Question about Trinity

[McCulloch]

How is it that two eternal persons be described as having a father and son relationship?

[ttruscott]

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

This is the strongest verse to support the Trinity that I can find.

ALL secular definitions of love include another person:

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3. sexual passion or desire.
4. a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.
5. (used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like):

ALL Biblical definitions of love are about a relationship:
1 Corinthians 13: Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

Try putting any of these definitions of love into a total vacuum: Love is patient and not jealous in a vaccuum with no one else in existence....

Even John, the one who Jesus loved, always wrote about love as a part of realtionship: as per:
John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

I John 2:5
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

LOVE is a behavioural choice with an emotional component or is an emotion that impels us to behave favourably towards another but it always includes another person.

The concept of a GOD who is LOVE not having someone to love is ludicrous, especially for the eternity before creation.

Peace to all,

Ted

[Burninglight]

Burninglight, thank you for admitting that your faith is illogical and unreasonable. You'll forgive me if I seek a path of logic and reason, as much as it is possible.

Sure, as long as your not patronizing me, but I cannot speak for God, but I know the Scriptures say, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." I don't trust in man. Since I don't, that doesn't preclude me; therefore, I choose, although not always appearing to be logical or reasonable, to trust the Lord, But the Lord does make an offer for those who take the path of logic & reason. For what its worth, it is written: "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." That sounds like a very reasonable offer to me. So in this case I'll take the path of reason

[McCulloch]

Burninglight, thank you for admitting that your faith is illogical and unreasonable. You'll forgive me if I seek a path of logic and reason, as much as it is possible.

Sure, as long as your not patronizing me, but I cannot speak for God, but I know the Scriptures say, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." I don't trust in man.

But of course you do trust in humans, actually almost exclusively men. They have names like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jesus. Some are anonymous. If you did not trust these men, you would know nothing of this God you claim to trust.

But the Lord does make an offer for those who take the path of logic & reason. For what its worth, it is written: "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." That sounds like a very reasonable offer to me. So in this case I'll take the path of reason.

Ripped out of context and taken by itself, this is quite reasonable. However the fuller version sounds like this to me:

• "I am your Creator", says the Lord God, "It is my desire that you be pure and sinless. However, I have put you into a situation where it is virtually impossible for you not to have sinned. And knowing that, I have declared from time immemorial, that everyone who sins will be cast into the everlasting fire. Death is the consequence of your sin. I love you and want to forgive you but I cannot without going against this consequence that I myself had declared from the beginning. Thus, I had become a human, was incarnated for the very purpose of being tortured to death, so that I could take the punishment of death which I myself declared you deserved. I said that you should die for that which you could not avoid, but I took that punishment myself so that I could forgive you. You should be grateful to me and forever sing my praises for being so clever."

Not so logical and reasonable when put this way, eh?

[Burninglight]

Burninglight, thank you for admitting that your faith is illogical and unreasonable. You'll forgive me if I seek a path of logic and reason, as much as it is possible.

Sure, as long as your not patronizing me, but I cannot speak for God, but I know the Scriptures say, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." I don't trust in man.

But of course you do trust in humans, actually almost exclusively men. They have names like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jesus. Some are anonymous. If you did not trust these men, you would know nothing of this God you claim to trust.

But the Lord does make an offer for those who take the path of logic & reason. For what its worth, it is written: "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." That sounds like a very reasonable offer to me. So in this case I'll take the path of reason.

Ripped out of context and taken by itself, this is quite reasonable. However the fuller version sounds like this to me:

• "I am your Creator", says the Lord God, "It is my desire that you be pure and sinless. However, I have put you into a situation where it is virtually impossible for you not to have sinned. And knowing that, I have declared from time immemorial, that everyone who sins will be cast into the everlasting fire. Death is the consequence of your sin. I love you and want to forgive you but I cannot without going against this consequence that I myself had declared from the beginning. Thus, I had become a human, was incarnated for the very purpose of being tortured to death, so that I could take the punishment of death which I myself declared you deserved. I said that you should die for that which you could not avoid, but I took that punishment myself so that I could forgive you. You should be grateful to me and forever sing my praises for being so clever."

Not so logical and reasonable when put this way, eh?

