First try to scientifically comprehend the ‘Real Universe’ and not down size it to the ‘Observable Universe’ before you explain to me about your ‘billions of big-bangs’ that are as ‘common as lightning’s out at sea’.

“If the conditions are right�?
Wouldn’t you say if you took an ‘ape couple’, (your cousins) inside your home and let them live with you for oh, three generations or so, .. help ‘conditions be right’ for their offspring to be ready to accept their inevitable evolution, and go out and get a job?

Now in quantum physics, they do try to re-define nothing as a 'little of something'

No, they define ground state, the lack of particles, atoms, or galaxies etc as what you perceive to be nothing. But it's actually not.. It's a physical state of energy. They don't redefine anything here, they state exactly what it is. What they don't fully understand is all of it's properties or how exactly particles gain mass from this state.

The ‘ground state of ‘something is something’ and the ‘ground state of nothing is nothing’, and your quote that “nothing isn’t nothing anymore� proves that science tries to ‘redefine’ NOTHING to SOMETHING.
And, if; “they don't fully understand is all of its properties or how exactly particles gain mass from this state�, why are you trying to pass off ‘billions of big bangs’? Why not try to get a handle on ONE first, before you jump into billions of big bangs happening in ‘nothing’.

simple fisherman, and according to my experiment on nothing, nothing IS nothing. Matter of fact, nothing is so powerful that even a pin-sized nothing could suck up this universe in far less time then the few seconds it took your big bang to occur.

Literal nothing doesn't exist. Literal nothing can't do anything at all.

Literal nothing is just that, ‘literal nothing’. If it didn’t exist, I could not define it, much less make an experiment to demonstrate its strength. It holds the water in the glass with all the power of the entire universe. As long as ‘something’ does not get in there to replace the ‘nothing’, the nothing continues to hold its ground.

Again, scientific observations of our physical universe, whether through quantum field theory or any other theory will not convince me that our Creator God does not exist

The fact that consciousness can't exist without cause ought to have been a big clue to you..
The biggest clue is that you ought to realize that you can't design and create existence and it's rules so yourself can exist...

So what caused energy to exist? What caused the ‘laws’ of nature, the laws of gravity, the laws of physics to come about, energy influencing itself?

What caused ‘cause’ to exist, again, energy? Why not then GOD?

Your GOD doesn't exist because it's a logical fallacy to begin with.

You say logical fallacy? But ‘energy’ sitting there in nothing influencing itself to do something is NOT a logical fallacy? You’re right, … it’s more like a ‘logical insult’.

And anything that does exist is a product of existence, an emergent property of.

Exactly, … God said to Moses (us) that “I Am�, and explained that He’s the one with all the energy who consciously created all things visible AND invisible.

Just like our universe is. Just like a conscious state is... Now if you believe some alien being made you like we make synthetic life as a GOD, then that is your choice and opinion. You may as well call us GOD's too at this point.

The Bible says we ARE gods. We were created in Gods image. God is only alien to you because you still don’t know Him.

I have done a simple experiment where I can PROVE that 'nothing' DOES exist.

You have done no such thing. The fact you are trying to give nothing informational value and existential value at all self-collapses your entire argument. Maybe you can try again from a position of non-existence.

I tell you I did, and can prove that ‘nothing’ exists.
Wait, … you said ‘nothing’. Right there you just said ‘nothing’ as you did many times in all your debates, so are you giving ‘nothing informational value and existential value’? Of course you are, otherwise I could not understand what you were talking about.

And, I am giving my views from a position of what you consider none existence, it is from my my ‘spiritual self’. You too can awake your spiritual sense and share my views; only you’ll have to do some searching first.

As long as you see 'properties' you are on the wrong track. That is like a little 'white lie', it's almost 'nothing'. If I told you 1+1=2.000000000000001, would you say that's accurate? The same way 'nothing' has to be defined in its absoluteness. We cannot add or take away from 'nothing', and if you're looking at its 'properties', it is NOT nothing.

Your argument is about as coherent as a four corner time cube.

I see I have lost you. Look, … you even said there is a common scientific joke that: “Nothing isn’t nothing anymore�, right? Why would that be a joke? It is true, God-hating science HAS changed the meaning of nothing, where ‘nothing is not nothing anymore’. I must admit, it is funny!

Yes, ... I understand.

You obviously do not.. And it's abundantly clear that you do not.

I understand in a sense that I know what you’re trying to tell me.
Like this; you take me and show me a car, and explain that this is a car. It can carry 6 people in comfort from one place to another, it has a trunk that can hold luggage and your groceries, … and so on. Now you might know many other things that make up the car, like the engine and how all the electronics were designed in it, but that does not mean I don’t know the meaning of a car and its intended purpose. Another words, if you told me that this car was also for food, I would look into that in more detail before I started chewing on the tires.
Besides, … I know more about what you’re trying to tell me than you think, but it is obvious to me that you don’t understand what I’m saying, and it is NOT because I am incoherent.

It is your BB theory that troubles me my friend, for it claims to know a whole lot more than what they actually know. Even if man dissected everything in this universe, they would continue to find smaller and smaller things that the bigger ones are made of, and still end up right where they started, IN their Creator who not only created, but ordained the laws of physics.

It troubles you because you have no conceptual clue as to what you are talking about. And giving your responses, I can tell you likely didn't read any of the material I put forth, or understand it for that matter.

I did look and read some of it. The kid in the one video got boring for me, but I will look into it more if I have time.
It’s like I would show you a ton of sand, and try to prove to you it really is a ton by measuring each grain out on a triple-beam scale, … boring.

I trust what physical science has found in Gods Creation, I don’t have to know about quarks and how they react to gravity. But if they try to tell me that this sat there in nothing until it exploded, … well then I look deeper into it, and as always, … find that they are lying.

The only thing that can "ordain" the laws of physics is existence itself. All laws are subject to the laws of existence, and originate from them. Including those that govern consciousness..

INFINITY goes both ways, towards the BIG AND the small, ... the micros.

Nope! Infinite Volume just means there are infinite number of points.. You can never have a -volume or a negative capacity. There is no such thing as a negative mass either.

There, … you just admitted it again that nothing remains nothing; “There is no such thing as a negative mass either�.
As for my comment; “INFINITY goes both ways, towards the BIG AND the small, ... the micros� did not insinuate anything towards the negative. .001, or .0001 or .000000001 inches is still positive.
God is Positive, for He is ‘Everything’ from the tiniest of the micros to the endless reaches of Eternity/infinity, or Big.

Look at a fertilized human egg, and how the cells multiply. Let's say the fertilized egg is 'everything that is', and nothing outside of it, just as your tiny pin sized universe at the Planck Epoch.

Logical fail.. ? Yep... Your trying to equate an infinite volume as pin sized. And there will never be "nothing" on the outside of the egg. What makes the volume also makes up the object of the volume. Hence, do you understand that we are literally in and of existence? I don't think you do...

Yes I do understand that we are in and of existence, the physical part of us is. But our soul, our spirit is OF God, and not part of this natural universe. This is why our universe can exist, for it exists IN God. The BB story can only provide the “in and of existence�, and is unable to explain where it all (the entire universe) resides in. The closest they can come to is ‘almost nothing’, an upgrade for evolutionary science from ‘nothing’. Why? Because even for evolutionary science, saying the universe came from, and resides in nothing is, … well lets just say; not so smart.

