Woo's Woo in Christianity

Oldfarmhouse · Post by **Oldfarmhouse** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:09 pm

One of the problems for those who adhere to Christian doctrine (any doctrine, really) is the existence of people who were at one time strong believers in the faith and then at some point abandoned it. The reason that this is a difficult issue for the believers is that former members often provide detailed coherent descriptions of how they came to question, doubt, and eventually reject the doctrine.

Almost invariably the reasons for leaving differ between ex-members and current members. Former Christians often describe a process of investigation into the claims made by the group and ended up with very unimpressive answers. Ex-Christians discuss education and how the increase in knowledge and exposure to different cultures and ideas renders the theology useless to accurately describe the world.

On the other side Christians give very different reasons that people leave the faith. Invariably members of the faith will blame the person who left the church and never admit to the possibility theat the doctrine is inadequate. I will say that there are exceptions -- if they donâ€™t blame the person who left then itâ€™s that crafty devil who led them astray.

For discussion -- why do you think Christians become ex-Christians?

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:22 pm

EduChris wrote:
catalyst wrote:...Australian accreditation IS internationally recognised, where as US accreditation is NOT...
That's an interesting claim, given that graduate work from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and numerous other similarly accredited graduate schools do transfer to the best graduate schools in North America and Europe and elsewhere around the globe.

I was not aware (and indeed I doubt) that such credit goes unrecognized in Australia.

Is there someone else with credibility here, preferably from Australia, who can shed light on this issue?

There are other Australians on here. Mithrae is one, Bernee51 is another, I think Filthy Tugboat is an aussie too as well as IAAIM... I know he was part of the Catholic Theological process as he and I have discussed at length the differences between the Catholic formal education here in AU vs the protestant "version".

Apart from that, you can always try WIKI.. that seems to be your "go to place" for all realms of your "knowledge". WHY a self professed academic would rely on it... I don't know... especially when it is patently clear that even WHEN citing it, they haven't read the entire link OR the references attached... ...different strokes I suppose.

Anyway, please feel free to ask them... I have no issue with that as I know I am right in this regard... TOO.

Oh, it may also help if you C&P'd my COMPLETE point as to that IN CONTEXT, rather than just plucking part of the sentence out.

If it does help you though, here are A MULTITUDE of INTERNATIONALLY unaccredited schools of Theology not only in the US but other places around the world.. NOTE... NOT ONE is AUSTRALIAN. THAT was my point, rather than what you what YOU decided you WANTED to make, my point.

Just for those not necessarily inclined to look back. I stated that AUSTRALIAN accreditation's ARE internationally recognised, no matter WHAT field. US accreditations however are NOT internationally recognised, no matter in WHAT field. I mentioned theology specifically here though as this thread RELATES to it, specifically.

Here to boot IS the complete paragraph...

Well given that, I suppose it is difficult for you or anyone else to gauge what is taught at theology colleges here in Australia and the methods used here or what is required of you to obtain your degrees. Having had to learn just how different the US education system is as a whole to that here in Australia, means at least I understand where the insular mentality as to what consitutes an "education" comes from with at least some americans. I suppose it would seem "strange" to you that here IN Australia to get your M.Div, the standard IS to learn at the very least, Hebrew, considering it is not part and parcel of the courses supplied in the US. That also may have a lot to do with WHY Australian accreditation IS internationally recognised, where as US accreditation is NOT. It seems there is far more complexity in courses across the board, not just related to Theology. Back to theology though, full time M.Div alone is a 3 year course here and can take near a decade to complete part time. It is THOROUGH, not jst some pissant pretense at "understanding". As part OF my study I opted to spend over 12 months IN Israel, to KNOW the language further. I stayed in Tzfat (Safed) and got to understand and appreciate the language even more by doing so. What can I say, I am one for immersion technique. I suppose to those relying purely on the theoretical WOULD find that strange too.

