Are there theists who would prefer a godless world?

[Ploub]

This question deals with what we believe, and if we like it or not.

I am an atheist, and don’t believe at all in any theist description of the world, but I admit sometimes I would enjoy to live in a world where magic / supernatural / miracles exist (or existed).

I think there are other atheists who feel like me.

But are there theists who feel the same (symetric) way? In other words, are there people who strongly believe (for example) in the Christian God yet would sometimes prefer to live in a godless world, a world without afterlife, absolute Good & Evil… ?

I tend to think there are few theists who have this point of view but I may be wrong.

[Zarathustra]

I agree, Ploub. Sometimes I like to think of the world in a more spiritual setting, particularly when I'm doing philosophical writing. Then I just convince myself that it is only a reaction to this physical life.

I'm not sure how many theists would prefer a more mundane realtiy, though. I doubt it goes two ways like that. For example, more people probably eat Spam and pretend it is a feast of spiral-cut ham than eat a feast of Ham and pretend it is a tin of Spam.

But I could be wrong.


edit: by the way, welcome to the forums

[QED]

Welcome. I think you've picked a good topic to start your first debate here. I only wish there were more romantic twists to the world. The knowledge of there having been vastly different appearances to our planet in the past whets my appetite for even stranger tales... but to be of interest to me they have to be credible and based in fact.

I confess to having consumed a considerable amount of nonsense material (anyone remember Erich von Däniken?) in the vain hope that somewhere someone could throw a curve into the steady path of things, but my critical faculties are always turned-up all the way to eleven. I think this desire partly explains my presence on these forums but make no mistake, I'm still an Atheist when it comes to a supernatural creator.

[Bro Dave]

This question deals with what we believe, and if we like it or not.

I am an atheist, and don’t believe at all in any theist description of the world, but I admit sometimes I would enjoy to live in a world where magic / supernatural / miracles exist (or existed).

I think there are other atheists who feel like me.

But are there theists who feel the same (symetric) way? In other words, are there people who strongly believe (for example) in the Christian God yet would sometimes prefer to live in a godless world, a world without afterlife, absolute Good & Evil… ?

I tend to think there are few theists who have this point of view but I may be wrong.

We live in interesting times. We as humans continually spiral upwards in our balancing of the material and spiritual. The spiritual held sway for many centuries, but ultimately got bogged down by the authoritarian nonsense that comes with building structure around spiritual understanding.
Now it appears materialism, having supplanted the spiritual, is being binded by its own authority and structures and denying things spiritual.

The good news is, each cycle moves us higher in our understanding. We quiver on the very brink of a new era in which the spiritual will be experienced dramatically within the material realm. Clearly from the responses to this discussion, there is a hunger for this expanded reality. For those who make the effort to look, the answers are already there, and for those who remain cynics, that protective shroud of cynicism is about to be pierced. In short, we live in period of transition, and as the mechanical age gave way to the technical era, there will be birthing pangs.

Bro Dave

[Zarathustra]

"Birthing Pangs"? An allusion to Revelations, I believe? Just curious, though it holds no real relevance to the topic...

Anyway, that was a very well-written response, Bro Dave, I must say. However, I really don't think I'm surrounded by a "shroud of cynicism"; I'm open to the idea of a spiritual reality, and even take stock in very basic parts of spirituality. But the rest of it, I've examined and just don't like. I've looked for the Truth, and I've nigh found it (for myself, anyway), just not within God.

[McCulloch]

Of course everyone would like there to be some form of magic or supernatural or god if you prefer. Being an atheist has never been a preference. It is just facing up to reality.

[QED]

Clearly from the responses to this discussion, there is a hunger for this expanded reality. For those who make the effort to look, the answers are already there, and for those who remain cynics, that protective shroud of cynicism is about to be pierced. In short, we live in period of transition, and as the mechanical age gave way to the tecnical era, there will be birthing pangs.

I see you've got your prophets hat on now. Usually it's enough for spiritualists to say that materialists would see what they see if only they'd open their eyes. But now it sounds as if you are promising us a new revelation that will cast aside all doubt.

