SPOILER ALERT! There is no Santa Clause!

[Coldfire]

I know this is a somewhat silly topic to discuss, but I honestly feel a little guilty about not continuing this storytelling tradition that my family and millions of other families keep alive. And what better time of the year than now?

So is it wrong to tell your little one that you "will buy them presents" instead of telling them that whole tale about Santa and his elves who live in the North Pole? I want my daughter to experience the good things of the holidays, the music, the cheer, the smells, the food and the toys. I loved these things growing up and I want her to love it to and have good memories too, but I don’t want to spin a yarn about it... I remember when I figured out there was no Santa, it didn’t really bother me. But on the other hand there was a lot of excitement when I just "KNEW I heard Santa’s reindeer on the roof!" and ran to look out the window.

So is it wrong to deny her that one piece of excitement about there being a jolly fat man who gives her presents?

[McCulloch]

One does not normally include the spoiler itself at the same level as the spoiler alert. That sort of nullifies the point of the alert. This works better: Spoiler Alert (highlight the following text to view) There is no Santa Claus. end of spoiler.

Secondly, the jolly old elf is Santa Claus aka Saint Nicholas or in Dutch Sinterklaas. Santa as in saint. Klaus is a German given name and surname. It originated as a short form of Nikolaus, a German form of the given name Nicholas. The Santa Clause was a cheesy Christmas movie and two related sequels with Tim Allen.

Kids love pretend. It does not diminish the enjoyment of Christmas one bit that they don't really believe. On the other hand, if you wish to raise your children as theists, Santa Claus is good practice. He has some of the characteristics of deity (he knows if you've been bad or god and rewards or punishes and he has superhuman magical powers), without the scary bits (no blood sacrifice and no eternal torture). But more important, it give them a chance to practice faith. Suppress doubt and reason and you will be rewarded. If you don't happen to believe, pretend that you do for the sake of those who still do believe. These are great skills needed for potential church members. You cannot start developing them too young.

[Coldfire]

One does not normally include the spoiler itself at the same level as the spoiler alert. That sort of nullifies the point of the alert. This works better: Spoiler Alert (highlight the following text to view) There is no Santa Claus. end of spoiler.

Yeah, well it was meant as a joke anyway… I hope nobody actually believes Santa Clause exists (speaking of the jolly fat man who wears red and white, lives in the North Pole with elves and magical flying reindeer, and has a plethora of super powers to include: super speed and/or teleportation, mass distortion and ESP and maybe even lasers from his eyes )

Secondly, the jolly old elf is Santa Claus aka Saint Nicholas or in Dutch Sinterklaas. Santa as in saint. Klaus is a German given name and surname. It originated as a short form of Nikolaus, a German form of the given name Nicholas. The Santa Clause was a cheesy Christmas movie and two related sequels with Tim Allen.

Thanks for the history lesson. Whether or not Saint Nicholas existed or who he was isn’t relevant to my question however, I was referring to the myth of Santa Clause as in the view currently held in the eyes of millions of children in the United States. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding; I should have mentioned this in the OP.

Kids love pretend. It does not diminish the enjoyment of Christmas one bit that they don't really believe.

This is good, I like pretend too on occasion I don’t believe children know it as “pretend� though. And also, I would rather not introduce the Santa Clause myth altogether.

Would I be depriving my little one of the excitement, or is my decision moral as it is “not lying to her� so-to-speak? Also if she doesn’t believe in Santa, what’s to say she wouldn’t spoil someone else’s kid’s enjoyment by inadvertently divulging this information to other kids? Should I encourage the myth for the sole reason of not infringing upon other kids enjoyment?

On the other hand, if you wish to raise your children as theists, Santa Claus is good practice. He has some of the characteristics of deity (he knows if you've been bad or god and rewards or punishes and he has superhuman magical powers), without the scary bits (no blood sacrifice and no eternal torture). But more important, it give them a chance to practice faith. Suppress doubt and reason and you will be rewarded. If you don't happen to believe, pretend that you do for the sake of those who still do believe. These are great skills needed for potential church members. You cannot start developing them too young.

YEESH! I don’t know if you were trying to make it sound bad or if it’s just me, but this “practice� for raising a kid as a theist doesn’t appeal to me at all.

I would like to allow my daughter to choose for herself whether or not she wants to believe in a deity or say “karma" for instance, but I think it might be a learned behavior and she may initially pick up whatever beliefs and lifestyle that I or her mother chooses. I would hope that she would eventually be able to apply logic and reason to her initial beliefs brought on by this proposed learned behavior though and either strengthen what she has gathered from her peers, or develop her own logic based theories and beliefs in and of this world.

