I'm almost too intimidated to even start a post. I've been through a ton of threads here and for a layperson like me I have to tell you; it's quite a grind. Yeesh, I am smarter than your average bear and a little more informed than your typical churchgoer... but you guys in this forum are clearly many, many levels beyond me. I will probably never attain your depth of knowledge in my lifetime.
So anyway when I start a post you can pretty much count on it being really down to Earth ... maybe even too much so. And I apologize ahead of time for that but chalk it up to ignorance. When it comes to the actual Greek terminology and conjugating verbs in Aramaic... all I can do is nod my head and say, *ahem* "yes! what he said!" if the room falls silent and someone looks at me.
So let me start this simple, perhaps laughable, little subject I enjoy thinking about. The sheer depth of symbolism God uses to get a message across.
I believe there are some uses of symbolism that didn't reveal themselves then, nor have they been revealed in full and won't until the time when Christ returns.
Take for just one example, event of the final "plague" -- the tragedy visited upon Pharaoh and Egypt where the Angel of Death slayed every first born son--man and animal--of every household in Egypt that didn't bear the symbol of blood on the front door.
If we take it all in there are inescapable references to Christ, the shedding of His blood, etc. When a Christians says they are saved, it is, IMHO whether they know it or not, a direct reference to this event in Egypt (yet in a future sense).
Even looking at the position of the blood on the Hebrew doors has me thinking. Blood on each side of the door frame and blood underneath the door which in those days was collected in a bowl when animals were slain. So you have the blood to each side and then below... superimpose a Cross and Jesus' blood was left on it in the same positions. That might be taking it too far but knowing a little about the nature of God, it probably isn't taking it far enough.
I was in a bible study one time and the subject for study was the plagues of Egypt and the Exodus. When it struck me that that (as mentioned above) the visitation of the Angel of Death and the blood of the families' most unblemished lamb was an obvious reference to the coming Christ and His saving us from death... one of the ladies in the bible study was amazed, like a lightbulb turned on in her head. She said that her husband was a Jew and she couldn't wait to get home and show him how obvious it was that this was a reference to the coming Messiah and His death on the cross.
Anyway -- elementary to most if not all of you but I really get excited when I think of the layers upon layers of symbols God uses and how they span across great lengths of time.
Related is an example of just how much time God can let go by before something is revealed; a fine example being Methuselah whose name loosely translated means "when he dies, judgment." When he died at the age of 969 years, the floods came. A CENTURY passed before that prophecy was fulfilled.
And on and on. I've taken too much of your time with my laytalk and elementary musings but hey, this is the kind of stuff I have to offer. Hopefully some folks here will enjoy taking a break from the grind and sip a cup of coffee with me and discuss.
I look forward to your replies!
All you deviants out there... remember weinergate. It eventually comes back around. You will be outed.
I think that the symbolism in the bible is a good topic. I agree of course that the Passover lamb symbolized Jesus and the blood his sacrifice so think you are spot on on that. I don't happen to believe Jesus died on a cross so I do think we can go a little too far looking for symbolic meaning in every detail but since all things written were pointing to Christ in some way, it seems reasonable to look for the meaning behind the ceremonies and events in the Hebrew bible.
The reference to the Egptions children dieing and Christs blood on the posts represented the Egptions fullness in sin and Christs redemption from sin. See it was prophiced centuries before that the Egyptians were to perciqute the Israelites for 400 yrs. God foreknew that their hearts were to reach fullness in sin. God being slow to anger, bountiful in mercy, waited till the Egyptians themselves choose to have sin totally consume them. He never wanted them to but he knew that they would. What else could he do when he i pure love. To control someone is not love. So when the first born died, they represented sin, and Christ represented the lamb that covered the Israelites sins, turning Gods anger from them.
So now as Christians we are saved from Gods judgement of sin. Now this is where people may say that, "well keep on sinning we are all saved." We are saved and sanctified but we are also in the process of sanctification.
Also their is the judgement at the Rema seat when Christians are taken to be judged by the consuming fire. It say's that we will be judged by our works. Not that we work to make God happy, but what do we do with the blessings that God gave us, things like money, our car, Godly wisdom, compassion and so forth. This works is a matter of heart in action and with God. God has blessed me in so many ways, so i want to bless others. And all of this will determine whether we become jewels, or straw in the consuming fire. Also in regards to sin we should never hold Jesus in contemp. I wonder what judgment that would bring.
