How does the supernatural manifest?

[jamesmorlock]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

[Cain]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

Given the term 'supernatural' meaning "anything above or beyond what one holds to be natural or exists outside natural law and the Observable universe", it seems obvious that supernatural occurrences cannot be properly measured or properly observed, hinting at the possibility that there are no supernatural occurrences.

But! In defense of all things Occult, there exists an Objective and a Subjective Universe, our Consciousness exists in the Subjective Universe (SU), it is our Higher-Self (Dæmon). Upon reflection on its Self there is created a Dualism and hence an Objective Universe (OU) is created in order for the Consciousness to realize Itself. This begins the downfall of the Higher-Self into a Material Plane (OU).

I would say that any 'Supernatural' entities would follow the same path, and that any occurrences caused by Supernatural entities can only be experienced within that entities SU . . . which we may be able to enter into at times through forms of ritualism.

[McCulloch]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

Everyone knows that you cannot put supernatural transcendent dice into a material jar. Myself, I keep my supernatural transcendent dice in a supernatural transcendent jar so as to keep them from being confused with being nothing. I keep that jar, of course, in a supernatural transcendent place, which to those without really good imaginations, cannot be distinguished from nowhere.

[EduChris]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

You seem to be wondering how the supernatural might ever be perceived by those whose antennae are locked onto a materialist channel. The obvious answer is that the supernatural will never be acknowledged by those who refuse to attend to the correct frequency. But if someone tunes to channel "ST" and finds meaningful programming, what logical right does anyone not tuned to that channel have to say that it contains no meaningful programming?

Ultimately, our choice to believe or disbelieve in God depends upon our own desire--Freud's "pleasure principle." There is no airtight argument either way that can compel rational people to adopt one view over another. We all pretty much believe what we want to believe, and what our limited powers of perception and cognition permit us to believe.

[Angel]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

-Jar 1 would be the standard or base to judge from.
-Jar 2 is absolutely nothing
-Jar 3 would have to manifest in a way beyond an ordinary way, like the dice levitating in the jar and we know that dice can't exert any force against gravity. Or the dice moving in circles around each other, etc. These things we can conceive of or see although we just may not be able to explain it.

The hosts on the video apply unnecessary condition to the supernatural, mainly, the immaterial. That's why there's sometimes a confusion between nothing and supernatural. If a divine prophecy, like the ones in the Bible, are an example of the supernatural, then that's one thing that can be documented, tested, and confirmed by scientists.

[jamesmorlock]

-Jar 3 would have to manifest in a way beyond an ordinary way, like the dice levitating in the jar and we know that dice can't exert any force against gravity. Or the dice moving in circles around each other, etc. These things we can conceive of or see although we just may not be able to explain it.

How do you know the dice aren't doing those things, only that they are invisible and undetectable - not unlike God?

The obvious answer is that the supernatural will never be acknowledged by those who refuse to attend to the correct frequency.

Tell us how to 'tune' to the 'correct frequency' in order to find out whether there are supernatural transcendent dice in the jar or not.

I'm not saying that there is no meaningful programming, but the 'channel' might not exist and people are interpreting perfectly normal and explainable phenomena with the superfluous mystical.

You also realize that Freud regarded the monotheistic god as an illusion based upon the infantile emotional need for a powerful, supernatural pater familias, right? He might not be the best guy to reference to support your points.

[EduChris]

...Tell us how to 'tune' to the 'correct frequency' in order to find out whether there are supernatural transcendent dice in the jar or not...

You seem to assume that there should/must be some universally applicable formula which can be employed to experience God. Why would you assume such thing--as opposed to, say, more of a personal, individualized, relational experience? Can everyone who reads a book of information about poetry automatically go out and write good poems? Obviously not, and the same principle might apply to a relationship with God. To me, the "spiritual automaton" approach that is ubiquitous in cults (and to a lesser extent, popular forms of spirituality, as opposed to more intellectually rigorous forms) seems inauthentic.

...the 'channel' might not exist and people are interpreting perfectly normal and explainable phenomena with the superfluous mystical...

That's one possible interpretation, but I don't find it persuasive when presented with the sum total of human experience. You perhaps feel differently. Neither of us can prove our position.

...Freud...might not be the best guy to reference to support your points.

Psychologists today pick and choose among Freud's various theories--some of his theories have stood the test of time better than others, and some of his theories tell us more about him than about anything else. Such is the case with all human authorities.

[AquinasD]

I'd like to know just what it is for dice to manifest themselves "naturally."

As an aside, I tend to define supernatural as "that which has its efficient cause specifically in God." So in this case, it could be that the dice appeared without any material reason, but then you couldn't precisely verify that the dice had no material cause of their being in the jar (or else, material cause of their activity while in the jar), so it would probably be more difficult (using my definition) to distinguish the merely material dice from the supernatural dice.

It seems that we have a better warrant for concluding that some activity was supernatural in origin if we have some reason for believing that God is likely to do something in some particular way, as we have with the Resurrection of Chris. Otherwise, without such a "moral expectation," there would be no reason to suspect some event of being supernatural.

I realize I'm not exactly answering the James' question, for he asked about "supernatural objects," and I'm giving an answer more situated for "supernatural events." I think it is just the case that we can't call any particular object "supernatural." It would be like calling a couch "quick" or a second "red."

[Filthy Tugboat]

...Tell us how to 'tune' to the 'correct frequency' in order to find out whether there are supernatural transcendent dice in the jar or not...

You seem to assume that there should/must be some universally applicable formula which can be employed to experience God. Why would you assume such thing--as opposed to, say, more of a personal, individualized, relational experience?

What you present as an alternative also appears to be an unwarranted assumption, perhaps there are an infinite amount of assumptions one can make about this and absolutely none of them are warranted. It seems more and more like the Gods and other supernatural elements people suggest have no means to convey that knowledge or even to show others a system where that knowledge is to be found. To me, this discredit's the position that the supernatural does exist in any meaningful form, it is never really observable and can never be demonstrated that claims made of the supernatural are true.

[ThatGirlAgain]

In Tracie Harris' "supernatural dice" model, she has three jars:

-Jar 1 contains material dice.
-Jar 2 contains nothing.
-Jar 3 contains supernatural transcendent dice.

How do you tell the difference between the contents of Jar 2 and Jar 3? More importantly, how does the supernatural manifest itself in the material world?

Everyone knows that you cannot put supernatural transcendent dice into a material jar. Myself, I keep my supernatural transcendent dice in a supernatural transcendent jar so as to keep them from being confused with being nothing. I keep that jar, of course, in a supernatural transcendent place, which to those without really good imaginations, cannot be distinguished from nowhere.

Supernatural transcendent jars are also good for storing Universal Solvents.