Yes, men inspired by God. It is like they are messengers, but rejecting what they say you reject the sender of the message. Jesus is that message. I find logic and good reason to accept the Lord and the gift of eternal life when I know I have sinned (All have) and the wages of sin is death (Christless eternity) It makes sense that Jesus who knew no sin could pay for our sin just as much as someone can pay your way into a concert or any other event. Look I don't want to argue about it. You have made you point.
I cannot convince you that God exists; and that is not my job. We are all free to choose as we want in this life, but experience tells me we are not free from the consequences of our choices.
It is written in the Bible "It is appointed unto man once to die after that comes the judgment" that is for all.
I see it as a world court room and God is the terrible Judge who follows the law perfectly. Those that have the son have an attorney; the devil is the prosecuting attorney; he is the best at it. Without Christ you have to defend yourself. A lawyer once told me in a court of law anyone that wants to defend himself has a fool for an attorney

[McCulloch]

Sure, as long as your not patronizing me, but I cannot speak for God, but I know the Scriptures say, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." I don't trust in man.

But of course you do trust in humans, actually almost exclusively men. They have names like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jesus. Some are anonymous. If you did not trust these men, you would know nothing of this God you claim to trust.

Yes, men inspired by God. It is like they are messengers, but rejecting what they say you reject the sender of the message.

You have provided no reason to believe this. You believe that the writers of the Bible were inspired by God. Why? Because they say so? Or because you feel that it must be true?

Jesus is that message. I find logic and good reason to accept the Lord and the gift of eternal life when I know I have sinned (All have) and the wages of sin is death (Christless eternity)

How is it that you know that the wages of sin is death? Because men, the writers of the New Testament have said so, right? How is it that you know that death, in this context, does not mean death, but Christless eternity. Because men, your church and other churches' leaders have said so. I don't necessarily wish to discuss the particular issue, but the epistemology, the reasons we might have to know what we claim to know.

It makes sense that Jesus who knew no sin could pay for our sin just as much as someone can pay your way into a concert or any other event.

It does not make sense that the Judge, having found us guilty of a capital offense, could commute our collective eternal sentence to an innocent but willing victim for a single weekend and still be called just.

I cannot convince you that God exists; and that is not my job.

If it is a rational and logical believe, then you could. I listen to reason. I can and have changed my beliefs based on reason.

We are all free to choose as we want in this life, but experience tells me we are not free from the consequences of our choices.

Yes, we are not free from the consequences of our choices. However, we do not choose our beliefs. Those things that we are convinced of, we are compelled, by the evidence, reason, or sometimes other less rational factors, to believe. I cannot simply choose to believe that which I currently do not believe. Can you?

[Burninglight]

If we went to an event together that requires the purchase of a ticket, and you didn't have enough money or any money to purchase the ticket. Could I say to the person taking money at the ticket booth, "Here is the money for his ticket" please give him the ticket?" Now, is there any reason why that person would say "NO, I cannot, because he didn't pay for it?" If you cannot understand this earthly analogy is reasonable and logical, then there is no point discussing heavenly spiritual matters further.

To answer your other question: No, I cannot make myself believe what I feel is not true. I would not have been able to come to Christ like I did unless God had drawn me to him. Maybe, He has not drawn you, but when He does, you still have an opportunity to choose to accept or reject that message. That decision will be what you will have to live with or die with forever.

Christians believe the Bible that states God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of truth. Jesus said, "I am the Truth..." If we cannot accept that, it could be because God hasn't drawn you to Christ, or it could be He has, but you have rejected it. I don't know where you stand, but I know you are now at the crossroads of eternity. IOW, it could be you are being drawn now.

[ttruscott]

Burninglight, thank you for admitting that your faith is illogical and unreasonable. You'll forgive me if I seek a path of logic and reason, as much as it is possible.

Sure, as long as your not patronizing me, but I cannot speak for God, but I know the Scriptures say, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." I don't trust in man.

But of course you do trust in humans, actually almost exclusively men. They have names like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jesus. Some are anonymous. If you did not trust these men, you would know nothing of this God you claim to trust.

But the Lord does make an offer for those who take the path of logic & reason. For what its worth, it is written: "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." That sounds like a very reasonable offer to me. So in this case I'll take the path of reason.

Ripped out of context and taken by itself, this is quite reasonable. However the fuller version sounds like this to me:

• "I am your Creator", says the Lord God, "It is my desire that you be pure and sinless. However, I have put you into a situation where it is virtually impossible for you not to have sinned. And knowing that, I have declared from time immemorial, that everyone who sins will be cast into the everlasting fire. Death is the consequence of your sin. I love you and want to forgive you but I cannot without going against this consequence that I myself had declared from the beginning. Thus, I had become a human, was incarnated for the very purpose of being tortured to death, so that I could take the punishment of death which I myself declared you deserved. I said that you should die for that which you could not avoid, but I took that punishment myself so that I could forgive you. You should be grateful to me and forever sing my praises for being so clever."