Saying that the universe has always existed is a good one (too close for comfort though, since every Christian knows that God has always existed), but still it must reside IN something. To hold their ground, they stomp their feet and say: “Fine, … then it’s almost nothing, but we will never admit it is God.�

You see what physical man considers ‘nothing’ is really ‘Everything’, or ‘Eternal Energy’ which is GOD the “I Am�. Hey, … I just realized that GOD just used you to help me to advance another step closer to understanding our Creator. The wisdom of man (the physical mind) IS foolishness before GOD.

So tell me, how does your tiny universe evolve from that gravitational singularity, into the complex and eternal and infinite universe we have today without some form of nutrient/energy directing all them gasses and gravity it contains, through the dark ages to create worlds and suns?

Not hard to get energy from energy.. It's not hard to realize that energy interferes with itself.

Energy is a source, so how can ‘source interfering with source’ create all that we see? The skin is on the outside of us, the bones help to sturdy us and so on. We see order, well defined laws in physics, especially in biology which without some very definitive instruction could never come only from energy.

Your argument is like asking me how snowflakes form with the exception that we weren't there to obverse the step by step process to fully understand how exactly the Universe came to be.

There you go, so think about that for a second. We KNOW how snow is formed, and it sure doesn’t come from snow interfering with snow, ... agreed? Let’s see snow interfere with snow and create the mountains?

That gets a bit trickier.. Like trying to rewind and know the exact path of every atom in chronological order in a stirred cup of coffee after it's been stirred. It won't negate the fact that we know it's a physical phenomenon...

Do we need to figure it out? We know it can be done, and for now, that’s good enough, no? But what was the pin-sized universe residing in before it expanded? How did energy alone CREATE so many rules and laws?

What you want to do is play magic, as if someone is waving a magic wand because your intellectually lazy and feel the need to defend your religious beliefs with a GOD of the Gaps argument.

There is no ‘Gaps’ with GOD, He created and made every molecule, every atom and assigned how they should act. He’s the One who gave a purpose for everything, and ordained how far, wide and deep they should go. He planned and gave us two eyes, two hands and a brain to think, … so think my friend.

Example:

You don't know exactly to the quantum level of how exactly a tree fell in the forest. Thus GOD must have done it even though we know it was, by the evidence, a natural event / physical phenomenon.

Yes, scientists will never know the exact order of events that triggered the Big Bang simply because that would be impossible. They can however figure out how such a Big Bang can occur giving the evidence and physics. And there might even be more than one physical way in which that kind of event could occur just as there is more than one way to grandmas house.. Hence, there could be more than one plausible explanation in terms of physics for the same event. Kind of like you don't need to pull the trigger for a bullet to fire when all it needs is to be subjected to fire and heat. And no matter what you believe, the big bang will always have been a physical event with physical cause! And thus applicable to physics.

“You don't know exactly to the quantum level of how exactly a tree fell in the forest. Thus GOD must have done it even though we know it was, by the evidence, a natural event / physical phenomenon�

What? That comment must have been made up by a so called Christian Evolutionist (wolf in sheep’s clothing), or a confused Theistic Trinitarian Christian, for I would never say something like that.

Who told our gravity to act a certain way?

Who told information to act a certain way to make it possible to have a conscious state with cognitive dynamics vs an unconscious state? It's funny because in science, information =/= energy as both substance and value. Energy = force.. Information / energy = causation. And not even consciousness could exist without this. Again your argument is like asking me what tells weather to create snowflakes. Well, learn the four stages of matter and what energy does and can do. And not everything acts predictably, so you might want to look up Chaos theory, and the term emergence.

Yes, and consciousness could not exist without oxygen either, .. so what’s your point? But let me ask you this, ‘where does consciousness come from, from causation/weather, our gluteus maximus, or from our brain, as if the brain was created for just that purpose?

God created the weather in our atmosphere to make snow, and we already know pretty well how it is made. I’m not questioning any of that, I know we know enough about the LAWS of physics to accept how snow is made. My question would be; ‘who designed the weather to give us snow, rain and hail?’

As for the Chaos theory is a watered down version of the real meaning of chaos which is really a state of complete disorder and confusion, just as what they did to the meaning of ‘nothing’.

The BB theory is that there was an explosion, but that would mean that it had to have somewhere to ‘explode into’, so they changed it to ‘implosion , or ‘rapid-expansion’ … as if that was any different? Either way you look at it, the universe had to be in a chaotic state as random (no will of anyone or anything) events, or chance assembled the universe as we know it. But this is silly, for it defies every physical LAW.

So they continue to reinterpret the meanings of critical words used in this lying theory, including chaos, to mean ‘chaos isn’t chaos anymore Toto’ but now it means that complex natural systems obey certain rules. OK.

Are our thoughts created by time and some atoms colliding with each other creating energy which in turn creates the delusion that we perceive as 'reason'?

You are an energy being made of atoms, and atoms made of energy. Reason included.

Made of, that’s what we are after, … who made the atoms and where did the energy come from, and where is it residing IN?
A sand castle is made of sand, glass is made of sand, sand is made of energy, but does that mean the sand castle is not real, or the glass but only energy? See, just as I said, God-hating science wants to do away with the universe into (I guess now it’s) ‘almost nothing’!?

Yes I understand, the where it came from, how big, is it expanding or retracting, how it formed itself and so on are as colorful as the Hindu religion, if not more. Children’s stories have more meaning to them than these assumptions. How these become actual 'theories' is beyond me? Red-shift... oh man???

Might actually help to pick up a science book and actually learn something other than mythical children stories?

A science book on evolution of the BB? That’s not science, that’s science-fiction. Besides, why would I need books, I am nothing but energy, that is what you said. My thoughts, my body this universe is nothing but energy, … hey sensei, look I’m one with the universe!

The Bible helped me to stand my ground so far, could I survive the life I lived as only energy? Can energy reason? … never mind.

You do believe this universe is expanding, ... right? So can anything expand in 'nothing'?

it's a good thing it's not expanding into nothing eh?

According to the BB theory, it is. The universe is all there is, … and it’s expanding!

Do you now see the lie of this theory?

Do you see your ignorance of this theory? I do!

Accepting a hypothetical theory that changes meaning of words, magic and deception, void of emotion mixed in with a lot of rhetoric is not what I’d call wisdom my friend.

"The universe is expanding" - or retracting, or is flat, or it cancels itself out by the positive and negative energy, ... in which case we don't really exist?

No it doesn't.. It only points to zero-point energy. A ground state.

Come now, … you already admitted it’s not really zero. Fine then, let it be Zero, which is nothing, so it points to nothing?

"The universe is the sum total of all existence" - unless of course it resides and is expanding in pure energy? Whistle

Energy is made of the substance existence. And what is energy made of? ENERGY!.. Boy that was easy! :/

You know, .. I am beginning to understand that you really don’t understand the question; “What is the universe/energy, the sum total of everything that you know expanding into?� The theory says it was the size of a pinhead, where did this pinhead sized universe expand out into?

"The universe MIGHT BE infinite, ... we really don't know?" - or it could be finite, it depends how the scientist that is working on the theory understands 'time'?

