Shinto Is Never Religion

[cat]

Shinto Is Never Religion

http://book.geocities.jp/japans_conspir ... html#page5

People pray for snobbish profits, particularly for rich marriage, earlier promotion, success in the university entrance examination.

We feel no ethics in this cult.

[Polyatheist]

No, I mean they can be atheists and study the stars. If that is the case, they will not credit heavens to God's creation.

Well no, they credit the universe to the big bang. Something that has observable parts, unlike your god.

That is what I mean I don't have to defend them to you and if I weren't convinced, I would be an atheist like you. It goes without saying that I am a polyatheist, but you saying it about yourself is of particular interest. It begs the question: "Is he a theist in some sought of denial?" So are you?

It's ironic to people who don't understand the definition, very simple and completely irrelevant to this discussion. No, I'm not a theist in denial. In fact if I was a theist I would be in deny because I would be constantly having to lie to myself about reality.

I have heard an evolutionist debate with Kent Hovind saying there are no absolutes so I assumed that many scientist believe this. I wouldn't lie. I could just be mistaken. To insinuate or ask am I in denial is one thing, but to imply lying just to be right is on the rude side and kind of an attack on character. So are you saying you believe in absolutes?

Ah, that makes sense. If he was debating a physicist or chemist he would have gotten a different answer. Any scientific law, and I mean law not theory, cannot be broken, ever. In this sense they are absolutes. This also follows with several constants that deal with quantum mechanics. For example Plank's constant is an absolute because it is always in effect. Denial and lying are the same thing, denial is lying to yourself and lying is lying to other people. A greater attack on character is accusing someone of being in deny because we all lie to other people and we'd all like to think we don't lie to ourselves. If you knowingly lie to yourself, that is the greatest affront of character. To get back to the absolutes; I do believe in some absolutes are they are necessary for the understanding and calculations of scientific principles. This does not mean I believe in all absolutes.

I'd just like to add Kent Hovind is a terrible person who is in jail for tax fraud because he stole too much money from believers and didn't want to claim it as income.

[Burninglight]

No, I mean they can be atheists and study the stars. If that is the case, they will not credit heavens to God's creation.

Well no, they credit the universe to the big bang. Something that has observable parts, unlike your god.

That is what I mean I don't have to defend them to you and if I weren't convinced, I would be an atheist like you. It goes without saying that I am a polyatheist, but you saying it about yourself is of particular interest. It begs the question: "Is he a theist in some sought of denial?" So are you?

It's ironic to people who don't understand the definition, very simple and completely irrelevant to this discussion. No, I'm not a theist in denial. In fact if I was a theist I would be in deny because I would be constantly having to lie to myself about reality.

I have heard an evolutionist debate with Kent Hovind saying there are no absolutes so I assumed that many scientist believe this. I wouldn't lie. I could just be mistaken. To insinuate or ask am I in denial is one thing, but to imply lying just to be right is on the rude side and kind of an attack on character. So are you saying you believe in absolutes?

Ah, that makes sense. If he was debating a physicist or chemist he would have gotten a different answer. Any scientific law, and I mean law not theory, cannot be broken, ever. In this sense they are absolutes. This also follows with several constants that deal with quantum mechanics. For example Plank's constant is an absolute because it is always in effect. Denial and lying are the same thing, denial is lying to yourself and lying is lying to other people. A greater attack on character is accusing someone of being in deny because we all lie to other people and we'd all like to think we don't lie to ourselves. If you knowingly lie to yourself, that is the greatest affront of character. To get back to the absolutes; I do believe in some absolutes are they are necessary for the understanding and calculations of scientific principles. This does not mean I believe in all absolutes.

I'd just like to add Kent Hovind is a terrible person who is in jail for tax fraud because he stole too much money from believers and didn't want to claim it as income.

Well, denial is lying to oneself, but if you or I do that, it is our business, and it isn't an attack on someone else's character; additionally, being in denial is not against forum rules, but if one attacks the character of another, it is, and I would consider that to be more serious. Ask a moderator if you can't take my word for it.

I heard about Kent Hovind's tax issues. IMO, you have now attacked his character and judged him. I don't know enough, but I don't believe he stole money from Christians or believers, but I believe he may have tried to evade some unjust taxes. The government hit me for 7000 dollars in fines and penalties because my accountant or I forgot to report 400 dollars of income. I paid the fines and interest, but on my part it wasn't my intention to hold back income information form them. Jesus said do not judged for with what measure you dish out it shall be measured to you again. BTW, you even call Jesus Christ a liar. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" to God!