Why this judgment reasons depends on what scholarly view that you want to take. I like the one, which seems to be more biblically correct is the banquet and the bride. Not all get to come to the banquet and not all get to be the bride. This also relates to the remnant.
People like to think that the Church is the Bride but one only needs to look at revelations and the twelve Churchs. To me the Church is not the source of salvation but the receiver of salvation and proclaimer of salvation. The Church is a product of grace and a celebrant of grace. The church is a sign and witness of grace, and is an agent in the Spirits application of grace, but we are not the causes of grace. We do not contribute to the building of the Kingdom, but we hasten its coming through prayer.
[Faith Seeking Understanding wrote]......The reference to the Egptions children dieing and Christs blood on the posts represented the Egptions fullness in sin and Christs redemption from sin. See it was prophiced centuries before that the Egyptians were to perciqute the Israelites for 400 yrs. God foreknew that their hearts were to reach fullness in sin. God being slow to anger, bountiful in mercy, waited till the Egyptians themselves choose to have sin totally consume them. He never wanted them to but he knew that they would. What else could he do when he i pure love. To control someone is not love. So when the first born died, they represented sin, and Christ represented the lamb that covered the Israelites sins, turning Gods anger from them.
Why did, God find it necessary to send Joseph of the line of Shem into the land of firstborn.
When Noah turned 500, he began his family, Ham was his firstborn. Shem, of who we are told in Genesis 11: 10; was 100, two years after the flood, when Noah was 602, was born when Noah was 502, and Genesis 10: 21; reveals that Shem is the older brother of Japheth.
The fact that this is the order of the births of Noah’s sons is reinforced in the Book of Jubilees chapter 8: where it’s written that Noah divided the land between his three sons. Ham received the land of Africa to the south. Shem received the land from the Nile Delta north to Lebanon and east to India; while Japheth received the land north of Lebanon including the five great islands. It goes on to say, “But the land of Japheth is cold, and the land of Ham is hot, but the land of Shem is neither hot nor cold, but is of a blended hot and cold.
Surely, the lord is here revealing that Shem is the middle son. Ham. (The black). Japheth, (The white). Shem, (The brown.
Galatians 4: 29; “Yet, at that time (Ishmael) the child who was born of the flesh, persecuted him (Isaac) who was born according to the promise of God and the workings of the Holy spirit.
There will be those who will judge the actions of Abraham’s obedience to his indwelling spirit as being evil.
Those who will judge the indwelling Spirit in man, who had seen the end result of the actions of mankind, will, in their judgment of our indwelling spirit, pass judgment on themselves.
Isaac is a prototype of Jesus, and he too was born of God’s promise according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, who had the King of Egypt/Ham take Sarai as his wife, and the two became one.
Anyone who breeds pedigrees will know that if their pedigree bitch is impregnated by a mongrel and semen is introduced into the bitch, whether or not conception occurs with that mating, any future offspring from that bitch, even from a male pedigree dog of the same breed as the bitch, will carry certain genetic characteristics of the mongrel, for the two had become one.
If the breed of the bitch is known for it passivity and the semen that she had received into her body, from which mating she did not conceive, was from an aggressive American pit bull, then any future pups of hers may inherit that aggressiveness. It was for this very reason that Mary had to remain a pure virgin until she was impregnated by the man chosen by the Holy Spirit, to be the biological father of Jesus.
Now let God’s word reveal to you, how the birth of the child of God’s promise (Isaac) was brought to fruition, according to the workings of the Holy Spirit.
The reason why God sent the descendants of Shem into the land of Ham/Egypt, the first born son of Noah, was because of what Canaan the youngest descentant of Noah had done to him while he lay naked in his tent in a drunken stupor; Genesis 9: 24; When Noah sobered up and learned what his youngest ben/descendant had done to him, he cursed Canaan the son of Ham, and blessed his second son Shem, to who he then bestowed the blessing of first born, declaring that the descendants of Ham the firstborn, would be the slaves to Shem’s descendants.
The Holy spirit, then had to transfre the spirit of first born from the body descended from Ham, to the body descended from Shem.