In order for you to exist, existence must be infinite. Non-existence doesn't exist as a literal existing person, place, object, substance, or thing. Thus there is no boundaries to existence.

Since your BB states that the universe is all there is, so I assume that the universe is your version of existence, right? So how can a PINSIZED universe be infinite?
How could they know that it was the size of a pinhead? Is there a theory on “Before existence was infinite�? Or “When infinite was very small�?
How could one know if it’s expanding if it already has no boundaries? Could they be misinterpreting the stars moving away from us because of the rotation of the earth gives that illusion? You know, .. just like when they videoed a beam of light across a Coke bottle and claimed it was the speed of light?

I agree with you that; “there is no boundaries to existence.� For GOD has no boundaries, and the universe is IN God. God created it as we see it now, just as He created us and everything we see and feel.

This is exactly why we look for the Creator. You through your stories which includes a lot of lies mixed with truths, and my observing these theories with what God has revealed to me through my asking Him.

You are either confused with your Pantheism, or you are calling me and literally everything existent as GOD.. You do understand the consequences of your statement here in relation to what you quoted me on right?

You do understand, that is why you capitalized my god as GOD, you only pretend that you don’t,

And GOD is revealed to you by asking him? Well I got that line from theists like you hundreds of times.

Again, nice try, but I said; “and my observing these theories with what God has revealed to me through my asking Him�
This is becoming a meaningless argument, which I want no more part of. One last quote and that’s it.

I like to ask them a very simple question:

1) what is GOD's favorite color?

It's interesting because every one of you make that same claim. I either get all sorts of colors, all, or none as answers. Care to answer that?

Again, … I am not a theist.

Well, let’s see now, which would be our Creators favorite color, .. hmm … I heard a lot in Detroit that ‘Black’ is beautiful, but I also know that ‘White’ rules the earth with Satan. ‘Red’ is very beautiful to me, for it is the color of the blood my Lord and Savior shed for me and you. Matter of fact I love red so much, that every time I see a red light, I stop and stare at it, and I sit there starring till the light turns green.

Hmm, … I would have to say, … it is the color of a rose in the dark.

You see, God does not need this physical light to define color, nor does He need our 3D illusion not to run into something. God sees everything as it really is. The illusion of colors were created for our enjoyment, not His.

I hit the button, … and that’s my final answer.

Odon.

[TheJackelantern]

Most of your comments above are pretty worthless to this debate arian. Resorting to circular logic and dogma / dishonest discourse wins you no prize today. Especially when over half your comments are incoherent to anything I've said. So let's scratch out all the worthless nonsense:

[strike]I used to be in AMWAY a long time ago, .... were you ever in AMWAY, … metaphorically speaking? [/strike]

Intentional stupidity.. check!

[strike]Have you seen a picture of Jesus? You know, ... the pretty blond Jewish guy with radiant blue eyes? The reason I ask is that billions of people have a picture like that of Jesus in their homes, hanging on their necks, and in their churches, and they came to accept it as Jesus, no matter what they learn and know of the Jewish people 2000 years ago. People tend to accept suggestive metaphors even if it contradicts the obvious reality. [/strike]

Nothing to do with Jesus.. Check!

ENERGY - physics
power supply or source: a supply or source of electrical, mechanical, or other form of power
5. physics capacity to do work: the capacity of a body or system to do work. Symbol E
(Microsoft® Encarta®)

Uses grade school understanding of Energy.. Check!

[strike]energy just sits there and waits until it eventually dies out.
There is a Source of energy, and this source is GOD, and yes, ... He has always been there. GOD supplies the sun with energy, and everything else in this universe. He also created the things (including us) to run on His Energy.[/strike]

Displays total lack of comprehension of basic physics and inputs GOD Done it!.. Even commits Solipsistic Pantheism while failing to understand consciousness can't exist without cause, or energy to do the work to support a consciousness..Check!

[strike]I don't drive a battery, I drive a car. The battery only starts my car. [/strike]

Another worthless commit from a position of ignorance.. Check!

[strike]You are explaining things from a perspective as if you were really nothing but ‘energy’, ignoring the awesomeness of creation. Now this would be a good answer if you were a rock or a tree. But you are not a tree my friend, but a human with senses, feelings, intellect, reason and a free will to use rational thinking. So in your own words please, ... 'try again'. Only this time, try to imagine you are a human with eyes to see, a brain to reason out what you see around you. [/strike]

E = everything including the awesomeness which E is of everyone including me. Hence, poor attempt at a plea to emotion and dogma check! Oh. E = emotion.. Damn I'm good at this game.. Maybe because I was once a Christian..Hmmm..

[strike]The words and the ideas behind the ‘big bang’ was created by God-hating scientists, along with the phenomenon associated with this idea. This idea can be built on by continuously observing Gods creation, what is already here, and these scientists know that. If one hypothesis sounds too crazy, … just keep putting them out there and sooner or later one will be accepted as a theory[/strike].

Another piss poor attempt at an emotional appeal and dogma. Though I get the feeling that existence is arguing with itself.. Are you saying that since I am from the Energy of your GOD, and me being an energy being that is in and of existence, that existence and the energy of your GOD, that being me, is rebelling against him? LOL... Ok, maybe you can try again? Maybe post something of intellectual value that doesn't slap itself in the face?

According to the theory, this 'energy' created the innumerable galaxies, stars, planets, and all the life we see on this earth, including us debating humans, ... now I would NOT call that 'interference', .. but more like a Creator.
Does this mean that the Creator Father Time is no longer in the equation?

I didn't strike this out because it's actually a relevant question..But one that's been already answered. Welcome back to the beginning of the circle, would you like to go around again? How do you create time before time existed? Did you bother to think this through? I don't think you did. Yep, it means a creator to time doesn't exist. Time is thus infinite. Like it's been already stated, time is a consequence of existence.

The 'god concept' is no longer needed, .. the 'time concept' is no longer needed, and now it's 'energies' turn at creation; "the big bang expands in a volume of energy from which itself is also made of."

Pantheists GOD concept will do just fine? After all, existence and it's rules are indeed needed to exist... And yep, the Observable universe came to be by "E".. Isn't energy amazing? It can do a lot of things! Like make snowflakes, and people to make snowmen and Jack Frost cartoons to boot!..

I never said that something could be made of 'nothing'. God, the Eternal Energy created everything from that which we cannot see, and NOT nothing.

Pantheism Alert! .. And how did your GOD creation consciousness? Everything eh? Is it not existence that creates everything? .. Funny, it's more likely for everything else to exist than consciousness. You sure you understand complexity, or what is required to support a conscious state? No? ... Ok.. If consciousness is so simple, make me a conscious being, thing, entity, or object... Because I can sit here all day making unconscious things like snowmen, and that's pretty easy and simple. Shouldn't be a problem for you to make a conscious Jack Frost for us... I mean according to your logic, consciousness doesn't need cause.. You think it creates everything? I don't recall it creating the snowflakes landing on my roof top.. Maybe you can try again?

If I have intellect,

Claiming you do while not displaying it isn't a very good game to play. :/

then it’s one-sided.

Nope, existence is pretty much every side regardless if said side it fallacious or not. The only universal side is existence itself. Do you deny this truth?