Going back to the topic of Santa Clause:

If I encourage the myth, I'm going against my desire to have my daughter choose for herself. Then again, she’s very young and has an imagination, so what harm could it be?

I feel I should give a bit of a background so you can see why I’m making such a big deal about this.

I come to this site often even though I don’t post much, mainly when seeking guidance from intellectual people and just because I find viewing debates and discussions fun.


My ex wife and I were talking about Christmas and she mentioned Santa Clause to our daughter, to which I told her that I don’t think its right. We were in disagreement, and when I tried to explain my reasoning, her brain apparently went to crackling and she zoned out.


I realize that I am not always right, so I considered this as the possible case and sought this forums opinion on the matter.

[McCulloch]

Thanks for the history lesson.

It was meant to be a spelling lesson, with the historical background. My fault. Like they say, "Too much detail!"
It is Santa Claus without the letter e not Santa Clause.

I like pretend too on occasion I don’t believe children know it as “pretend� though. And also, I would rather not introduce the Santa Clause myth altogether.

My kids always knew that it was pretend. It did not seem to harm them. And they never had the trauma or let-down of finding out. They also know that [Spoiler Alert] Harry Potter, superheros, comic characters, most stories in movies and many books, and the characters in Sesame Street [/Spoiler Alert]are all pretend.

Would I be depriving my little one of the excitement, or is my decision moral as it is “not lying to her� so-to-speak?

I really don't think that we have deprived our kids of anything. Neither do they, now that they are adults.

Also if she doesn’t believe in Santa, what’s to say she wouldn’t spoil someone else’s kid’s enjoyment by inadvertently divulging this information to other kids?

Not my problem. Although it is a good lesson for how to handle the social situation of when others believe differently than you do. "Your friend Sean thinks that Santa is real. What do you think you should say to him about it? "

On the other hand, if you wish to raise your children as theists, Santa Claus is good practice. He has some of the characteristics of deity (he knows if you've been bad or god and rewards or punishes and he has superhuman magical powers), without the scary bits (no blood sacrifice and no eternal torture). But more important, it give them a chance to practice faith. Suppress doubt and reason and you will be rewarded. If you don't happen to believe, pretend that you do for the sake of those who still do believe. These are great skills needed for potential church members. You cannot start developing them too young.

YEESH! I don’t know if you were trying to make it sound bad or if it’s just me, but this “practice� for raising a kid as a theist doesn’t appeal to me at all.

Yeah, I need to lay off of the sarcasm and hyperbole a bit. Lots of otherwise well-adjusted people survived the Santa myth as children.

I would like to allow my daughter to choose for herself whether or not she wants to believe in a deity or say “karma" for instance, but I think it might be a learned behavior and she may initially pick up whatever beliefs and lifestyle that I or her mother chooses. I would hope that she would eventually be able to apply logic and reason to her initial beliefs brought on by this proposed learned behavior though and either strengthen what she has gathered from her peers, or develop her own logic based theories and beliefs in and of this world.

That is a great parental attitude. What you need to do is to help her to develop critical thinking skills. This is not done by pretending what is not real is real.

My ex wife and I were talking about Christmas and she mentioned Santa Clause to our daughter, to which I told her that I don’t think its right. We were in disagreement, and when I tried to explain my reasoning, her brain apparently went to crackling and she zoned out.

I see no reason not to participate in the Santa Claus thing. Take her to see a few different department store Santa Clauses. Don't lie to her when she figures things out. You know, like, "this man isn't the real Santa, but he works for him" . I think that the worst thing to do is to suppress her developing critical skills. If she asks, "Is Santa real?" do not lie, do not keep making things up to try to rationalize the belief, unless you wish to raise an apologist for one of the major religions. Some of the rationalizations I have heard used for children and Santa are not far off those used by the supporters of Flood Cosmology.

[Coldfire]

very good points Mccullough, thanks for your input.

It is very important to me for my daughter to be a critical thinker and use her brain in life.

I think that if she believes in Santa Claus by what her mom tells her, than theres no harm done. And i wont test her belief mischeiviously, that is just disturbing.

she should have her fun, and be able to pretend Santa is real if she wants.

[johnmarc]

He [Santa Claus] has some of the characteristics of deity (he knows if you've been bad or god and rewards or punishes and he has superhuman magical powers), .

As long as we are on spelling lessons. If Santa can do this, then he can clear up all of this God speculation going on in this forum once and for all. I, for one, am willing to let him have a go at it.

Don't spank me for this, I am just trying to be cute and not nasty.

[bernee51]

He [Santa Claus] has some of the characteristics of deity (he knows if you've been bad or god and rewards or punishes and he has superhuman magical powers), .