I suppose though if people took the time to look outside their own little pre-conceived boxes of " I do this so this is the only way it CAN be done", then they WOULD see that things ARE done a lot differently outside what they perceive to "KNOW".

http://www.foreigncredits.com/Resources ... versities/

Even though with your precious Yale..et al... they STILL have to complete tests here IN AU to GET work. Like it or not. Australia is VERY stringent as to who they allow to work here on a professional level and who they don't.

I know for example to teach in private schools in California at least, one does not even have to have a teaching degree. See how far that would get you in AU... no where.

Another example of how Australian accreditation is ...my oldest daughter has multiple accreditation in childcare and early learning.. as such as they are with an Australian accreditation, she can work near ANYWHERE in the world. The only other thing she would need to work ANYWHERE in the world even as a teacher, would be an Australian accredited TES (which is global recognition) to even teach English in ANY other country, just with Childcare and early learning under her belt. She certainly could not be an English teacher here IN AU, with just that.

Catalyst.

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:12 am

phoenixrising wrote:My reasons for leaving organized christian church [been in many denoms over a 37 year period] are different from most other x-churchians` reasons.
Doctrine had little, if anything, to do with it.
Attitudes and behaviors of fellow believers had everything to do with it.
Especially their AngloAmerican worldview of superiority, and their habit of regarding [and often treating] anyone who is an "other" as less than themselves, inferior or even suhuman.

I do understand where you are coming from and I have to say, even such a mentality is quite self evident of many of the self professed "christians" on this site alone....even those whom consider themselves, not of the "fundy" ranks...but more so, "liberal".

I am a follower of Creator Jesus, was before I became a churchian, and am remaining so after I have left where I was never really welcome in the first place.
I loathe being intrusive........

You have to go with what feels right for you I suppose. If what you believe brings you some happiness, it certainly is not for me to determine whether that is right or wrong for you.

According to most christians I am not one of them. They regard me as pagan and heretic.

Would that be most christians you personally know, rather than most christians...period?

True christians, I have been taught all my life, follow Jesus in the context of the [only] valid christian culture - AngloAmerican culture.
If people from non-AngloAmerican cultures want to follow Jesus, they are required to first reject their own culture and worldview, give up their own language, forget who they are and what people they come from, and then submit themselves to total assimilation into that unholy hodgepodge called the [Anglo]American meltingpot.
I hate to break you the bad news :
There are some rocks that do not melt in that ugly stew!

phoenix

You should be able to believe what you choose to without condition but more so, without the conditioning, phoenix.

Now, I don't personally believe that the jesus character in the bible actually lived at all. That said, I do wonder if those calling themselves "true christians" would try and make bible jesus assimilate to what THEY think. I don't see any "true christians" out there making too much of an attempt to understand what "jesus" allegedly said, in what would be considered his native tongue. Remember too, more than a few westernised christian denominations also have bible jesus as being a fair haired, blue-eyed looking fellow.

Now, how THAT works when we are supposedly dealing with a character born in the middle east to a Jewish mother.... I am not sure.

Please try to not let those caught up in their own headspace.. get you down.

Catalyst.

Flail · Post by **Flail** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:21 am

catalyst wrote:
EduChris wrote:
catalyst wrote:...Australian accreditation IS internationally recognised, where as US accreditation is NOT...
That's an interesting claim, given that graduate work from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and numerous other similarly accredited graduate schools do transfer to the best graduate schools in North America and Europe and elsewhere around the globe.

I was not aware (and indeed I doubt) that such credit goes unrecognized in Australia.

Is there someone else with credibility here, preferably from Australia, who can shed light on this issue?
There are other Australians on here. Mithrae is one, Bernee51 is another, I think Filthy Tugboat is an aussie too as well as IAAIM... I know he was part of the Catholic Theological process as he and I have discussed at length the differences between the Catholic formal education here in AU vs the protestant "version".