You know well I did not call you a God hater, you are my friend. It is that God-hating science

I can't be a GOD hater since I make no assumptions on the character of anything anyone might like to worship as a GOD. There may be a scientist being out there who induced a big bang either on purpose or by accident. However, GOD in such a concept is a matter of opinion. I don't hate the Pantheist GOD either. It is after all the top of the totem pole when it comes to GOD's.. But again that is a matter of opinion. And science can't hate GOD's, it doesn't even address the issue :/ Science studies existence to better understand it.. How is that hating?

you are my friend.

I don't mind being your friend either since I don't use division of ideology and religious beliefs as a judgement tool for friendship. Though I think our relationship here is a challenge each other relationship because I think we both like the challenge.

Look at North Korea my friend, now there is a country without emotion.

I'm a hardcore secularist. Atheist states are as bad as theocracies.. Hence, it's commonsense to know that the world is secular, and polytheistic. Peace comes by tolerance and co-existence and knowing that a secular system is the best possible system there can be... It's irrelevant if people realize the fact of what reality is or not in terms of science. And it's scientifically clear that human nature is relative in beliefs for various and many reasons. And that is where theists and non-theists need to work together. Extremists on any side is a bad thing.

for those debating the BB theory of evolution, showing emotion would be weird to say the least.

They do, but they also take their work very seriously.. You can't assume that scientists are all emotionally dead. The fact is that they are not. They like to enjoy life as much as you do. They love their families as much as you love yours. Yes we are energy beings.. But the full physical experience of that is being conscious energy beings. This does not make us worth less, it makes us real! Being made of energy is being made of something that has actual value. And even after death, regardless of what you believe, we will always have value simply because energy can neither be creator or destroyed. We will always belong to existence, and be of existence eternally.. Whether you believe you transcend consciously, or believe you may one day be that twinkling star in the sky that gives birth to new life. You, I, and everyone will always have purpose and value.

This is why I said that your responses sound like they come from a tree, then a human.

Do you know why we respond like this? It's to keep the discussion honest. I will walk away from this and play with my cat shimmy for about an hour. She's adorable and a ball of fun So even though it seems cold to say that we are energy beings made of atoms, and atoms made of energy ect... It's actually pretty damn amazing.. And I think on the scale of amazing to great for creation, or to be owned by any one being. Existence is amazing! And so are we!

So because you can’t or because you don’t understand the Spiritual (unseen) realm you think it’s a magical place?

That specifically deals with immateriality.. Which is the same thing as saying a place made of nothing. Lacking substance is lacking value. And it's pretty difficult to see things in 3D in a realm that doesn't have any dimensional value or electromagnetism. There is a lot wrong with the concept, and I think you nailed it when you said "unseen realm"..

Maybe a more plausible argument would be transcending into a different physical dimension / reality that doesn't violate plausibility. I can even give you an example to think about:

A child born a complete mute unable to sense this world lays on the bed. We can't see into this child's mind / world (currently speaking). And the child can't see or interact with ours either even though this child is literally apart of this world in every physical and literal way... So what if this child imagines it's own existence within its own world in relation to the brief information it has obtain during the stages of it's development in the whom, before it was born a mute due to complications... This child wouldn't even know it had a mother, or was even born....

But what happens if this child dies in its imagined world and wakes up? What would it think of the reality, that being ours, in relation to the one it's known till it's imagined death? .. And what does that say to our own state of existence and the possibility of transcending reality? Well in this case it wouldn't violate any laws of existence, or physical laws for that matter. It wouldn't violate conservation of energy either. So that is food for thought for you.

This might even give you a good idea of separation of time lines... All time lines exist in existence at the same time.. But it's a matter of shifting from one to the other. All people live their lives according to their own activities ect. Hence, there are literally billions of time lines that also share a universal one since they all exist at the same time. The only difference is they progress differently from one another, or are relative to each other. This is how time works on a basic level that doesn't need go into particle dilation to where it can get more complicated ect.

And that those who do understand this Spiritual realm, don’t use their brains?

I don't think they really thought it through... If they got rid of immateriality in their beliefs system, it might be better argument. However, the Abrihamic religions specifically state immateriality. And that is a problem. :/

I understand that in the Spiritual realm the 3D illusion will be gone, and “we will see everything as it really IS� which is in all dimensions.

This would require you to increase in dimensional complexity. Like having a 11 dimensional brain with 11 dimensional sensory organs ect.. Basically you are speaking about evolving to higher beings.

‘Nothing’ is nothing

= nonexistence.. Nothing isn't anything at all. Your logic fails because you are attempting to place a positive value greater than literal nothing on nothing. Nothing in the literal context is equal to non-existence. It does not exist.

[arian]

Most of your comments above are pretty worthless to this debate arian. Resorting to circular logic and dogma / dishonest discourse wins you no prize today. Especially when over half your comments are incoherent to anything I've said. So let's scratch out all the worthless nonsense:

[strike]I used to be in AMWAY a long time ago, .... were you ever in AMWAY, … metaphorically speaking? [/strike]

Intentional stupidity.. check!

Why do you think they put a 'Spock' character in Star Trek? Because its funny. The world does not operate with Vulcan type of rational thinking.
Look around man, look at TV and the movies. Look at the music videos, the songs, ... do you see an opposing force to all that is good or not?

My question about AMWAY was relevant to our discourse, only you missed it as you miss my Christian views. You thoughts and reasoning are on the inside of the box, ‘worldly’ as we say. You desperately try to separate the reality in this world, and your emotions from our debate, and if I show any, it interferes with your ‘Sci-Fi logic'. Just as AMWAY is a destroyer of families like dirt on an infected wound, your Sci-fi BB evolutionary theories have become exactly the same thing.

and please, .. don't give me that watered down ‘Chaos Theory’ definition either. Just like the meaning of ‘nothing’, you guys have altered ‘chaos’ to mean that there is a ‘little order’ within chaos, it just takes longer to manifest itself.
As your idol Lady Gaga said in an interview when asked; “How or when do you become Lady Gaga?� She went into a Yoga pose and replied: “It takes over me.�
“How does it take over you� she was asked.
“I lie to myself. All day I keep lying to myself, and if you lie to yourself long enough, … it will come true, you know�

Rom 1:24-25
24 And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. 25 They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen.
TEV

A tornado through a junkyard does NOT create a brand new 747 Jet, or anything other than Chaos. As far as I know, ... it never yet "Just Happened".

[strike]Have you seen a picture of Jesus? You know, ... the pretty blond Jewish guy with radiant blue eyes? The reason I ask is that billions of people have a picture like that of Jesus in their homes, hanging on their necks, and in their churches, and they came to accept it as Jesus, no matter what they learn and know of the Jewish people 2000 years ago. People tend to accept suggestive metaphors even if it contradicts the obvious reality. [/strike]

Nothing to do with Jesus.. Check!

Exactly, just as your 'illogical' attempt to explain your pin-sized universe sitting in a ‘point in space' getting ready to ‘create space and time in’ has nothing to do with creation.

ENERGY - physics
power supply or source: a supply or source of electrical, mechanical, or other form of power
5. physics capacity to do work: the capacity of a body or system to do work. Symbol E
(Microsoft® Encarta®)

Uses grade school understanding of Energy.. Check!