Because of a severe drought, Abraham was moved by the Holy Spirit to travell down into the land of Egypt/Ham, where he told everyone that the 65 to 70 year old Sarai was his sister, which she was, or rather his half-sister, the King saw the beautiful one from the north and took her as his wife.
After the poor deceived king was hit with many plagues and diseases and realised what the cause of his punishment was, he called Abraham to him, who he had treated so well while Sarai had lived with him as his wife, giving to Abram gifts of flocks of sheep and goats, cattle, donkeys, slaves and camels etc, and the King said to Abraham, “What have you done to me, why did you say she was your sister and let me take her as my WIFE, here is your wife take her and get out.
He then gave orders to his men, so they took Abraham and put him out of the country together with his wife and everything he owned, which included the gifts of flocks of sheep and goats, cattle, donkeys slaves and camels etc that the poor deceived king had bestowed on Abram while the king was living with Sarai as husband and wife.
Then when the 90 year old Sarai, who, apparently had been unable to ever carry a pregnancy to its full term, was told by the angel that she would become pregnant by Abraham, the Holy Spirit moved Abraham to travel down south to Mamre, which was in the territory of Abimelech, where again Abraham told Sarah to say that she was his sister, which in fact she was, as she was the biologic daughter of Abraham’s biological father, but not of his mother.
Abimelech believed that by taking the aged sister of the wealthiest man in the country, he might share in that wealth. After Sarah had been placed in the harem of Abimelech, the Holy Spirit of God then caused all the pregnant women in the Harem to miscarry and made it impossible for any to fall pregnant. Undoubtedly the greatest medical minds in that country at that time, would have been called in to administer to all the women in the harem, including Sarah, any plant/drugs that were known to increase fertility and inhibit natural abortions.
Abimelech who, unlike the King of Egypt, had not touched Sarah, was then warned in a dream of the dire consequences if he did not return Sarah to Abraham, which he did the very next morning after the dream, with sheep, cattle and slaves and 1000 pieces of silver as proof to all that Sarah was innocent of any wrong doing.
Sarah then became pregnant to her half brother Abraham, according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, and Isaac the biological son of Abraham and his half-sister, was born with certain characteristics of the King of Egypt who was a descendant of Ham the first born of Noah.
The descendants of Shem the second born, were then sent into the land of first born, where, for two hundreds and twenty five years, or 430, which we'll discuss later, they interbred with the descendants of Ham, til God destroyed every first born descendant of Ham in that country, who were not of the genetic line of Shem, and it was then that Our Lord God and saviour, called his son/Israel, in which nation was the spirit of the first born, out of Egypt.
Galatians 3: 17; "What I mean, is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The law that was given 430 year later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God's Promise.
Exodus 12: 40; The Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years. On the day the four hundred and thirty years ended, all of the tribes of God's people left Egypt.
There were 430 years from when God had first made his covenant with Abraham when he was 85 years old. 15 years later Issac was born, 60 years later Jacob was born, and Jacob was 130, when he took his family into Egypt, 15+60+130= 205, 430-205=225.
I am not going to enter into a debate on this subject, as there is ample evidence to prove one way or the other, whether Paul was correct in stating that the period of time between when God first made his covenant with Abraham until the law was given through Moses, is correct, or wheter exodus 12: 40; which states that Israel was in Egypt for 430 years to the very day is correct.
Knowing that Jochebed, is the daughter of Levi to an Egyptian princess, who married her nephew, Aram the son of her half brother, "Korath" who was a young man when Jacob moved into Egypt, and she, Jochebed, was the supposed mother of that Miriam, Aaron and Moses, of the exodus story, and Moses was 80, when he left Egypt. Then how old was Jochebed the daughter of Levi, when she gave birth to Moses.
Levi was 28 when he took Melcha as his wife, 35 when Korath was born and 48 when he went into Egypt, he was 94 when his grandsom Amram/Ambram married his daughter Jochebed, who were both born on the same day, which was when Levi was 64. Levi was 8 years older than his younger brother Joseph, and was 118 when Joseph died at the age of 110.
