Is paganism on the rise in the West?

[Wootah]

Hi all,

I feel paganism is on the rise in the West. This would be in line with my expectation that, without a Christian foundation, superstition is the natural recourse for creatures such as us that are made to worship. If you don't worship God you will worship something.

Do any atheists find this trend towards superstition and paganism disturbing?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andr ... _bolivian/

The UN considering a rock as living. Surely that is just old school paganism.

[Too Few Lions]

I am enjoying this thread, it is amusing from 'Chase 200 MPH', who seems to be ignoring this thread now, to 'Too Few Lions' who posts nothing about themselves, but immediately, puts on a post that is poorly thought out.

just joined, am I supposed to write a bio or something? As for the poorly thought out bit, that's your opinion, and I think you're mistaken.

Is Pagan more superstitious than Christianity, pagan is not a religion it is a blanket term for religions outside of the Abrahamic faiths, There are so many religions under that umbrella term, that to say in comparison to Christianity it is not more superstitious is totally irrational.

The OP is from a Christian claiming that 'paganism' is somehow superstition whereas Christianity is not. I'm an atheist and I don't see Christianity as being any less superstitious than any other religion. The OP used the blanket term paganism, as I said in my first post, I fail to see the supposed divide between Christianity and the other religions Christians like to call 'pagan'.

I agree with you that it is a poor term to cover many different religious traditions, and not one I personally would have chosen to use. But the OP is also refering to paganism as it would be found in the west, and I see nothing more superstitious than Christian beliefs in anything I've encountered that would call itself or generally be considered 'pagan' in the west.

Atheism does in my opinion have at least a standpoint that is for a free mind, but the underlying problem for me is the adherents of this faith in no God or God's is simply this, in my experience most are former religious people who approach Atheism as a rebellion of there religious upbringing, most not all, but it is a common theme.

I think that's true for some atheists, but I've never been religious or believed in any gods, and there are also plenty of other atheists like me. Most of the people I know have never believed in any deities, except possibly when they were very young and still also believed in Santa, the tooth fairy and the like...

I think you're wrong to say most atheists are rebelling against a religious upbringing, but I'm sure that plenty are.

The OP asked if atheists found a rise in 'paganism' and 'superstition' disturbing. I was merely pointing out that as an atheist I don't have a problem with the religions the OP terms as 'pagan' and I don't consider them any more superstitious than Christianity. Indeed I prefer them because historically they have been far more tolerant and life-affirming forms of religion.

[Gunnarr]

Thank you for responding. I think it is always polite to post an introduction as it gives a clearer picture of who you are, I did one on this forum, and on forums where I moderate I ask for one.

It was a poorly worded question in my opinion, but was not involved in the thread from the beginning, you adopted the same phraseology, and on that I gave comment.

I stated "in my experience most are former religious people who approach Atheism as a rebellion of there religious upbringing, most not all, but it is a common theme."

You then wrote "I think you're wrong to say most atheists are rebelling against a religious upbringing".

I did not say most I said in my experience. It may seem trivial but it can by inference give the look of a uninformed antagonistic opinion rather than just my experience.

You have twice said historically, what reference's are you using for the evidence?

Atheist's in my opinion are closer to my own faith than say mainstream Christianity, no shock there,. I would also go on to state that you are closer to my Religiosity than Wicca Druidism et al

Looking forward to your response

[Too Few Lions]

Cool, I'll try and post a little intro to myself on the forum today. Is there a thread for posting intros?

Obviously you've tended to encounter a different sort of atheist than I have, but that's fair enough, it's just different experiences. A lot of us have thankfully never had a Christian upbringing. Plus I also think a lot of atheists who were brought up Christians became atheists when they realised that the Christian religion is mainly built on mythology, or they realised that the universe can be explained through science, and that they could quite happily live without that god and religion. I have met very few that are angry with or rebelling against a religion / god that is now generally irrelevant to them.

I'm sure we'd have far more in common with each other than we'd have with any Christian, I'd normally describe myself as a 'heathen' before using the phrase 'atheist'. But looking at this forum, you use the word 'heathen' in a more specific way. I'd just call anyone who wasn't a Jew, Christian or Muslim a heathen.

I have several friends who are practicing druids / 'pagans', and I find them nice fun-loving people. I have no problems with their beliefs / religion, just as I wouldn't have with yours (which i know is different from theirs).