Again, ... I would like to refer you to observe your 'kindergarten level' videos and documentaries of the BB theory and the monkeys in evolution. The Sci-fi movie '2001 and 2010 Space Odyssey Obelisk' was not much better, even though science labeled it 'revolutionary'. Oh how desperately Satan wants to be God!

[strike]energy just sits there and waits until it eventually dies out.
There is a Source of energy, and this source is GOD, and yes, ... He has always been there. GOD supplies the sun with energy, and everything else in this universe. He also created the things (including us) to run on His Energy.[/strike]

Displays total lack of comprehension of basic physics and inputs GOD Done it!.. Even commits Solipsistic Pantheism while failing to understand consciousness can't exist without cause, or energy to do the work to support a consciousness.. Check!

Oh come now, ... I understand only too well, and you know it. You are trying to redefine Gods Creation to nothing, just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'nothing'.

And what, solipsistic Pantheism? Isn’t it you who says we are nothing but energy (the only reality), and when we die we once again become this energy (reality)?

[strike]I don't drive a battery, I drive a car. The battery only starts my car. [/strike]

Another worthless commit from a position of ignorance.. Check!

Is it possible that you are occupying the 'position of ignorance'?

[strike]You are explaining things from a perspective as if you were really nothing but ‘energy’, ignoring the awesomeness of creation. Now this would be a good answer if you were a rock or a tree. But you are not a tree my friend, but a human with senses, feelings, intellect, reason and a free will to use rational thinking. So in your own words please, ... 'try again'. Only this time, try to imagine you are a human with eyes to see, a brain to reason out what you see around you. [/strike]

E = everything including the awesomeness which E is of everyone including me. Hence, poor attempt at a plea to emotion and dogma check! Oh. E = emotion.. Damn I'm good at this game.. Maybe because I was once a Christian..Hmmm..

There you go again, you said; “E is for everyone including me� and what are you? “you said ‘energy’. So who is ‘committing Solipsistic Pantheism’ my friend?

A sandcastle is made of sand, grains of sand, tiny itsy-bitsy grains of sand. Just because sand exists, the sand castle did not assemble itself, unless, ... we're in the 'Twilight Zone', your Sci-fi version of Solipsistic reality.

Observing your posts, I doubt you know the meaning 'Christian, or Christ-like'. Your use of Scripture is very limited, to say the least (more like 'non-existent')

[strike]The words and the ideas behind the ‘big bang’ was created by God-hating scientists, along with the phenomenon associated with this idea. This idea can be built on by continuously observing Gods creation, what is already here, and these scientists know that. If one hypothesis sounds too crazy, … just keep putting them out there and sooner or later one will be accepted as a theory[/strike].

Another piss poor attempt at an emotional appeal and dogma. Though I get the feeling that existence is arguing with itself.. Are you saying that since I am from the Energy of your GOD, and me being an energy being that is in and of existence, that existence and the energy of your GOD, that being me, is rebelling against him? LOL... Ok, maybe you can try again? Maybe post something of intellectual value that doesn't slap itself in the face?

"Energy of your God, that being me"??? You do seem to be confusing yourself.
Did you not say that 'energy' is the soul-creator of your BB universe? You said that 'cause' was energy itself, acting on itself, and POW! 13.75 BILLION years later, here we are debating???

Now the age of your universe is not an accurate measurement of 13.75 billion years, but +- a few billion years, .. right? But according to your theory, those few billion years could mean life, or NO life on earth!?! You cannot just let a few BILLION YEARS float around like that, ... or can you? I guess in sci-fi theology, what's a few BILLION years?

In Christ, ... time is irrelevant, unless you are not yet a Believer, because then time is ‘very short', and every minute is extremely relevant.

According to the theory, this 'energy' created the innumerable galaxies, stars, planets, and all the life we see on this earth, including us debating humans, ... now I would NOT call that 'interference', .. but more like a Creator.
Does this mean that the Creator Father Time is no longer in the equation?

I didn't strike this out because it's actually a relevant question. But one that's been already answered. Welcome back to the beginning of the circle, would you like to go around again? How do you create time before time existed? Did you bother to think this through? I don't think you did. Yep, it means a creator to time doesn't exist. Time is thus infinite. Like it's been already stated, time is a consequence of existence.

May I ask if you 'crossed out' everything you didn't understand in the Bible also? Because that would explain your ignorance of it.

Oh boy, here we go again. The BB states that Time did not exist 'before' the BB, am I right?
Also that SPACE cannot exist without 'TIME', ... is that right? I mean how would you have distinguished events without 'space', right? (cannot have a width without length as you said)

It is YOUR BB theory that says that the Big Bang at the Gravitational singularity, that 'Planck Epoch' resided in a 'point in SPACE' where time and space was all confused within the pin-sized universe', right?

So, according to your explanation of the Big bang, ... the tiny pin sized universe that housed 'space and time' resided in a 'point in space' where it 'blew up' and expanded, so with the 'expansion' (Big bang) came space and time.

So according to the Big Bang theory, before space time existed, a 'pin-sized universe of energy' was IN a 'point in space' about to expand in??

And to add to your own confusion, you say that this universe is ALL THERE IS, meaning that when it was the size of a pinhead, it was already 'infinite'. In trying to avoiding the 'nothing' that the pin sized universe MUST have resided in, you’re theory creates an ‘imaginary point in space’.

You cannot have 'energy' in 'nothing'.
You cannot have a tiny 'something' in 'nothing, even as small as a grain of gravity'
Once you have 'something, even the tiniest of energy reacting upon itself, you already have 'distinguishing events, or 'time'.
You CANNOT have the Planck Epoch (big bang) happen in a 'point in space' where the pin-sized universe is getting ready (distinguishing events/time) to explode in.
Your theory fails.

3D
Also, the third dimension is an illusion as I have told you. Look at the sun, it looks only about 10 or so inches right? Well is it?
No, it is a little bigger than that. Looks can fool you my friend, this is why we must Know GOD, not see Him with our limited eyes. This means that GOD our Creator is beyond this physical universe.
The answer to all your unanswered questions is, … you got it,
GOD did it!

The 'god concept' is no longer needed, .. the 'time concept' is no longer needed, and now it's 'energies' turn at creation; "the big bang expands in a volume of energy from which itself is also made of."

Pantheists GOD concept will do just fine? After all, existence and it's rules are indeed needed to exist... And yep, the Observable universe came to be by "E".. Isn't energy amazing? It can do a lot of things! Like make snowflakes, and people to make snowmen and Jack Frost cartoons to boot!..

You're inability to differentiate between Pantheism and True-Christianity even after I explained it many times is your limitation, not my problem.

Cold can turn water into ice. God created the water, and the cold, ice happens because of the two reacting on each other. Cold will not turn cold into ice or snow, as ice will not turn ice into cold. Another words, ice is cold because of cold + water. Energy remains energy, until God uses it to power the things He Created with His Son.

I never said that something could be made of 'nothing'. God, the Eternal Energy created everything from that which we cannot see, and NOT nothing.

Pantheism Alert! .. And how did your GOD creation consciousness? Everything eh? Is it not existence that creates everything? .. Funny, it's more likely for everything else to exist than consciousness. You sure you understand complexity, or what is required to support a conscious state? No? ... Ok.. If consciousness is so simple, make me a conscious being, thing, entity, or object... Because I can sit here all day making unconscious things like snowmen, and that's pretty easy and simple. Shouldn't be a problem for you to make a conscious Jack Frost for us... I mean according to your logic, consciousness doesn't need cause.. You think it creates everything? I don't recall it creating the snowflakes landing on my roof top.. Maybe you can try again?