As far as the "big bang," I've heard of that. I guess the only things we have in common is that I too am a polyatheist, and I believe in the big bang; God spoke it and Bang it Happened!

What turned you away from being theist if you don't mind saying? Are you bitter?
You believe in absolutes accept when it comes to God or do you believe there are absolutes concerning a supreme being?

I believe if something exists now, something or someone had to have always existed. So an atheist's position doesn't click with me. I believe it takes more faith to be an atheist than a theist. You have more faith than me lol

[Polyatheist]

Well, denial is lying to oneself, but if you or I do that, it is our business, and it isn't an attack on someone else's character; additionally, being in denial is not against forum rules, but if one attacks the character of another, it is, and I would consider that to be more serious. Ask a moderator if you can't take my word for it.

Everyone lies, not everyone is in denial. Denial still remains the greatest attack on character. Calling someone a liar is calling them human.

I heard about Kent Hovind's tax issues. IMO, you have now attacked his character and judged him. I don't know enough, but I don't believe he stole money from Christians or believers, but I believe he may have tried to evade some unjust taxes. The government hit me for 7000 dollars in fines and penalties because my accountant or I forgot to report 400 dollars of income. I paid the fines and interest, but on my part it wasn't my intention to hold back income information form them. Jesus said do not judged for with what measure you dish out it shall be measured to you again. BTW, you even call Jesus Christ a liar. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" to God!

I'm not judging him, merely reporting on his criminal activities. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovend The first paragraph gives a nice summery. "Since January 2007, Hovind has been serving a ten-year prison sentence after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including 12 tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents, and 45 counts of structuring cash transactions. He is incarcerated at the FPC Satellite Camp of the ADX Florence prison in Florence, Colorado." That doesn't really sound like an honest mistake.

As far as the "big bang," I've heard of that. I guess the only things we have in common is that I too am a polyatheist, and I believe in the big bang; God spoke it and Bang it Happened!

That's not the big bang, I'm glad you can put a spin on science to have it tell you something other then the actual meaning.

What turned you away from being theist if you don't mind saying? Are you bitter?
You believe in absolutes accept when it comes to God or do you believe there are absolutes concerning a supreme being?

I believe if something exists now, something or someone had to have always existed. So an atheist's position doesn't click with me. I believe it takes more faith to be an atheist than a theist. You have more faith than me lol

I read the bible and had to stop believing because that would mean hell was actually earth and god was actually Satan. I was bitter when I was a theist because my god was an angry, vicious, jealous, spiteful god. The bible told me this because I didn't willingly omit any part and took the bible for what it was, not just chosen sections. The bitterness went away when I realized I wasn't ruled by a tyrant dictator. I can't believe in absolutes when it comes to anything supernatural because it doesn't exist, unless you would like to provide evidence for those absolutes that is not the bible. If the bible is the word of god you can't pick and choose what to follow and believe, it's either the entire thing or none of it. This is a huge misconception a lot of religious people have, if the bible is the word of god there are no mistakes and he wants you to murder lots of people who don't follow it (I can quote those murder parts if you haven't read the bible of need reminding). You only think it takes faith to be an atheist because you don't have any post-secondary scientific education, your position would be different if you did. That's why most scientists are atheists, they understand what you call 'atheist faith' is really just scientific education that can be tested and proven.

[Burninglight]

quote="Burninglight"]Well, denial is lying to oneself, but if you or I do that, it is our business, and it isn't an attack on someone else's character; additionally, being in denial is not against forum rules, but if one attacks the character of another, it is, and I would consider that to be more serious. Ask a moderator if you can't take my word for it

Everyone lies, not everyone is in denial. Denial still remains the greatest attack on character. Calling someone a liar is calling them human.
.

Yes, this is true everyone lies, and it isn't a good thing, but if you see denial as the greatest attack on character, then I apologize to you for asking if you were in denial? I didn't mean to offend you. Are you bitter? was a better question, and you answered it.

I'm not judging him, merely reporting on his criminal activities. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovend The first paragraph gives a nice summery. "Since January 2007, Hovind has been serving a ten-year prison sentence after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including 12 tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents, and 45 counts of structuring cash transactions. He is incarcerated at the FPC Satellite Camp of the ADX Florence prison in Florence, Colorado." That doesn't really sound like an honest mistake.