Apart from that, you can always try WIKI.. that seems to be your "go to place" for all realms of your "knowledge". WHY a self professed academic would rely on it... I don't know... especially when it is patently clear that even WHEN citing it, they haven't read the entire link OR the references attached... ...different strokes I suppose.

Anyway, please feel free to ask them... I have no issue with that as I know I am right in this regard... TOO.

Oh, it may also help if you C&P'd my COMPLETE point as to that IN CONTEXT, rather than just plucking part of the sentence out.

If it does help you though, here are A MULTITUDE of INTERNATIONALLY unaccredited schools of Theology not only in the US but other places around the world.. NOTE... NOT ONE is AUSTRALIAN. THAT was my point, rather than what you what YOU decided you WANTED to make, my point.

Just for those not necessarily inclined to look back. I stated that AUSTRALIAN accreditation's ARE internationally recognised, no matter WHAT field. US accreditations however are NOT internationally recognised, no matter in WHAT field. I mentioned theology specifically here though as this thread RELATES to it, specifically.

Here to boot IS the complete paragraph...
Well given that, I suppose it is difficult for you or anyone else to gauge what is taught at theology colleges here in Australia and the methods used here or what is required of you to obtain your degrees. Having had to learn just how different the US education system is as a whole to that here in Australia, means at least I understand where the insular mentality as to what consitutes an "education" comes from with at least some americans. I suppose it would seem "strange" to you that here IN Australia to get your M.Div, the standard IS to learn at the very least, Hebrew, considering it is not part and parcel of the courses supplied in the US. That also may have a lot to do with WHY Australian accreditation IS internationally recognised, where as US accreditation is NOT. It seems there is far more complexity in courses across the board, not just related to Theology. Back to theology though, full time M.Div alone is a 3 year course here and can take near a decade to complete part time. It is THOROUGH, not jst some pissant pretense at "understanding". As part OF my study I opted to spend over 12 months IN Israel, to KNOW the language further. I stayed in Tzfat (Safed) and got to understand and appreciate the language even more by doing so. What can I say, I am one for immersion technique. I suppose to those relying purely on the theoretical WOULD find that strange too.

I suppose though if people took the time to look outside their own little pre-conceived boxes of " I do this so this is the only way it CAN be done", then they WOULD see that things ARE done a lot differently outside what they perceive to "KNOW".

http://www.foreigncredits.com/Resources ... versities/

Even though with your precious Yale..et al... they STILL have to complete tests here IN AU to GET work. Like it or not. Australia is VERY stringent as to who they allow to work here on a professional level and who they don't.

I know for example to teach in private schools in California at least, one does not even have to have a teaching degree. See how far that would get you in AU... no where.

Another example of how Australian accreditation is ...my oldest daughter has multiple accreditation in childcare and early learning.. as such as they are with an Australian accreditation, she can work near ANYWHERE in the world. The only other thing she would need to work ANYWHERE in the world even as a teacher, would be an Australian accredited TES (which is global recognition) to even teach English in ANY other country, just with Childcare and early learning under her belt. She certainly could not be an English teacher here IN AU, with just that.

Catalyst.

Interesting...I think we Americans get stuck on ourselves sometimes...and think the US is the be all end all...as the world 'shrinks' and we get to know one another better, I imagine we will find people are alike all over the world...not better, not worse.

As to educational requirements, it might be easier in AU to be stringent and manage strict requirements, what with your population being only about the population of Texas...in our larger and diverse populace we are finding ourselves 'dumbed down' in many areas as we go forward.

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:40 pm

Flail wrote:

Interesting...I think we Americans get stuck on ourselves sometimes...and think the US is the be all end all...as the world 'shrinks' and we get to know one another better, I imagine we will find people are alike all over the world...not better, not worse.

I agree with you Flail. I suppose if it important enough to someone, they may start to consider on what grounds they DO believe the US is the be all and end all.