Our consciousness (with a little engineering and some elbow-grease) created trains, planes and automobiles, as it created Santa Claus, and now we see him 'everywhere'. WHAT WAS THE CAUSE? Well it was because we wanted to travel faster than the 3mph walking.
As for Santa, Pagan worshipers wanted to replace Jesus. But wait, ... you say you were a Christian, so Santa would have been a very big part of your today’s-Christian religion.

The snow flake is the result of Gods Creation. First, 'nature'. He engineered the earth, the atmosphere, air, water, the cold and the things that create heat, made them with His hands (as we make cars, planes, sand castles and snow men etc.) and just as cars were created to move, God created clouds to drop little water droplets and react with the cold air to create snow.
God created nature to do all the hard stuff, and left you with the fun stuff, like creating snow men, just as Ford created the hard stuff, the Automobile and left you and me with the fun stuff, driving the car. You still can't see it?

I know you can, and have right from the beginning. But I do appreciate the exercise my friend, iron sharpens iron you know. Only question is; which one of us is the sharpener, and which one is being sharpened?

If I have intellect,

Claiming you do while not displaying it isn't a very good game to play. :/

(You may go back to your station now Spock! sorry, but I just imagined Spock getting caught by Capt Kirk hiding and playing with a kitten,...

but seriously, ... if you believe that we are no more than energy reacting on itself, then the kitten is no more then our sun, energy reacting upon energy. I mean when our sun turns to a red-giant, would it be ‘logical’ for you to go and pet it; "Here kitty-kitty, nice kitty!" Another words, it is illogical for matter to pet matter, .. isn’t it? Logic is the reason Vulcan’s do not show emotion.
If everything is quantum energy revealed only in the physical body/universe we see, then please explain ‘sense of humor, laughter, faith, anger, dreams, plans for the future, sadness and joy?’ Once you defined that, why don’t you put that in your ‘Collider’ and smash it into a wall and see what you get?

then it’s one-sided.

Nope, existence is pretty much every side regardless if said side it fallacious or not. The only universal side is existence itself. Do you deny this truth?

Existence is universal, that is why you can make up as many different fallacious theories of where and how it came about. Looking only at our physical universe (what we see) it is logical that existence has to have a cause, and there has to be a conscious being that caused it.

When you take GOD out of the equasion as a creator, you still have to replace Him with a ‘cause’, and in your case you pick ‘energy’. You say ‘energy created energy’ and even admit that energy always existed (as the Bible explains God IS).
If we look only at energy at the quantum level, it is very impersonal. It could never on its own create meaning or anything for a ‘purpose’, and assign strict laws to govern all the elements, all the atoms in this entire universe as we observe in the ‘LAWS of physics’.

Chaos remains chaos, and if you consider ‘chance’ as a creating element, then a tornado going through a junk yard creating a brand new 747 Jet, or some new cars would be very common. Heck, ground beef should react on itself and re-create cows or some other life forms. If you say big-bangs are as common as lightning out at sea, then why can’t you admit that according to ‘chance’ this should be a possibility far more common than the possibility of your many big-bangs? We don’t see that ever happening, do we?
Again… GOD IS the answer.

End part 1

[arian]

Part 2

You know well I did not call you a God hater, you are my friend. It is that God-hating science

I can't be a GOD hater since I make no assumptions on the character of anything anyone might like to worship as a GOD. There may be a scientist being out there who induced a big bang either on purpose or by accident. However, GOD in such a concept is a matter of opinion. I don't hate the Pantheist GOD either. It is after all the top of the totem pole when it comes to GOD's.. But again that is a matter of opinion. And science can't hate GOD's, it doesn't even address the issue :/ Science studies existence to better understand it.. How is that hating?

Your imagined scientist creating a big-bang either on purpose or by accident would be correct by the sci-fi big bang theory. It is how you imagine the tiny pin-sized universe to be at the Planck epoch; ‘in a point in space’. The scientist resides in spacetime, creates a big-bang and there you have your ‘bubble within a bubble within a bubble.’ A very big question still remains, … “where does the FIRST bubble residing IN?�

You see, the Bible explains this, for GOD our Creator IS, as He said to Moses, “I Am�, thus all our questions to physics, to mechanics are answered along to our ‘none-physical’ consciousness. Consciousness is the first step to creation, now all we need is the material to create it, and the ‘energy’ to make it work. God again is the answer to all that, for in Him we live, think and have our existance;

1 Cor 11:12
12 For as woman was made from man, in the same way man is born of woman; and it is God who brings everything into existence.
TEV

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ died for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20 These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat.
TEV

1 Peter 4:6
6 That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.
TEV

Rev 4:11
11 "Our Lord and God! You are worthy
to receive glory, honor, and power.
For you created all things,
and by your will they were given existence and life."
TEV

Studying existence is not hating, enjoying existence is not hating, but saying the Creator did not make it is hate, especially knowing how kind and gentle our God is.
Driving a Ford Mustang is not hating, changing to improve the car is not hating, ... but ripping it apart and then saying it evolved from energy and that Ford had nothing to do with it, is IMO, hate my dear friend.

you are my friend.

I don't mind being your friend either since I don't use division of ideology and religious beliefs as a judgement tool for friendship. Though I think our relationship here is a challenge each other relationship because I think we both like the challenge.

And neither do I believe in using it as a judgement tool. I would like nothing more that to meat everyone I have debated on this forum, I have posted my real name and address many times, but neither Christian nor atheist has once taken me up on the offer.

I would sure like to meet you my friend, I am not intimidating in person, kids smile at me wherever I go. I look more like papa-Smurf, and feel like one that was run over by a car.
Take me up on it? Nice weather here in Phoenix.

Look at North Korea my friend, now there is a country without emotion.

I'm a hardcore secularist. Atheist states are as bad as theocracies..

I agree, so taking GOD out of the equation did not give us any satisfactory answers has it? It only created a life of hell on earth. I know, I lived in an atheist country.

We have a lot in common; I would hate to see this country governed by some religion. Man has suffered enough from religion throughout the centuries. I am a true believer in Jesus Christ and what He had to offer, pure unselfish love; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and not just in some church building on Sunday! (I don't belong to any religion, nor go to any church) where they teach you to; "go and make disciples in all the nations" and later send their sons and daughters to kill those very converts ‘in all those nations’. Christians killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims, while Satan is laughing his butt off.

Hence, it's commonsense to know that the world is secular, and polytheistic. Peace comes by tolerance and co-existence and knowing that a secular system is the best possible system there can be... It's irrelevant if people realize the fact of what reality is or not in terms of science. And it's scientifically clear that human nature is relative in beliefs for various and many reasons. And that is where theists and non-theists need to work together. Extremists on any side is a bad thing.

I agree my friend, “It's irrelevant if people realize the fact of what reality is or not in terms of science�. The problem is that spiritual plain, where thoughts are being influenced one way, then another. This is where the powers and principalities come into play, and the decisions made that influences our physical reality.