Even if the Israelites were only in Egypt for 225 years according to Paul's reckoning, according to this infomation, Levi was 48 when he came into Egypt and 16 years later at the age of 64, the parents of Moses were born, and they were 30 years old when they were Married, in the 94th year of the life of Levi. This means that they were born in the 16th year and married in the 46th year of Israel's sujourn in Egpyt and Moses their son was 80 when the Israelites left Egypt.
Taking the age of Moses "80" and the age of his supposed parents when they were born in the 16th year of Israel's sujourn in Egypt, 80+16=96, and subtracting that from the 225 years that Paul would have you believe that the Israelites were in Egypt, 225-96=129, the age that the parents of Moses would had to have been when Moses was born.
If on the other hand, the Israelites had been in Egypt for 430 years, the supposed parents of Moses, "Jochebed and Ambram" would have to have been 334, when Moses was born. I had to look for and find another Miriam, Aaron and Moses who were the characters of the Exodus.
Joseph was about 48 when he was united with his Father and brothers, and 110 when he died 62 years later. it was long after the death of Joseph, that another King, who didn't even remember who Joseph was, took controll of the northern delta area of Egypt, and it was He who demanded that all the male children of the Israelites, were to be exposed to the crocadiles of the Nile River, but why take away the fun of self discovery from those who read this sectiom of the forum?
JehovahsWitness wrote:I think that the symbolism in the bible is a good topic. I agree of course that the Passover lamb symbolized Jesus and the blood his sacrifice so think you are spot on on that. I don't happen to believe Jesus died on a cross so I do think we can go a little too far looking for symbolic meaning in every detail but since all things written were pointing to Christ in some way, it seems reasonable to look for the meaning behind the ceremonies and events in the Hebrew bible.
Once the symbolism of a teaching is revealed, we can do away with that teaching.
No more do we have to feed only from the tables prepared by the followers of Moses, we are now allowed to eat of the tables that have been prepared by all the diverse bodies of belief.
Nothing that we eat can harm us, we can now harvest from fields in which we did'nt sow and in which we have never laboured. We can enjoy the products that have been prepared for the son’s of man, which are set out on the tables of all the different scientific, philosophic and religious, bodies of belief, for upon each table, our spirit will find something that we need in the evolution/growth of our mind/spirit.
Once the reality of the Sabbath was revealed, we were no longer under the law that demanded that it be kept on one particular special day of the week, as long as we keep one day in seven to rest and spend quality time with our family and friends. Let no man judge you because of the day you keep to rest and relax with your family and friends.
The revelation of the truth of the water baptism which is symbolic of the baptismal waters in which body, Adam the Godhead was submerged in those waters and his successor Enoch arose. Enoch, whose life was ransomed by the righteous blood of Abel, was the only exception of the body of Adam to have ascended to the very heights of heaven to become the Great and glorious simulacrum, which is the blueprint of the shining ones, who will dwell on earth among mankind, and which is also the sacrificial lamb of God, who dies in the process of involution, releasing from the least to the greatest, the spirits from which he was created, of which spirits, the MAN Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, and the least in the great simulacrum which Enoch had become.
And Jesus, the chosen successor to Enoch the first Melchizedek, was filled with the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, as he rose from the baptismal waters, and the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am well pleased, THIS DAY I have begotten thee�.
In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.�) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,� vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine.
All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.� Wherea the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.�
We must keep in mind that symbols are subjective, when we interpret them we only see what we wish to. So then symbols themselves cannot be determined by our own interpretations, but by what the original writers/cultural context had in mind.
By assuming Christianity to be true, you are imposing your beliefs upon the Torah. The Torah happens to be a Jewish book, not a Christian one. If a Jew saw what you have just said, they would most likely argue their perspective. Why? Both of you believe your religions are true, therefore you will interpret symbols in your holy books based upon your beliefs.
Unfortunately it has to come down to logic and evidence. Unless you can show that your religion has more evidence supporting it, and it is more logical. You cannot impose your symbolism upon another religious system. Or you could simply find an objective interpretation of the blood on the door frame. Which would be determined by Jewish culture. As that is its origin. Yes, you may say it came from God, but you must still prove your religion to be more probable than to impose symbolism upon another religion's holy book.
This sub-forum may say that we assume the bible to be true, but unfortunately it is a BIBLE study, not a New Testament study...