Not so logical and reasonable when put this way, eh?

Agreed, IF you depend upon the scriptural account of Adam and Eve only, as interpreted by Hebrew scholars (who taught it to the Christians),

but that is why some folk never gave up searching the Holy Spirit for the answer and so learned about our pre-earth existence and free choices and our fall into true sin...

Consider for a moment, (just for the fun of it), that Adam and Eve came to the garden as sinners, after true free will choices; one of which they passed to become elect and under gospel protection and another which they failed, falling into sin thereby needing Christ's promised redemption on the cross. The implications do become sensible and logical...

Peace, Ted

[McCulloch]

If we went to an event together that requires the purchase of a ticket, and you didn't have enough money or any money to purchase the ticket. Could I say to the person taking money at the ticket booth, "Here is the money for his ticket" please give him the ticket?" Now, is there any reason why that person would say "NO, I cannot, because he didn't pay for it?" If you cannot understand this earthly analogy is reasonable and logical, then there is no point discussing heavenly spiritual matters further.

I understand the analogy. If the price of the event is 700 aeons of hard labor, but the person ahead of me pays three days and three nights (or less), would the ticket taker let in the rest of the line? If a fair and just judge passed a death sentence, would he still be considered fair and just if he commuted that sentence to an innocent but willing victim, who would serve only one weekend?

To answer your other question: No, I cannot make myself believe what I feel is not true. I would not have been able to come to Christ like I did unless God had drawn me to him. Maybe, He has not drawn you, but when He does, you still have an opportunity to choose to accept or reject that message. That decision will be what you will have to live with or die with forever.

I'll await the call. There are so many messages, all from people claiming to speak for God. It is confusing. But since God must be a perfect communicator, when he draws me to himself, I will (I must) know that it is legitimately him. If I know that, then I will accept. How could I do otherwise?

Christians believe the Bible that states God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of truth.

If God is omnipotent, then no one will perish.

[Burninglight]

If we went to an event together that requires the purchase of a ticket, and you didn't have enough money or any money to purchase the ticket. Could I say to the person taking money at the ticket booth, "Here is the money for his ticket" please give him the ticket?" Now, is there any reason why that person would say "NO, I cannot, because he didn't pay for it?" If you cannot understand this earthly analogy is reasonable and logical, then there is no point discussing heavenly spiritual matters further.

I understand the analogy. If the price of the event is 700 aeons of hard labor, but the person ahead of me pays three days and three nights (or less), would the ticket taker let in the rest of the line? If a fair and just judge passed a death sentence, would he still be considered fair and just if he commuted that sentence to an innocent but willing victim, who would serve only one weekend?

To answer your other question: No, I cannot make myself believe what I feel is not true. I would not have been able to come to Christ like I did unless God had drawn me to him. Maybe, He has not drawn you, but when He does, you still have an opportunity to choose to accept or reject that message. That decision will be what you will have to live with or die with forever.

I'll await the call. There are so many messages, all from people claiming to speak for God. It is confusing. But since God must be a perfect communicator, when he draws me to himself, I will (I must) know that it is legitimately him. If I know that, then I will accept. How could I do otherwise?

Christians believe the Bible that states God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of truth.

If God is omnipotent, then no one will perish.

You are getting carried away; you said you understood the analogy; therefore, leave it at that. Nevertheless, the price one would pay for another is commeasurate with the love they have for that person. It is written, "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend."

You will await the call? That is great, but you'd be surprise how many would turn down God's call. Most people love sin more than they love God, and they would prefer not to have to battle with things that keep them from coming to God fully.

If God hasn't drawn you yet, He has His reasons. It could be He knows your not ready yet. But when He draws you, you'll know it. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me."

It is when one denies the call that true confusion and deception comes to replace the truth revealed to him or her. It is written; "Those that refuse the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie" This is what I believe has happened to many if not all Muslims and cult leaders such a Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses!

God in His sovereignty has allowed man to choose his own fate. He puts before us life and death, and He prefers we choose life. We are free to choose as we wish, but we aren't free from the consequences of our choices!

[McCulloch]

It is when one denies the call that true confusion and deception comes to replace the truth revealed to him or her. It is written; "Those that refuse the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie" This is what I believe has happened to many if not all Muslims and cult leaders such a Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses!

Or could it be that Orthodox Christianity is the strong delusion and one of the others is the truth. How do you distinguish?