As long as we are on spelling lessons. If Santa can do this, then he can clear up all of this God speculation going on in this forum once and for all. I, for one, am willing to let him have a go at it.

Don't spank me for this, I am just trying to be cute and not nasty.

hey...well picked up...

take that McC!

*ROTFLMAO*

[Choir Loft]

I know this is a somewhat silly topic to discuss, but I honestly feel a little guilty about not continuing this storytelling tradition that my family and millions of other families keep alive. And what better time of the year than now?

So is it wrong to tell your little one that you "will buy them presents" instead of telling them that whole tale about Santa and his elves who live in the North Pole? I want my daughter to experience the good things of the holidays, the music, the cheer, the smells, the food and the toys. I loved these things growing up and I want her to love it to and have good memories too, but I don’t want to spin a yarn about it... I remember when I figured out there was no Santa, it didn’t really bother me. But on the other hand there was a lot of excitement when I just "KNEW I heard Santa’s reindeer on the roof!" and ran to look out the window.

So is it wrong to deny her that one piece of excitement about there being a jolly fat man who gives her presents?

When I was old enough to reason I asked my mother if there really was a Santa Clause. Her answer was true and wise.

"AS LONG AS SOMEONE LOVES YOU THERE WILL BE A SANTA CLAUSE."

They are good words for adults as well as children.

[Ernestalice]

I know this is a somewhat silly topic to discuss, but I honestly feel a little guilty about not continuing this storytelling tradition that my family and millions of other families keep alive. And what better time of the year than now?

So is it wrong to tell your little one that you "will buy them presents" instead of telling them that whole tale about Santa and his elves who live in the North Pole? I want my daughter to experience the good things of the holidays, the music, the cheer, the smells, the food and the toys. I loved these things growing up and I want her to love it to and have good memories too, but I don’t want to spin a yarn about it... I remember when I figured out there was no Santa, it didn’t really bother me. But on the other hand there was a lot of excitement when I just "KNEW I heard Santa’s reindeer on the roof!" and ran to look out the window.

So is it wrong to deny her that one piece of excitement about there being a jolly fat man who gives her presents?

Well, actually I didn't grow up in a Santa Claus' or even giving presents tradition. But, how about telling the stories? I mean, folk stories, legends, myths, Cinderella, just as a mere happy childhood stories. I think it's important for children to have a dream. And besides, it will be kinda sad if the other children know and only your child doesn't know about it.

[dianaiad]

I know this is a somewhat silly topic to discuss, but I honestly feel a little guilty about not continuing this storytelling tradition that my family and millions of other families keep alive. And what better time of the year than now?

So is it wrong to tell your little one that you "will buy them presents" instead of telling them that whole tale about Santa and his elves who live in the North Pole? I want my daughter to experience the good things of the holidays, the music, the cheer, the smells, the food and the toys. I loved these things growing up and I want her to love it to and have good memories too, but I don’t want to spin a yarn about it... I remember when I figured out there was no Santa, it didn’t really bother me. But on the other hand there was a lot of excitement when I just "KNEW I heard Santa’s reindeer on the roof!" and ran to look out the window.

So is it wrong to deny her that one piece of excitement about there being a jolly fat man who gives her presents?

Yes. It is.

Why? Because without exercising imagination, it grows rusty and useless--like old cars and unused muscles. People with no imagination are boring. They are, in fact, automatons, not people. Computers.

Imagination, in children, is exercised by 'make believe' and play. The monsters under the bed, the fairies in the garden, the transformer battle grounds, Muppets...all these things are 'imagination gyms.'

So is Santa Claus. As you can see, I not only believe in Santa Claus, I formed a group (small, but vital!) here on this forum dedicated to the idea that Santa Claus is---well, here is the description for the group itself:

We have a group with a great many members: 'Does not believe in Santa," which takes the strictest and most childhood killing position imaginable regarding all things Santa...and fantasy: "You must declare that you do not believe in Santa Claus. You also declare that you believe that deceiving children into literal belief in Santa is a bad thing. You believe that it is wrong to encourage belief in things you know to be untrue."
I would like to form a group called "Believes in Santa, fairies and monsters under the bed." If that's too long, we can leave it in 'Believes in Santa."

I think that this group should be open to all members who believe that imagination and joy in childhood can only be enhanced by the idea of Santa, fairies and defeating monsters under the bed, and who also understand that the way to talk to children about Santa is..."he's real, until he's you." Children and fantasy are joyous things. Let's not make them curmudgeons before they are six!

And yeah, imagination is an extremely valuable asset to critical thinkers.