Yes you did, you called him a terrible person. Things are not always as they seem.

As far as the "big bang," I've heard of that. I guess the only things we have in common is that I too am a polyatheist, and I believe in the big bang; God spoke it and Bang it Happened

That's not the big bang, I'm glad you can put a spin on science to have it tell you something other then the actual meaning.

LOL

I read the bible and had to stop believing because that would mean hell was actually earth and god was actually Satan. I was bitter when I was a theist because my god was an angry, vicious, jealous, spiteful god. The bible told me this because I didn't willingly omit any part and took the bible for what it was, not just chosen sections. The bitterness went away when I realized I wasn't ruled by a tyrant dictator.

It sounds like you are influenced by Richard Dawkins as well not just the Bible.

I can't believe in absolutes when it comes to anything supernatural because it doesn't exist, unless you would like to provide evidence for those absolutes that is not the bible. .

So you're not absolutely sure?

If the bible is the word of god you can't pick and choose what to follow and believe, it's either the entire thing or none of it. This is a huge misconception a lot of religious people have, if the bible is the word of god there are no mistakes and he wants you to murder lots of people who don't follow it (I can quote those murder parts if you haven't read the bible of need reminding). You only think it takes faith to be an atheist because you don't have any post-secondary scientific education, your position would be different if you did. That's why most scientists are atheists, they understand what you call 'atheist faith' is really just scientific education that can be tested and proven.

I have an education, and there many theist scientist. But let me say that I believe God is terrible in the true sense of the word I mean. I have prayed about things in my life and I was profoundly disappointed. It seemed like God was distant and detached to what was most important to me and what I felt was my need. I got mad at God. I still don't understand why he chooses not to listen to me, and I am tempted to doubt, but the difference between us is I choose to believe God is good. I choose to trust Him even if He slays me like Job said. I choose to believe that He is working all things for my good. I choose not to give up and cast away my confidence that has a great recompense of reward.

If there were scientific evidence for God's existence, everyone would choose God even the wicked or evil people. If any comes to God he must believe that God is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I believe you are better off going back to being angry & bitter with God than to insult Him by saying He doesn't exist. This type of denial my friend is truly the greatest attack on ones own character; it is to deny that God exist for we are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image and likness of God

[Polyatheist]

I have an education, and there many theist scientist. But let me say that I believe God is terrible in the true sense of the word I mean. I have prayed about things in my life and I was profoundly disappointed. It seemed like God was distant and detached to what was most important to me and what I felt was my need. I got mad at God. I still don't understand why he chooses not to listen to me, and I am tempted to doubt, but the difference between us is I choose to believe God is good. I choose to trust Him even if He slays me like Job said. I choose to believe that He is working all things for my good. I choose not to give up and cast away my confidence that has a great recompense of reward.

If there were scientific evidence for God's existence, everyone would choose God even the wicked or evil people. If any comes to God he must believe that God is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I believe you are better off going back to being angry & bitter with God than to insult Him by saying He doesn't exist. This type of denial my friend is truly the greatest attack on ones own character; it is to deny that God exist for we are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image and likness of God

I did call Kent Hovind a terrible person and I'm not sure by what you mean when you say things are not always as they seem. He was tried in a court of law and found guilty, are you suggesting they made a mistake and sentenced him to a decade in prison unjustly? I was an atheist for a decade before I knew Richard Dawkins existed so that rules out your influence hypothesis. I never suggested you were uneducated, I just said you didn't have a post-secondary education in a scientific field. This is probably why you don't understand evolution and think it requires faith to trust in the evidence.

If you truly believe I am better of lying to myself and being angry and bitter to be a believer, you wish for me to be as unhappy as possible. You would rather me (and others) to live a miserable life and believe in god then live a happy life without that belief. I don't even know how to respond to this because I was starting to believe you were a nice rational person. What if I said, I don't care how happy your god makes you, you have to stop believing in him now. If god is what makes you happy then keep believing, I would never tell anyone they should be unhappy. This may be the main difference between us, you want people to believe despite happiness and I want people to be happy as long as they are true to themselves. I hope all theists don't think like you because if they do this world will never be a happy place.