One thing though, although I know many Americans do try to get to know others better, there are still a lot that cling to the stereotypical images they have been brought up to "believe" are out there. IS it necessarily the individuals fault? Could be to a point, but if it were not for the WRONG information constantly fed to the American public, courtesy of the Government and media, tv programming, even advertising, then there would be no basis to believe the stereotypes in the first place.

IMO that plays a huge part in the insular mentality. In such a case there is good argument for being a product of ones environment. I have found that when people TRAVEL outside their country's borders, better still their continent's borders, they tend to loosen up and have an entirely different perspective of the world around them. That is my personal observation and from personal experience of course.

As to educational requirements, it might be easier in AU to be stringent and manage strict requirements, what with your population being only about the population of Texas...in our larger and diverse populace we are finding ourselves 'dumbed down' in many areas as we go forward.

The population of Texas is larger than the entire population of Australia by a few mil. people....lol I don't think diversity is the issue though as Australia is by and large a cultural melting pot, and I don't see why a larger population would be excuse or reason for it. Could you explain why you believe it could play part?
I reckon it has to come down to WHY Americans allow themselves to be "dumbed down"...or even if many of them know it is happening? I don't think too many DO know, Flail.. considering in their eyes the US IS the be all and end all.. and therefore "the best"..

There IS evidence to support, it isn't "the best" after all....but this seems to be information they choose to ignore.

How many Americans do you truly believe would WANT to recognise this fact, Flail.

Cat..xx

Abraxas · Post by **Abraxas** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:52 pm

Can I point out, for the sake of accuracy, that link to not accepted foreign credits does not actually show that US credits are not accepted, but rather shows that there are a number of specific institutions in the US that claim to be universities and hand out degrees that are not accredited? The issue there is not that the US isn't accredited, as you claimed, but rather that there exists a large number of degree mills in the US that will fork over degrees in various subjects for minimal work and that these have been well identified and rejected as a source of credit for respected universities.

EDIT: Also, while I was at it, I decided to take a look and see if the claims about Australia not having any unaccredited educational institutions held up. Alas, Illawarra College, Pebble Hills University, Queenston University, Rai University International, Regent International University, and West Coast University all have locations in Australia but are not accredited.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx

Flail · Post by **Flail** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:02 pm

catalyst wrote:Flail wrote:
Interesting...I think we Americans get stuck on ourselves sometimes...and think the US is the be all end all...as the world 'shrinks' and we get to know one another better, I imagine we will find people are alike all over the world...not better, not worse.
I agree with you Flail. I suppose if it important enough to someone, they may start to consider on what grounds they DO believe the US is the be all and end all.

One thing though, although I know many Americans do try to get to know others better, there are still a lot that cling to the stereotypical images they have been brought up to "believe" are out there. IS it necessarily the individuals fault? Could be to a point, but if it were not for the WRONG information constantly fed to the American public, courtesy of the Government and media, tv programming, even advertising, then there would be no basis to believe the stereotypes in the first place.

IMO that plays a huge part in the insular mentality. In such a case there is good argument for being a product of ones environment. I have found that when people TRAVEL outside their country's borders, better still their continent's borders, they tend to loosen up and have an entirely different perspective of the world around them. That is my personal observation and from personal experience of course.

As to educational requirements, it might be easier in AU to be stringent and manage strict requirements, what with your population being only about the population of Texas...in our larger and diverse populace we are finding ourselves 'dumbed down' in many areas as we go forward.
The population of Texas is larger than the entire population of Australia by a few mil. people....lol I don't think diversity is the issue though as Australia is by and large a cultural melting pot, and I don't see why a larger population would be excuse or reason for it. Could you explain why you believe it could play part?
I reckon it has to come down to WHY Americans allow themselves to be "dumbed down"...or even if many of them know it is happening? I don't think too many DO know, Flail.. considering in their eyes the US IS the be all and end all.. and therefore "the best".. There IS evidence to support, it isn't "the best" after all....but this seems to be information they choose to ignore.

How many Americans do you truly believe would WANT to recognise this fact, Flail.