My historical comments were based on the fact that the religions termed 'pagan' have historically been much more tolerant than Christianity or Islam. The religions of Greece and Rome were generally very tolerant, hence so many different gods and religions from all over the Empire peacefully coexisted. Wheareas when the Christians gained control, they persecuted all the other religions out of existence from the 4th century onwards, claiming that all the other gods were devils and false gods.

I think religious intolerance has generally been linked to monotheistic religions, most people who believe in one god automatically assume that all other gods must be wrong and false gods, and historically tend to persecute all other faiths they encounter. Whereas polytheistic / henotheistic 'pagan' religions have tended to accept the existence of other gods / religions as equally valid faiths and thus been far more tolerant.

[Gunnarr]

I posted my introduction in the Sub forum at the time most applicable to my beliefs.

It is not so much a Christian upbringing, it is the Christian filters that affect ones decisions and life choices. Hard to realise you have, and then deconstruct. I would argue that a faith in no god is a religion.

Taking the Oxford dictionary definition of religion we have-

1. people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of God, a god, or gods, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.
2. a particular institutionalised or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine.
3. a set of strongly held beliefs, values, and attitudes that someone lives by.
4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that someone is completely devoted to or obsessed by

I am not sure, but 3 is in my opinion, an atheist.

Taking your statement , this is actually the Christians church definition, they use the Latin word Pagan, meaning non believer, the Germanic word is heathen.

This sort of statement is because you have been raised is a Christian society.

"I'd just call anyone who wasn't a Jew, Christian or Muslim a heathen.".

Christian society has so impacted on your thought process, IE you think like a Christian in your underlying thought's and morality.

Druidism in the modern practice of it is completely made up as is Witchcraft & Wiccan (Modern eclectism).

Aspects of my own religion are also made up from some sources but definitely unsubstantiated by any knowledge of how are ancestors practiced the arts of Rune casting, Seidhr & Galdr.

Heathen religions were much more fluid, what I mean is that tribes may have practiced a different form of heathenry but various aspects would be part of each tribe.

I agree with this statement,

"I think religious intolerance has generally been linked to monotheistic religions, most people who believe in one god automatically assume that all other gods must be wrong and false gods, and historically tend to persecute all other faiths they encounter. Whereas polytheistic / henotheistic 'pagan' religions have tended to accept the existence of other gods / religions as equally valid faiths and thus been far more tolerant."

My ancestors are recorded many times to be duel faithed, Christianity was seen as just another god.

[Too Few Lions]

I posted my introduction in the Sub forum at the time most applicable to my beliefs.

thanks Gunnarr, I'll try and do that over the weekend

I would argue that a faith in no god is a religion.

Taking the Oxford dictionary definition of religion we have-

1. people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of God, a god, or gods, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.
2. a particular institutionalised or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine.
3. a set of strongly held beliefs, values, and attitudes that someone lives by.
4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that someone is completely devoted to or obsessed by

I am not sure, but 3 is in my opinion, an atheist.

I would disagree that atheism is a religion. I don't think that atheism involves any 'strongly held beliefs, values, and attitudes that someone lives by', it's just not believing in any gods. Beyond that it's nothing, no teachings, no values, in my view no beliefs. I'm also an adragonist, apixieist, aunicornist, that's the place that my view of atheism exists in. To say that not believing in gods is a strongly held belief that one lives one's life by is no different than saying that not believing in unicorns is a strongly held belief that one lives one's life by. It's just not the case.

Taking your statement , this is actually the Christians church definition, they use the Latin word Pagan, meaning non believer, the Germanic word is heathen.

This sort of statement is because you have been raised is a Christian society.

"I'd just call anyone who wasn't a Jew, Christian or Muslim a heathen.".

Christian society has so impacted on your thought process, IE you think like a Christian in your underlying thought's and morality.

I disagree, it's also the basic dictionary definition of 'heathen' these days, and that's why I use it in that way. eg here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heathen 'One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.'

If I start trying to cut out all words from the dictionary that I don't like the derivation of, my world's going to become a whole lot more complicated without any real reason. I've got better things to do with my life than worry about the derivation of every word in the dictionary.

My underlying thoughts and morality aren't Christian in the slightest, I live my life by my own moral code. Plus Christian theology and morality aren't original anyway, they're mainly derived from Greek philosophy. If anything I'm influenced by Hellenism, as I think the majority of people are in the west.