[Burninglight]

I have an education, and there many theist scientist. But let me say that I believe God is terrible in the true sense of the word I mean. I have prayed about things in my life and I was profoundly disappointed. It seemed like God was distant and detached to what was most important to me and what I felt was my need. I got mad at God. I still don't understand why he chooses not to listen to me, and I am tempted to doubt, but the difference between us is I choose to believe God is good. I choose to trust Him even if He slays me like Job said. I choose to believe that He is working all things for my good. I choose not to give up and cast away my confidence that has a great recompense of reward.

If there were scientific evidence for God's existence, everyone would choose God even the wicked or evil people. If any comes to God he must believe that God is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I believe you are better off going back to being angry & bitter with God than to insult Him by saying He doesn't exist. This type of denial my friend is truly the greatest attack on ones own character; it is to deny that God exist for we are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image and likness of God

I did call Kent Hovind a terrible person and I'm not sure by what you mean when you say things are not always as they seem. He was tried in a court of law and found guilty, are you suggesting they made a mistake and sentenced him to a decade in prison unjustly? I was an atheist for a decade before I knew Richard Dawkins existed so that rules out your influence hypothesis. I never suggested you were uneducated, I just said you didn't have a post-secondary education in a scientific field. This is probably why you don't understand evolution and think it requires faith to trust in the evidence.

If you truly believe I am better of lying to myself and being angry and bitter to be a believer, you wish for me to be as unhappy as possible. You would rather me (and others) to live a miserable life and believe in god then live a happy life without that belief. I don't even know how to respond to this because I was starting to believe you were a nice rational person. What if I said, I don't care how happy your god makes you, you have to stop believing in him now. If god is what makes you happy then keep believing, I would never tell anyone they should be unhappy. This may be the main difference between us, you want people to believe despite happiness and I want people to be happy as long as they are true to themselves. I hope all theists don't think like you because if they do this world will never be a happy place.

Yes, I believe 10 years is an unjust sentence. You said he was a terrible person for lying about his taxes, and yet you said everyone lies. Does that mean you believe everyone is terrible people? So just how does that make you a happy person? The Bible teaches us to love and think the best about every person and not to judge them like you're doing.
You say the Bible has to be followed and you can't pick and chose. The Bible is a history book that records the evil & good works of man with God's interaction. It is not perfect without translation errors or interpolations and even abrogations like the Muslims claim of the Quran which is bogus.
Everyone in life is fighting a rough battle and everyone suffers to one degree or another. Even people with all the money in the world take their own lives because they are unhappy. IMO, God has created us with a void in our heart that needs to be filled. We have the choice of what to fill it with. I choose to fill it with God's Spirit. If I didn't I would probably fill it with lust and greed. Someone asked a billionaire "What would make you happy?" He said "another billon"
If you are so happy being an atheist, why doesn't it show in your life and in your correspondences to me?
We all suffer and die, but after that comes the judgment. Our life is so short here; It's a vapor. You think we die and that's it?

[Polyatheist]

Yes, I believe 10 years is an unjust sentence. You said he was a terrible person for lying about his taxes, and yet you said everyone lies. Does that mean you believe everyone is terrible people? So just how does that make you a happy person? The Bible teaches us to love and think the best about every person and not to judge them like you're doing.
You say the Bible has to be followed and you can't pick and chose. The Bible is a history book that records the evil & good works of man with God's interaction. It is not perfect without translation errors or interpolations and even abrogations like the Muslims claim of the Quran which is bogus.
Everyone in life is fighting a rough battle and everyone suffers to one degree or another. Even people with all the money in the world take their own lives because they are unhappy. IMO, God has created us with a void in our heart that needs to be filled. We have the choice of what to fill it with. I choose to fill it with God's Spirit. If I didn't I would probably fill it with lust and greed. Someone asked a billionaire "What would make you happy?" He said "another billon"
If you are so happy being an atheist, why doesn't it show in your life and in your correspondences to me?
We all suffer and die, but after that comes the judgment. Our life is so short here; It's a vapor. You think we die and that's it?

I can't respond seriously to your posts anymore so I'm just going to point out some things that you have overlooked:

This is not:

Yes, I believe 10 years is an unjust sentence. You said he was a terrible person for lying about his taxes, and yet you said everyone lies.

What this says:
""Since January 2007, Hovind has been serving a ten-year prison sentence after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including 12 tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents, and 45 counts of structuring cash transactions. He is incarcerated at the FPC Satellite Camp of the ADX Florence prison in Florence, Colorado."