Cat..xx

When you have 300 million people as opposed to 20 million people, odds are that there will be more of the type you describe....I do think there are large numbers of cosmopolitan, urbane, sophisticated, well educated Americans that are not dumbed down and who rail against the dumbing down and who recognize that all is not perfect in the good old USA.

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:04 pm

Abraxas wrote:Can I point out, for the sake of accuracy, that link to not accepted foreign credits does not actually show that US credits are not accepted, but rather shows that there are a number of specific institutions in the US that claim to be universities and hand out degrees that are not accredited? The issue there is not that the US isn't accredited, as you claimed, but rather that there exists a large number of degree mills in the US that will fork over degrees in various subjects for minimal work and that these have been well identified and rejected as a source of credit for respected universities.

That link was in reference to theology for the most part alone. I was pointing out that ALL study in the US is NOT internationally recognised. I brought that up merely because Educhris decided to change the POINT behind my original comment by quoting only one line from the entire paragraph.

IF you read my entire point to Slopeshoulder in the first place, I was merely saying that Australian accreditation in ALL fields and from ALL educational institutes are accepted globally. Anyone with a degree, certificate.. etc obtained IN Australia can get work near anywhere in the world on those credentials ALONE.

BTW,I said "near" everywhere as my daughter is prime example. She was looking into teaching English in Dubai. Her qualifications are SOUND and accepted, but as she is a single woman, they will not allow her to teach there. If however my husband wanted to teach there, they would let him in, in a heartbeat.

Did that clarify it for you, Abraxas?

Catalyst.

Abraxas · Post by **Abraxas** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:19 pm

catalyst wrote:
Abraxas wrote:Can I point out, for the sake of accuracy, that link to not accepted foreign credits does not actually show that US credits are not accepted, but rather shows that there are a number of specific institutions in the US that claim to be universities and hand out degrees that are not accredited? The issue there is not that the US isn't accredited, as you claimed, but rather that there exists a large number of degree mills in the US that will fork over degrees in various subjects for minimal work and that these have been well identified and rejected as a source of credit for respected universities.
That link was in reference to theology for the most part alone.

No, it really isn't. That website is a list of a multitude of different universities, many of which have nothing to do with theology. For instance, Adam Smith University on there does not have a theology course.

I was pointing out that ALL study in the US is NOT internationally recognised.

That would be incorrect. While certainly it is the case not all study in the US is internationally recognized, that is a different proposition from saying all study is not internationally recognized.

I brought that up merely because Educhris decided to change the POINT behind my original comment by quoting only one line from the entire paragraph.

Very well may have, but the fact is the way you are phrasing your claim even now would indicate you are saying that no study in the US is internationally accredited which is just not so.

IF you read my entire point to Slopeshoulder in the first place, I was merely saying that Australian accreditation in ALL fields and from ALL educational institutes are accepted globally. Anyone with a degree, certificate.. etc obtained IN Australia can get work near anywhere in the world on those credentials ALONE.

My point is you have not demonstrated the same is not true for the US. A list of unaccredited institutions in the US not being accepted in no way comments on whether US accreditation holds for all fields and is accepted globally. Your link does not support the premise it does not. You finding a list with a lot of unaccredited schools in the US, just like I found with Australia, does not say anything about the acceptance of the accredited ones.

catalyst · Post by **catalyst** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:19 pm

Abraxas wrote:Can I point out, for the sake of accuracy, that link to not accepted foreign credits does not actually show that US credits are not accepted, but rather shows that there are a number of specific institutions in the US that claim to be universities and hand out degrees that are not accredited? The issue there is not that the US isn't accredited, as you claimed, but rather that there exists a large number of degree mills in the US that will fork over degrees in various subjects for minimal work and that these have been well identified and rejected as a source of credit for respected universities.

