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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:28 pm  What empirical evidence could there be for God? Reply with quote

In my years of debating God's existence (both as an evangelical Christian and an atheist), I have heard countless philosophical arguments for the existence of God. The Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), Anselm's Ontological Argument, the Teleological Argument, and the Moral Argument, among others, all seek to establish God's existence through the use of pure logic and reasoning. However, I have yet to see a Christian put forth an empirical case for God's existence (empirical, in this case, means physical, testable, analyzable by science). In fact, I don't feel that it is even possible, in principle, to put forth an empirical argument for God's existence, because of the common properties assigned to God (i.e., omnipresence, omniscience, timelessness, etc.).

So, for the debate question: What empirical evidence could there be for God? How would we discover this evidence? How could we determine it pointed to a God rather than a naturalistic entity?

For the sake of this discussion, a definition of God:

(1) A single, supernatural being that created our universe
(2) A personal mind with thoughts, feelings, emotions, and plans
(3) A maximally benevolent, morally righteous entity
(4) An omnipresent, omniscient entity
(5) An eternal being, the "first cause" of reality."
(
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:07 pm
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spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:24 pm
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haven wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?


Jesus Christ.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:26 pm
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spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?


Jesus Christ.


What evidence do you have that the claims the Bible makes about Jesus Christ are true? If you say something akin to "the Bible is true because of Jesus," or "Jesus is true because of the Bible," that is circular reasoning and logically invalid. You need to support your assertions using outside evidence, evidence that does not come from the Bible.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:27 pm
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spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?


Jesus Christ.


Just how is this showing the bible is accurate?? Please elaborate and back up your claim

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:40 pm
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haven wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?


Jesus Christ.


What evidence do you have that the claims the Bible makes about Jesus Christ are true? If you say something akin to "the Bible is true because of Jesus," or "Jesus is true because of the Bible," that is circular reasoning and logically invalid. You need to support your assertions using outside evidence, evidence that does not come from the Bible.


This is why I said what I did about worldview. For the Christian the Bible is empirical evidence that God exists. No amount of outside evidence is going to be enough for you. Within the context of this debate topic, I believe I have answered all five of the proofs that were put forth. I have no obligation to present something outside of the Bible because I stated what the empirical evidence is and where it comes from. If you want more evidence that this is true, then read the Bible yourself.

And before you do, make sure and pray this something like this:

Heavenly Father,
I have a desire to know the truth. I want to know if there really is a God who created all things. So Lord if you exist, and you have revealed yourself to the world through the Holy Scriptures, I pray that you would reveal yourself to me as I read the Bible. Amen

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:45 pm
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spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


So then you can explain to us which of the many versions of Christianity, using which of the many versions of the Bible, and which of the many interpretations of that Bible is the only objective truth based on empirical evidence. Just iron out a few of those pesky little details for us.

... or is this just an opinion?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:46 pm
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spayne wrote:

This is why I said what I did about worldview.


So, you can't support your beliefs with evidence? Then how can you say they are the objective truth?

Quote:
For the Christian the Bible is empirical evidence that God exists.


That is circular reasoning. The truth of the Bible is contingent upon its congruence with reality. There is no way to determine the accuracy of the Bible without appealing to outside evidence.

Quote:
No amount of outside evidence is going to be enough for you.


Try me.

Quote:
Within the context of this debate topic, I believe I have answered all five of the proofs that were put forth. I have no obligagtion to present something outside of the Bible because I stated what the empirical evidence is and where it comes from. If you want more evidence that this is true, then read the Bible yourself.


You, of course, are under no obligation to provide any information. However, I see literally no reason to believe the Bible is true without corroborating evidence.

I've read the Bible from cover to cover, many times over. I know that, while it is (for the most part) beautiful literature, it is chock full of mistakes, errors, mistranslations, myths, and fabrications.

Quote:
And before you do, make sure and pray this something like this:

Heavenly Father,
I have a desire to know the truth. I want to know if there really is a God who created all things. So Lord if you exist, and you have revealed yourself to the world through the Holy Scriptures, I pray that you would reveal yourself to me as I read the Bible. Amen


I've prayed that prayer several times during my seeking/deconversion process (which took over a year). Silence. Evidence. Atheism. In that order.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:50 pm
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No amount of outside evidence is going to be enough for you.


