What "CHURCH" was Jesus refering to?

[JehovahsWitness]

A lot of Christians believe Jesus did not establish an organized religion, my question is in connection with Matthew 18 verse 17.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.."- New American Standard Bible (©1995)

http://bible.cc/matthew/18-17.htm

If Jesus had no intention for his followers to be part of a CHURCH or community of believers from which one could be excluded in some way, what were these guidelines pointing towards?

[EduChris]

A lot of Christians believe Jesus did not establish an organized religion, my question is in connection with Matthew 18 verse 17.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.."- New American Standard Bible (©1995)

http://bible.cc/matthew/18-17.htm

If Jesus had no intention for his followers to be part of a CHURCH or community of believers from which one could be excluded in some way, what were these guidelines pointing towards?

I think some of Jesus' parables demonstrate that Jesus did envision an indefinite period of time before the final consummation of history. Given this, it seems unlikely that Jesus envisioned in the meanwhile that there would be no community of people to remember him and commemorate his life, death, and resurrection. So it does seem to me that Jesus envisioned some community of followers to keep his memory alive and to carry on with Jesus' ministry of service to others.

[JehovahsWitness]

A lot of Christians believe Jesus did not establish an organized religion, my question is in connection with Matthew 18 verse 17.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.."- New American Standard Bible (©1995)

http://bible.cc/matthew/18-17.htm

If Jesus had no intention for his followers to be part of a CHURCH or community of believers from which one could be excluded in some way, what were these guidelines pointing towards?

I think some of Jesus' parables demonstrate that Jesus did envision an indefinite period of time before the final consummation of history. Given this, it seems unlikely that Jesus envisioned in the meanwhile that there would be no community of people to remember him and commemorate his life, death, and resurrection. So it does seem to me that Jesus envisioned some community of followers to keep his memory alive and to carry on with Jesus' ministry of service to others.

I would agree, I'm just interested in those that believe in Jesus but don't believe in "church".

Thanks for your input,
JW

[yaright]

A lot of Christians believe Jesus did not establish an organized religion, my question is in connection with Matthew 18 verse 17.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.."- New American Standard Bible (©1995)

http://bible.cc/matthew/18-17.htm

If Jesus had no intention for his followers to be part of a CHURCH or community of believers from which one could be excluded in some way, what were these guidelines pointing towards?

I think some of Jesus' parables demonstrate that Jesus did envision an indefinite period of time before the final consummation of history. Given this, it seems unlikely that Jesus envisioned in the meanwhile that there would be no community of people to remember him and commemorate his life, death, and resurrection. So it does seem to me that Jesus envisioned some community of followers to keep his memory alive and to carry on with Jesus' ministry of service to others.

I would agree, I'm just interested in those that believe in Jesus but don't believe in "church".

Thanks for your input,
JW

I'd like to add;
It seems this subject has been a part of Christianity since its beginnings. I saw that the disciples (the beginning of Christ's Church) argued amongst themselves, who is the greatest among them. This Church, which began with Jesus, and is of Jesus, and those who were called in the beginning of the foundation of Christ's Church, are no different then than today. I found there seems to be no shortage of people who boast in their religions; much like the first disciples boasted in themselves. In the end, it became evident they did not follow themselves; They followed Jesus.

We can know by the evidence around us that men are able to shape stones with their own hands, and build a church from this earth, according to the things which seem right to them. But there is another type of Carpenter; A Carpenter's Son, who shapes living stones according to the things which are from above. One is them image of the other; One is greater than the other. There is no carpenter on this earth who can shape stones that are living. This seems to become evident when Jesus said, "Follow Me." He is the corner stone of His own Church.

The reference to Matthew 18;17 is not reference to a religion; But it is reference to a Church of living stones who are asked to speak to a sinning brother. Religion cannot and does not speak; but the living stones do speak. This is the Church that speaks to a sinning brother. In the beginnings of my walk of faith, my own prejudices favored the people of my religion more than my love for Jesus. It's a nature which isn't easy to see.

[officer2002]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

It is painfully obvious that Jesus started a church. It had structure. We can see that in Acts when there was a dispute about doctrine, they went to the earthly head of the church for resolution. That church was eventually lost and in need of a restoration. It was restored on April 6, 1830 in New York State.

[tam]

As yaright said above, the Church is the Body of Christ... made of people (living stones).

His Church is built on Him - the cornerstone.


As to the last part of that verse: "If he does not listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector..."


One might want to ask oneself how Christ taught us to treat such people. By shunning them? Ex-communicating them? Disfellowshipping them?

From Matthew (who was himself a tax collector), chapter 5, verse 44-48:

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

As yaright said above, the Church is the Body of Christ... made of people (living stones).

His Church is built on Him - the cornerstone.


As to the last part of that verse: "If he does not listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector..."


One might want to ask oneself how Christ taught us to treat such people. By shunning them? Ex-communicating them? Disfellowshipping them?

From Matthew (who was himself a tax collector), chapter 5, verse 44-48:

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So what did Jesus MEAN when he said "If he does not listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector..."

- how would the churches treatment of this unrepentent one differ from before the above action is taken to after?

- would there be some kind of change? If so what would it be? If there is no change in treatment, what is the point of the statement?

[tam]

As yaright said above, the Church is the Body of Christ... made of people (living stones).

His Church is built on Him - the cornerstone.


As to the last part of that verse: "If he does not listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector..."


One might want to ask oneself how Christ taught us to treat such people. By shunning them? Ex-communicating them? Disfellowshipping them?

From Matthew (who was himself a tax collector), chapter 5, verse 44-48:

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So what did Jesus MEAN when he said "If he does not listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector..."

- how would the churches treatment of this unrepentent one differ from before the above action is taken to after?

- would there be some kind of change? If so what would it be? If there is no change in treatment, what is the point of the statement?

What is the point of the statement?

Perhaps so that you would then inquire and/or reason as to how Christ has taught that we should treat a pagan or a tax collector? Perhaps also that you could then reveal whether or not you understand what it means that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.




We would not follow them in their sin, but we would - if we are listening to Christ - ask forgiveness for them, ask mercy for them, and continue to show them love (as we are to love even our enemies).

We who are in Christ are to surpass what the tax collector and the pagan do, those from Matt 5:44-48. We are to do more than; not the same, and certainly not less.

We reveal who we are (and who we are listening to) by what we say and do, even with regard to those who have sinned against us, and those who are our enemies.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 8 by tam]

Okay Thanks for your opinion.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[ttruscott]

- how would the churches treatment of this unrepentent one differ from before the above action is taken to after?

- would there be some kind of change? If so what would it be? If there is no change in treatment, what is the point of the statement?

I suggest that while we stay committed to treating them lovingly, we are called to come out from among them, 2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the LORD. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you.

This cannot mean to leave their presence because even in the desert the Mansons live. It means in our heart, in our attitudes to the pagan things in our religious lives. It means to be ready to damn your family, babies to grandmother, if they are not holy when the judgement day comes upon you. It means that if you turn back because of the cries of your family of any age instead of looking forward to the reward from GOD, you will become a pillar of salt.

We should tell the proven reprobate (tax collector) the gospel but we should not fellowship with him nor seek him out.