EDIT: Also, while I was at it, I decided to take a look and see if the claims about Australia not having any unaccredited educational institutions held up. Alas, Illawarra College, Pebble Hills University, Queenston University, Rai University International, Regent International University, and West Coast University all have locations in Australia but are not accredited.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx

The ones you have shown in reference to Australia are "distance education" via online process. If there is no ABN or ACN attached, they are NOT Australian, hence irrelevant to your argument. They offer INTERNATIONAL accreditation NOT Australian... see the difference?

Also...with Peeble Hill, it most certainly may be in Hutt River Principality, but that little principality is just that, a principality of its own WITHIN the country. It is a "sovereign state"...separate from anything to do with Australia, including Australian Law. Their laws are not observed IN Australia, nor are Australian laws observed within the principality.

If you had been more thorough with your "googling" you would have realised that... perhaps... eventually.

Thank you for showing the information though.

Whether you realise it or not, you are just backing up my point.

Catalyst.

PS. BTW Adam Smith U DOES offere religious studies: IE Theology, and from their own site:

Liberal Arts and Sciences:
ASU offers broad concentrations in the Liberal Arts. Concentrations include humanities, fine arts, music, social sciences, history, natural science, and mathematics. It is possible for a student to develop a major in a specific liberal arts field such as English or biology or religious studies or in interdisciplinary studies in liberal arts or in some specialized field, with the approval of the faculty.

http://www.adamsmith.edu/programs.html

Abraxas · Post by **Abraxas** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:46 pm

catalyst wrote:
Abraxas wrote:Can I point out, for the sake of accuracy, that link to not accepted foreign credits does not actually show that US credits are not accepted, but rather shows that there are a number of specific institutions in the US that claim to be universities and hand out degrees that are not accredited? The issue there is not that the US isn't accredited, as you claimed, but rather that there exists a large number of degree mills in the US that will fork over degrees in various subjects for minimal work and that these have been well identified and rejected as a source of credit for respected universities.

EDIT: Also, while I was at it, I decided to take a look and see if the claims about Australia not having any unaccredited educational institutions held up. Alas, Illawarra College, Pebble Hills University, Queenston University, Rai University International, Regent International University, and West Coast University all have locations in Australia but are not accredited.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.aspx
The ones you have shown in reference to Australia are "distance education" via online process. If there is no ABN or ACN attached, they are NOT Australian, hence irrelevant to your argument. They offer INTERNATIONAL accreditation NOT Australian... see the difference?

They don't offer any accreditation as they are not accredited. They do, however, offer studies in Australia.

Also...with Peeble Hill, it most certainly may be in Hutt River Principality, but that little principality is just that, a principality of its own WITHIN the country. It is a "sovereign state"...separate from anything to do with Australia, including Australian Law. Their laws are not observed IN Australia, nor are Australian laws observed within the principality.

I fail to see the relevance. I'm not arguing that the problem is huge or wide spread, just that your claims all education in Australia is internationally accepted are wrong. You seem to keep moving the goalposts to ever and ever narrower interpretations of your remarks to avoid catching the unfortunate reality that your earlier statements were way too broad to be completely accurate.

If you had been more thorough with your "googling" you would have realised that... perhaps... eventually.

If you had been more careful (and accurate) with your claims, I wouldn't have had to "Google" at all.

Thank you for showing the information though. Whether you realise it or not, you are just backing up my point.

Catalyst.

No, I'm not. And what also isn't backing up your point is your refusal to address the main thrust of my point which is that you still have provided no evidence accredited US schools don't receive international recognition and acceptance.

PS. BTW Adam Smith U DOES offere religious studies: IE Theology, and from their own site:

Liberal Arts and Sciences:
ASU offers broad concentrations in the Liberal Arts. Concentrations include humanities, fine arts, music, social sciences, history, natural science, and mathematics. It is possible for a student to develop a major in a specific liberal arts field such as English or biology or religious studies or in interdisciplinary studies in liberal arts or in some specialized field, with the approval of the faculty.

http://www.adamsmith.edu/programs.html

PS. Religious Studies is not Theology. Try again.

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Ethics ... _medium=en