The Nazi regime and Hitler was a recent good example of this. What do we understand in “working together�? Your understanding could be very different than mine, … do you agree?
The Nazis wanted good for all mankind, a perfect world without the sick, the maimed, where neither rich or poor would exist, but everyone to share everything, a perfect Utopia. So to make this dream happen, they needed to do some major cleansing on this earth. First, the greedy little money mongers like the Jews, the Gipsy’s, the mentally ill, the contracting skin colors (anything other than white) the sick, the lame and the old all had to be removed from society. If you looked like the Jesus paintings (blond, blue eyed), you were in luck. Girls would spread their legs to have your baby. If not, … well you know the story.

We are once again facing this human, this physical version of ‘cleansing the earth’ of all the clutter, it is under the cause; “One World Order�. It seems nice, as did Communism, only the ‘absolute good, the absolute truth’ is left out. “There is NO absolute truth� they say (ignoring the Bible, Gods Word) “but we must come up with our own version of ‘truth’ based on purely physical standards, for the physical is all there is!� (Can you hear Satan laughing?)

With this kind of ‘Vulcan’ logic, the obviously ugly, the old, the sick and the crippled are to be exterminated, and quickly buried. Only the genetically perfect is to enjoy life on earth. When these perfect ones get old, or hurt where they become crippled, well there is ‘Renewal’ (see the movie Logan’s Run). Everyone gathers for that special event ‘Renewal’, for the horror of their fellow man being disintegrated or simply sacrificed on some alter is a joyous occasion, especially if a few of them come to their senses and decide to ‘run’. Now the hunt for the ‘Runner’ begins, and those that love hunting would understand the joy in this.

But where do these ideas come from, energy reacting on energy? I think not.
Here is a clue: “Look at the movies coming out today; Vampires, zombies, werewolves and witches, Wizards and Warlocks like the Harry Potter movies, Hellboy and all them books. Then there is all the PC games like ‘Grand theft Auto’, ‘Doom’, ‘Warcraft’ and hundreds of other demonic games and movies that are preparing the Unbelievers for this coming Final Battle called Armageddon. These are conflicting ideas to the truth found in the Bible. Conflicting as the BB evolution theory is to God creating the Universe and everything in it. Lies and deceptions, and because the unseen ideas are more real and powerful, it manifests itself in this physical Universe.

You don't understand that ‘atheism’ is just as big of a problem as ‘theism’. I would love to remove theism AND atheism from this world and let all men join with 'real science' to seek out and find the Creator. I have, as many others have. The Universe through science reveals more of the Power, the Love of our Heavenly Father GOD.

If you desire to start with 'energy', fine, let's start there. Let's see how Energy created this universe? Is there other sources of energy out there somewhere that created energy? Hey, maybe there is an Energy of all energies, where this (let's say) unknown Energy also possesses awareness? Wouldn't that be cool?

I mean look, ... you agree we evolved from some simple energy and became conscious beings, then why couldn't the Energy we came from also be conscious? I mean why not? Is there that possibility?

Imagine the possibilities? Imagine OUR consciousness unite with His (or its, or hers, if you wish) I don't care where we start, and what you call this energy, and I don't think your present understanding to be; He, she or It minds either, as long as we unite outside of religions on one mind, one plan to find the TRUTH, ... wouldn't that be a worthy goal for man to unite on?

Oh, ... and none of that "Imagine all the people, … living for today," garbage, for living for today" is a selfish notion. Living for OTHERS is where it’s at. Pushing for TOMORROW, for a better tomorrow starts today. If I only lived for today, I would never have learned to walk, ... right? Every moment I push forward to the future, this way I include the entire human race.

This is my understanding of GOD, not some theistic god or gods made up by man, carved out of some trees, each with their own ideas of worship and their own scare techniques scaring their worshipers, but the GOD of our very existence that includes all of us.

for those debating the BB theory of evolution, showing emotion would be weird to say the least.

They do, but they also take their work very seriously.. You can't assume that scientists are all emotionally dead. The fact is that they are not. They like to enjoy life as much as you do. They love their families as much as you love yours. Yes we are energy beings.. But the full physical experience of that is being conscious energy beings. This does not make us worth less, it makes us real! Being made of energy is being made of something that has actual value. And even after death, regardless of what you believe, we will always have value simply because energy can neither be creator or destroyed. We will always belong to existence, and be of existence eternally.. Whether you believe you transcend consciously, or believe you may one day be that twinkling star in the sky that gives birth to new life. You, I, and everyone will always have purpose and value.

Yes we have value, ... that is why I would never kill another human being. Please tell me what is the difference between you calling your Creator Energy, and being of that same energy, and me calling that Energy GOD and me being created in His Image?

The Bible is NOT creating the mess we have on this earth with religion, but the opposite. God wants us to destroy religion, all those indoctrinations whether scientific, or religious. Mother Teresa was a good person who helped a lot of poor people, but she also worshipped her Church and the Pope religiously. She prayed to her idols, and taught others to do the same.

GOD stopped the religious lunatic King that started to build the Tower of Babel, for he wanted men to worship some man made idea, a One World Religion that would have robbed everyone of their identity, their person, their being, their soul and their freedom.

Don't you see man wants to worship anything and everything except the One they should, the One who wants nothing of us, only acknowledgement, so we won't forget who makes the rain fall. Either they worship a 'Day' like the 'Sabbath', or a 'name' like the god they invent and named 'Jehovah' or 'Mormo' as god, or a man like 'Joseph Smith, .. Jim Jones, the wacko-Waco, or whatever and whoever as long as it's not the ONE, the nameless who cares less of human worship (deeds), but seeks only those that worship Him in truth which can be achieved by our spirit.

What is true worship? Here, it's: "Love one another as I have loved you." He makes the sun rise on the good and on the evil, and the rain too. Some areas more and others less, but enough for all men many times over, as long as we SHARE!"

This is why I said that your responses sound like they come from a tree, then a human.

Do you know why we respond like this? It's to keep the discussion honest. I will walk away from this and play with my cat shimmy for about an hour. She's adorable and a ball of fun So even though it seems cold to say that we are energy beings made of atoms, and atoms made of energy ect... It's actually pretty damn amazing.. And I think on the scale of amazing to great for creation, or to be owned by any one being. Existence is amazing! And so are we!

Again I agree with you. If you only give me a chance to explain to you about this Energy, you would see that we're on the same page my friend.
An ‘Enemy’ has separated us, and if you believe that lies do exist, then this being is the ‘Father of all Lies’.

Do you actually believe you are NOT 'owned'? You are a victim and a slave as everyone on this earth. And I agree that to be a slave to some 'man made' religion is truly hell ( I have been there), but that is NOT our GOD. Look around you, especially through science and you will see that God serves US, because He loves us. He created us and takes full responsibility for our well being. Don't you have kids? Well, it’s the same thing. Our instinct comes from our Creator to love and care for our children.

There is no real physical freedom; freedom is when we are ‘content’, when we are free to express our thought, our ideas. This is the ‘freedom’ that Satan is after, to rob us from knowing the truth. This is why you act like a Vulcan in our debates. Not just you, but other atheists here as well. I know they have a sense of humor, but when I make a joke, they react like computers, “That-was-illogical-please-restate-your-comment-honestly!� Come on, … can’t you see that reality as the human mind perceives it is the joke? When you drive on the highway, does the road ahead of you ‘really’ narrows to a point? Is the sun really 10 inches in diameter?
Wake up my friend, before it’s too late.