This:

The Bible teaches us to love and think the best about every person and not to judge them like you're doing.

Contradicts this (your telling me I'm not happy wtf?):

If you are so happy being an atheist, why doesn't it show in your life and in your correspondences to me?

It also contradicts this:

I believe you are better off going back to being angry & bitter with God than to insult Him by saying He doesn't exist.

It can also be said that it contradicts this as well (because you have no idea whether we will actually be judged, you just like to think it):

We all suffer and die, but after that comes the judgment.

This:

I choose to fill it with God's Spirit. If I didn't I would probably fill it with lust and greed.

Means you need god to be a good person, while most people can be a good person without him.

This is the same thing muslims would say about the Qur'an:

You say the Bible has to be followed and you can't pick and chose. The Bible is a history book that records the evil & good works of man with God's interaction.

And this is what muslims would say about the bible:

It is not perfect without translation errors or interpolations and even abrogations like the Muslims claim of the Quran which is bogus.

[Burninglight]

I can't respond seriously to your posts anymore so I'm just going to point out some things that you have overlooked:

You mean you were serious before?

Yes, I believe 10 years is an unjust sentence. You said he was a terrible person for lying about his taxes, and yet you said everyone lies.

Contradicts this (your telling me I'm not happy wtf?):

It seems like you're the one making the contradictions.

I don't understand what you mean here or how you see contradictions
I should be using that acronyns on you.

If you are so happy being an atheist, why doesn't it show in your life and in your correspondences to me?

I didn't say you weren't happy I asked why doesn't it show?

It also contradicts this:

I believe you are better off going back to being angry & bitter with God than to insult Him by saying He doesn't exist.

Well, yea. IMO, I see more hope for someone who is angry and bitter at God. I would rather have you be angry at me than pretend or really believe I didn't exist.

It can also be said that it contradicts this as well (because you have no idea whether we will actually be judged, you just like to think it):

We all suffer and die, but after that comes the judgment.

I would prefer not to be judged.
This:

I choose to fill it with God's Spirit. If I didn't I would probably fill it with lust and greed.

Means you need god to be a good person, while most people can be a good person without him. Pfft, even though they are liars?
That is right I need God to be good.
This is the same thing muslims would say about the Qur'an:

You say the Bible has to be followed and you can't pick and chose. The Bible is a history book that records the evil & good works of man with God's interaction.

The Muslims don't say that about the Quran.

And this is what muslims would say about the bible:

It is perfect without translation errors or interpolations and even abrogations like the Muslims claim of the Quran which is bogus.

[/quote]Writing like this is confusing I am not able to make my point. What I am trying to say is Muslims are against the Bible because they say it is corrupted. They say the Quran is not corrupted, but that is not true. The Quran contradicts the Bible. The Quran was suppose to confirm it not usurp it. The originals were burned, but Christians have many copies to the Bible to compare and contrast wo Scholars know what the abrogation or interpolations are; this cannot be said of the Quran

[His Name Is John]

This thread makes me sad. Two people who have little respect for one another committing logical fallacy's left and right. The thread has moved totally off topic and is now discussing some kind of religion vs. atheism. Come on both you guys, you should be better than this!

Anyway, bringing this back on topic:

I don't think something needs to have an ethical code that you agree with in order for it to be a religion. Religions are just life philosophies (in my mind) which often involve a belief in a deity.

I think it is a religion as much as most paganism. Its a different culture to the one I am used to and thus it might not make as much sense, but no doubt to those who follow it, it does make sense.

[Polyatheist]

This thread makes me sad. Two people who have little respect for one another committing logical fallacy's left and right.

This statement about logical fallacies is actually a logical fallacy in and of itself (irony!).

The thread has moved totally off topic and is now discussing some kind of religion vs. atheism. Come on both you guys, you should be better than this!

I think the topic was finished when the OP left, we were having a good discussion in the being before it spiraled down into one giant ad hominem about atheists (apparently) being miserable without god.

Anyway, bringing this back on topic:

I don't think something needs to have an ethical code that you agree with in order for it to be a religion. Religions are just life philosophies (in my mind) which often involve a belief in a deity.

I think it is a religion as much as most paganism. Its a different culture to the one I am used to and thus it might not make as much sense, but no doubt to those who follow it, it does make sense.

If Jediism can be a religion why not anything anyone can think of.