GOD himself might help with that.. Pantheists proved to me that their GOD exists.. So what's your excuse? Other than that, you are right. Why? Well if you point to a rabbit, I will tell you that is only evidence of the rabbits existence. If you point to the Universe, well, that's only evidence of the Universe's existence. Hence, where is that GOD of yours? So yeah, you need to be specific of what evidence you are talking about here. Evidence that can actually substantiate and validate the existence of your supposed deity.

Example:

Quote:
For the Christian the Bible is empirical evidence that God exists.


This is only evidence of a book... So is this evidence of pixie fairies?:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=pixie+fairy+book&hl=en&prmd=imv...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:52 pm
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spayne wrote:


What evidence do you have that the Bible is accurate?


Jesus Christ.[/quote]

What evidence do you have that the claims the Bible makes about Jesus Christ are true? If you say something akin to "the Bible is true because of Jesus," or "Jesus is true because of the Bible," that is circular reasoning and logically invalid. You need to support your assertions using outside evidence, evidence that does not come from the Bible.[/quote]

This is why I said what I did about worldview. For the Christian the Bible is empirical evidence that God exists. No amount of outside evidence is going to be enough for you. Within the context of this debate topic, I believe I have answered all five of the proofs that were put forth. I have no obligation to present something outside of the Bible because I stated what the empirical evidence is and where it comes from. If you want more evidence that this is true, then read the Bible yourself.

And before you do, make sure and pray this something like this:

Heavenly Father,
I have a desire to know the truth. I want to know if there really is a God who created all things. So Lord if you exist, and you have revealed yourself to the world through the Holy Scriptures, I pray that you would reveal yourself to me as I read the Bible. Amen[/quote]

it seems rather.. circular to me. 'The bible is true because the bible says it's true'.

If you don't start with the assumption that the bible is true, then, the circle is broken.

A series of unsupported claims, even if accepted, is not what is known as 'empirical evidence'. What you seem to have is a statement of faith.. not of facts.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:57 pm
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Oldfarmhouse wrote:
spayne wrote:
haven wrote:
Spayne, do you view Christianity/God as a set of truth claims or simply a "personal path?"

If Christianity/God is simply a personal path, then it is subjective and no more true than atheism, Hinduism, Paganism or any other (non)belief system.

If Christianity/God is a set of truth claims, then it must be supported with evidence.

Remember, truth is objective, not subjective. If one wishes to declare God/Christianity true, he/she must put forward some supporting evidence.


Christianity is not only objective truth, it is the only purely objective truth, and is personified by the One who said "I am the truth." Truth is not a claim nor is it an idea. It is a person, and his name is Jesus Christ.

Or consider it this way: if there was a God who really did create the Universe, human beings, and all of life as we know it, then it would be the responsibility of that God to reveal himself to people. He would have to take great care in revealing his character, his purposes, and his expectations to mankind so that they could know him. The Bible reveals all of these things. It is the message of God to mankind, and it answers all five of the qualities you expressed in your debate question. But wait, it gets better! Instead of just telling people about his character, God eventually comes into the world and reveals himself directly to the world, through the person of Jesus Christ.

The Bible, in this regard, IS the empirical evidence for God.


So then you can explain to us which of the many versions of Christianity, using which of the many versions of the Bible, and which of the many interpretations of that Bible is the only objective truth based on empirical evidence. Just iron out a few of those pesky little details for us.

... or is this just an opinion?


Not an opinion. I'm just the messenger.

There is only one form of Christianity: the one that says Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And while there are certainly many different Bible translations to choose from, they are taken from only a small group of manuscripts, of which there is very little variation. The Dead Sea Scroll discoveries resolved all this apparent manuscript discrepancy that nonbelievers like to talk so much about. Don't believe the hype!

And for the record, this is a debate topic about the empirical evidence for God. I am well within the scope of the debate topic to be referencing the Bible, and citing it as empirical evidence. As already stated, the Bible addresses perfectly the five different proofs for God that were introduced in the debate topic.

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