So because you can’t or because you don’t understand the Spiritual (unseen) realm you think it’s a magical place?

That specifically deals with immateriality.. Which is the same thing as saying a place made of nothing. Lacking substance is lacking value. And it's pretty difficult to see things in 3D in a realm that doesn't have any dimensional value or electromagnetism. There is a lot wrong with the concept, and I think you nailed it when you said "unseen realm"..

Why limit your being to this material world? You said we are 'energy', and we came from this energy before this material world (matter) even existed, remember?
In your BB theory, could we see this energy at the Planck epoch?

The ‘Nothing’ exists and thank God it remains nothing, so we have nothing to worry about. It is these sci-fi scientists that invent those scary ideas of black holes sucking the entire galaxy into a dark abyss. The sun turning into a red-giant and blowing up burning us all into hell, Solar Flares wiping us out, Meteors crashing and destroying the earth, … I could go on and on. So who is talking about hell now? These are the same minds that invented all the THEISTIC gods.

Look at a perfectly white dice, and put it in a room that is the same white color, with even light hitting the dice from every side. We would only see the black dots, right?

I can draw a dice on a piece of paper and give it that 3D effect, like today’s 3D movies.

But draw a cube on a white sheet of paper without the shade that defines the inner sides, you know, ... just the outline. that is how the cube really looks like without the 3D illusion. The sun is 1,392,000 km in dia. not the 10 inches we see. There is a 1,392,000 km dia. of sun ray that is going past us, only about 12,700 km dia. hits us. So looking at the sun during a solar eclipse, we have a 108 times the size of the earth light still passing all around our planet. That is not the reality we see, it is an illusion, a given handicap so this limited mind could translate ‘reality’.

Maybe a more plausible argument would be transcending into a different physical dimension / reality that doesn't violate plausibility. I can even give you an example to think about:

A child born a complete mute unable to sense this world lays on the bed. We can't see into this child's mind / world (currently speaking). And the child can't see or interact with ours either even though this child is literally apart of this world in every physical and literal way... So what if this child imagines it's own existence within its own world in relation to the brief information it has obtain during the stages of it's development in the woumb, before it was born a mute due to complications... This child wouldn't even know it had a mother, or was even born....
But what happens if this child dies in its imagined world and wakes up? What would it think of the reality, that being ours, in relation to the one it's known till it's imagined death? .. And what does that say to our own state of existence and the possibility of transcending reality? Well in this case it wouldn't violate any laws of existence, or physical laws for that matter. It wouldn't violate conservation of energy either. So that is food for thought for you.

That would be true if we were only made of energy. Blind, deaf and dumb, we are still spiritual beings residing in this tent, this physical body. The child know the mother because it can ‘feel being loved’. This is what I am trying to explain to you, for we are more than this physical realm. Our spirit knows this universe and our body and existence as a whole, only God put us in this limited body for now, and we interpret everything within set limits, as I explained.
Remember Helen Keller?

Helen Adams Keller (June 27, 1880 – June 1, 1968) was an American author, political activist, and lecturer. She was the first deaf-blind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree.[1][2] The story of how Keller's teacher, Anne Sullivan, broke through the isolation imposed by a near complete lack of language, allowing the girl to blossom as she learned to communicate, has become widely known through the dramatic depictions of the play and film The Miracle Worker.

A prolific author, Keller was well-traveled, and was outspoken in her opposition to war. A member of the Socialist Party of America and the Wobblies, she campaigned for women's suffrage, workers' rights, and socialism, as well as many other leftist causes

If we were energy only, THAT my friend you would undeniable have to call a 'miracle', defying all logic and most of the physical laws.

‘You’ my friend are NOT what you see in the mirror. What you see is a body made of dust, the dirt we walk on. It is what GOD placed into this physical body, this tent, this temple that is the real thing. You are a spiritual being, a living soul that resides in a limited body of dust. This body can house you, and many evil spirits, a whole legion of them:

Mark 5:8-10
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
KJV

Or you can ‘clean house’ and cast them evil spirits out and call upon the Spirit of God, and let Jesus come to stay with you. But if you enjoy lies like the Big bang Evolution theory, then you are really entertaining these wicked spirits in the body God made you responsible for. Many people ‘clean house’ and leave one religion, only to jump into another, ‘and the last state of that man is worse than the first’;

Luke 11:24-26
"When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first."
NKJV

This might even give you a good idea of separation of time lines... All time lines exist in existence at the same time.. But it's a matter of shifting from one to the other. All people live their lives according to their own activities ect. Hence, there are literally billions of time lines that also share a universal one since they all exist at the same time. The only difference is they progress differently from one another, or are relative to each other. This is how time works on a basic level that doesn't need go into particle dilation to where it can get more complicated ect.

That explains only the 'moment', not past and the future time, which as I explained before, exists within GOD, and our spiritual self. But for now, we are stuck in this tent, ... except, on special occasions our God allows us to step out a bit.

Helen Keller spirit, her soul knew who she was and where she was. It was her physical senses that were incomplete which her spiritual self completed for her. The physical limitation didn’t stop her from becoming a big part of our society, even an accomplished author and an advocate for many causes. She was still complete I'd say, even more than many who can hear, speak and see.
This is what we are to wake up to, a walk according to our spirit, and not let our spirit be guided by the pleasures of the flesh, which comes by feel, seeing, touching and so on. We are given these senses to enjoy this physical realm with, that was the whole idea of this physical creation, but we cannot let it take over our soul, where we forget who we are, spiritual living beings residing in a physical body for a time.

This is a TEST. For the next ‘physical lifetime’ you will be conducting a test, and if you look at the world today, there IS a Real Emergency! And we are taught that in case of a real emergency, go to your Bible and follow its instructions.

And that those who do understand this Spiritual realm, don’t use their brains?

I don't think they really thought it through... If they got rid of immateriality in their beliefs system, it might be better argument. However, the Abrihamic religions specifically state immateriality. And that is a problem. :/

Not if you understand the “Meaning of Life� as described in the Bible, … I explained above. You have to be ‘Born Again� my friend, “Born not of flesh (you already have that) but of the Spirit�

I understand that in the Spiritual realm the 3D illusion will be gone, and “we will see everything as it really IS� which is in all dimensions.

This would require you to increase in dimensional complexity. Like having a 11 dimensional brain with 11 dimensional sensory organs ect.. Basically you are speaking about evolving to higher beings.

YES, you got it!

1 Cor 15:52-55
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"
NKJV

‘Nothing’ is nothing

= nonexistence.. Nothing isn't anything at all. Your logic fails because you are attempting to place a positive value greater than literal nothing on nothing. Nothing in the literal context is equal to non-existence. It does not exist.

What is the value of ZERO? It is zero/nothing, … and there it is, being exactly what it was created to be, zero, or nothing. If you move zero to the right, you get more of something, if to the left, you get less of something. Others have already explained this to you, I believe in the example of ‘debt’, just as in the apples example. My water in the upside down glass is actually proof of the existence of nothing.

How could I argue about the existence of nothing if I didn’t possess a good solid concept of it?
I have over and over defined all its characteristics;

Feel
Taste
Smell
Color
and Consistency between ‘nothing’ and ‘something’.