My ancestors are recorded many times to be duel faithed, Christianity was seen as just another god.

Christianity is just another god, and just another religion, no more valid or 'true' than any other. Personally I prefer your religion and gods, as I do with all the preChristian religions of Europe.

[Too Few Lions]

Druidism in the modern practice of it is completely made up as is Witchcraft & Wiccan (Modern eclectism).

Aspects of my own religion are also made up from some sources but definitely unsubstantiated by any knowledge of how are ancestors practiced the arts of Rune casting, Seidhr & Galdr.

The 'druids' and neopagans I know mainly celebrate the solstices and equinoxes and general cycle of the year, just as people have done for thousands of years. The majority of the rest of their beliefs may well be a fairly recent (re)construction, as noone actually knows what the original druids believed and practised, but they're free to make up new rituals and beliefs if they want to.

[Gunnarr]

My understanding of when the term was used in relation to my ancestors is this, they were called heathens because they honoured and venerated the Germanic/Scandinavian gods.

There wasn't I doubt many people calling themselves Atheists back then, so for me you have a word for yourselves 'Atheist' you are not heathens as you do not believe in the old gods.

They used the word heathen in a derogatory way, to castigate and devalue the old gods, heathens by owning the word as it appertains to us, we have taken it back. Most people these days call themselves pagan, I am not a pagan, as this is a word with its source in latin, heathen is germanic.

Using you as an example, you are not a heathen, you are godless atheist.

You have a belief in no god, that is a belief, is it not, should it not be tested in the same way using the definition I posted from the Oxford Dictionary, point 3 is you but there is not enough to call it a religion, I never did call you a religion, I did imply you were, but that was because I was looking more at you, than your statement of who you say you are.

To the important part, I am a heathen, I have never been a Christian but!

I have had an education in a school based on,
I am governed by a legal system based on,
The Armed forces ethos is based on,
We grow in any westernised country based on,

CHRISTIANITY,

If you do not see that Christianity has had an impact on you, well this debate between us is going nowhere.

As for preferring my religion, you have no idea what my religion really is and how long it took me to eradicate my upbringing in a Christian society to really understand it.

Your argument on the your influences I believe I have addressed, but saying what you say in relation to 'Ancient Greece' is mute as you did not live in those times.

Not living in those times can be undone by absorbing yourself in to the Greek culture (Living There) and gaining knowledge of what is known from primary and secondary texts, it is also my belief that culture to be truly understood should be in somepart of your culture.

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In regards to Neo pagan groups such a Druids, Witchcraft, they are not reconstructionists, you need a whole plethora of things to do that, they did not have them so they made it up, in my opinion its an insult to there ancestors.

But thats why they are called Neo pagan.

[Too Few Lions]

You have a belief in no god, that is a belief, is it not, should it not be tested in the same way using the definition I posted from the Oxford Dictionary, point 3 is you but there is not enough to call it a religion

Out of the four points you admit three don't apply to atheism but think point 3 does apply. I think it doesn't. what are the 'set of strongly held beliefs, values, and attitudes that someone lives by' that apply to atheism or to me? You've yet to supply me with any, until you do so, you're just making unsubstantiated claims.

To say that I 'have a belief in no god(s)' is pointless, it's like saying you have a belief in no hobgoblins, no unicorns, no dragons, no heffalumps, no toothfairies, no moon made of cheese, no flat earth, no talking dogs, no Cheshire cats etc etc. It's a nothing statement. Not believing in something is not a belief in itself, non-belief is the default position, we're not born believing anything. I believe that the Earth rotates around the Sun, that's a belief, albeit one based on evidence.

I never did call you a religion, I did imply you were, but that was because I was looking more at you, than your statement of who you say you are.

You said 'I would argue that a faith in no god is a religion'. That seems pretty black and white to me. what does 'that was because I was looking more at you, than your statement of who you say you are' mean? I don't understand what that statement is supposed to mean.

To the important part, I am a heathen, I have never been a Christian but!

I have had an education in a school based on,
I am governed by a legal system based on,
The Armed forces ethos is based on,
We grow in any westernised country based on,

CHRISTIANITY,

If you do not see that Christianity has had an impact on you, well this debate between us is going nowhere.