Tell me this though, what enduring breakthroughs from the spiritual to the material have ever been witnessed beyond the doubt of critical observers? I suggest that there never have been nor can there ever be such a breakthrough -- for the simple reason that the arena in which all this takes place is contained within the human mind. That is why it has ever been so, as witnessed by cave paintings from the dawn of humanity.

I put it to you that the longing we all share is an inevitable product of our ability to project beyond the mundane using the freedom of our imaginations. Here's a clear mechanism and a motive... over to you.

[Ploub]

For those who make the effort to look(...)

I find it strange: I tend to think that atheists are those who are making the effort since they try not to see the world the way they'd like it to be. Resisting temptation is an effort.

Let me precise the reasons why, as an atheist (but I'm not talking for other atheists on this forum) I'd enjoy some form of supernatural in our reality. What I find appealing in some theist beliefs is neither the idea of a God nor the concept of some form of afterlife. What I find interesting are the side effects of these beliefs: magic, mysteries, miracles. I wouldn't say that this is the proof I have some need for mysticism or spirituality. Magic, supernatural and miracles basically mean for me "new toys to play with": new things to investigate / discover / experiment / master.

In conclusion, I'd like there to be some form of supernatural so that in the end we can include it in our natural world. I'm aware it may sound depressing for a theist.

[Bro Dave]

Clearly from the responses to this discussion, there is a hunger for this expanded reality. For those who make the effort to look, the answers are already there, and for those who remain cynics, that protective shroud of cynicism is about to be pierced. In short, we live in period of transition, and as the mechanical age gave way to the technical era, there will be birthing pangs.

I see you've got your prophets hat on now. Usually it's enough for spiritualists to say that materialists would see what they see if only they'd open their eyes. But now it sounds as if you are promising us a new revelation that will cast aside all doubt.

It unfolds before your very eyes, and yes, it will become more apparent as time goes by. But I do not ask or expect you to believe that.

Tell me this though, what enduring breakthroughs from the spiritual to the material have ever been witnessed beyond the doubt of critical observers? I suggest that there never have been nor can there ever be such a breakthrough -- for the simple reason that the arena in which all this takes place is contained within the human mind. That is why it has ever been so, as witnessed by cave paintings from the dawn of humanity.

"critical" may be the sticking point here. There certainly have been spiritual events that were witnessed by many. However, I doubt you would accept their observations.(unless of course they were to refute them)

I put it to you that the longing we all share is an inevitable product of our ability to project beyond the mundane using the freedom of our imaginations. Here's a clear mechanism and a motive... over to you.

And I put it to you, that the "longing" mankind has always had, is the "spiritual gravity" that ultimately will bring our spiritual perceptions an a par with our physical existances.

Bro Dave

[QED]

Tell me this though, what enduring breakthroughs from the spiritual to the material have ever been witnessed beyond the doubt of critical observers? I suggest that there never have been nor can there ever be such a breakthrough -- for the simple reason that the arena in which all this takes place is contained within the human mind. That is why it has ever been so, as witnessed by cave paintings from the dawn of humanity.

"critical" may be the sticking point here. There certainly have been spiritual events that were witnessed by many. However, I doubt you would accept their observations.(unless of course they were to refute them)

Never mind what I would accept, in the context of this debate critical observation means "do we just take someones word for it, or do we go further towards verifying the validity of the claim". Do you think that anyone should be able to make an unsupported claim and have it passed off as truth? You might suggest that if it is harmless, or possibly even good for something then it might be acceptable -- but I don't. My reason for thinking this is that it sets a precedent for other examples of uncritical thinking. It becomes a sort of habit eventually giving rise to more harmful consequences. This presents a real danger.

And I put it to you, that the "longing" mankind has always had, is the "spiritual gravity" that ultimately will bring our spiritual perceptions an a par with our physical existances.

If our imaginations are used to properly steer us towards a better future then it seems to me that we have everything we need to realise this utopia. But the very big danger is that this process is destabilised by superstition and deeper predujices -- in which case we make no real progress, we just continue to inflict the same injustices upon ourselves with ever more efficient technology.