As for preferring my religion, you have no idea what my religion really is and how long it took me to eradicate my upbringing in a Christian society to really understand it.

Obviously you feel Christianity has exerted more influence on you and your upbringing than I do. I disagree that western society is based on Christianity, if you feel that way, I would suggest that Christianity has influenced your worldview than it has mine.

Our education system isn't Christian, it's far more similar to ancient Greek or Roman education systems than Dark Age or Medieval Christian education, which revolved around studying the Bible and little else. Our laws are based on Roman law far more than anything Christian, and there's nothing Christian about armed forces. Professional armies existed long before Christianity. You think western civilization is built on Christianity, like the pope and all Christians, I don't. I see my country (the UK) as a secular, democratic, pluralistic, multicultural society. None of those ideas derive from Christianity, and I think the modern secular Europe I live in is actually far more similar to the Roman Empire than Medieval Christendom.

In an earlier post you claimed that 'Christian society has so impacted on my thought processthat I think like a Christian in my underlying thought's and morality'. Given what you have just written above, I think that's actually far truer of you than me.

Your argument on the your influences I believe I have addressed, but saying what you say in relation to 'Ancient Greece' is mute as you did not live in those times.

Not living in those times can be undone by absorbing yourself in to the Greek culture (Living There) and gaining knowledge of what is known from primary and secondary texts, it is also my belief that culture to be truly understood should be in somepart of your culture.

all ideas and concepts derive from somewhere, and most will derive from a time before I existed! I've read plenty of ancient Greek and Roman texts, and doing that made me realise where all the ideas you consider Christian derive from.

In regards to Neo pagan groups such a Druids, Witchcraft, they are not reconstructionists, you need a whole plethora of things to do that, they did not have them so they made it up, in my opinion its an insult to there ancestors.

hmmm, in an earlier post on this thread you stated 'I am about promoting my own religion, not denouncing others'....

[Gunnarr]

I can not be doing with this posting with multiple parts to the thread, but I will answer your questions. I will answer even though I feel it is a waste of time due to your stance being obtuse and uninformative.

I believe if you are born in to a Christian society, it will a massive impact in your nurturing years in school and society as a whole, it willhave a subconscious impact upon you at best, at worst govern your every thought.

Knowing this about oneself gives you the tools to address it.

It seems you were untouched because you are an amazing individual who even as a child knew they were atheist and resisted your enviroment, learning and culture.

I am not here to defend the roots of Christianity, I do not disagree with your point in general, but taking a virtue that people lived by and making it a commandment does not make the commandment unchristian because it came from a previous culture, it is a Christian commandment, what Christianity took and adapted is a part of their beliefs as it stands today.

Belittling a belief structure by comparing it to the diatribe you posted says again more about you.

The way you approach your godless atheism, makes me think you do approach it as a religion.

I never go on to other threads to attack their beliefs, I do ask questions, that is what these threads are for, discussion. To use the example you have used, in that I have contradicted myself is poor gamesmanship, if you bring something in to a debate in comparison to my beliefs I am not going to let that stand as a valid comparison when it is clearly not.

I believe that people when born have a belief structure in them, I do not believe anyone is born Atheist, that would make a good thread.

[Too Few Lions]

I think we'll just have to differ on our opinions on these things. You believe that we live in a Christian society that influences everything we do or think, I don't. I've never lived in an overly Christian environment, obviously we had very different upbringings.
Just because you think you see Christian influences everywhere doesn't mean they actually exist, or even when they do that they influence everyone.

It sounds a bit like you have a conspiracy theorist view of Christianity and modern society, that somehow it influences us subconciously without us knowing even if we're not Christian, and controls our every thought.

For this to be anything other than just your opinion you're going to have to provide some evidence. In what way have I been conditioned by Christianity? Has it taught me to think for myself like I do, and to try and approach the world in a rational and scientific way? I don't see that as Christian teaching.

I haven't belittled any belief system or posted any diatribe, I have merely stated what I think based on my experiences. I feel you have been far more prone to posting diatribes than me, particularly regarding your rather bizarre belief that atheism is like a religion. You keep saying it but haven't provided a single shred of evidence to back up your argument, which is a very poor attempt at debating. Something doesn't become true just because you keep saying it.

You've posted a four point definition of religion but have yet to show even remotely how atheism can be defined by any of the points. I think you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you genuinely haven't got a clue about what atheism is.